Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[CaptainPugwash]

In truth, that's the heart of the matter.

Do we have to bring our real-world morals with us into a fantasy video game setting?

TLDR: Opinions on this vary.

Good point and the reply of course is NO.
As an aside: what bugs me most about the ganking at Deciat is that it’s so easy to gank in a high sec system. You should have the ATR all over you as soon as you jump into the system, and with their super powerful police issued interdictor you shouldn’t be able to get anywhere near felicity’s place!

 

[Danquememe]

Good point and the reply of course is NO.
As an aside: what bugs me most about the ganking at Deciat is that it’s so easy to gank in a high sec system. You should have the ATR all over you as soon as you jump into the system, and with their super powerful police issued interdictor you shouldn’t be able to get anywhere near felicity’s place!

I honestly breaks my immersion that you can gank someone at Felicity, have the base's guns start firing at you, then jump to supercruise, drop back down, and everything is TOTALLY COOL. Like, not 1 minute ago, I ruthlessly slaughtered someone here and you shot at me. Now it's all good, and I can do it again?

I agree, "high security" should mean something, and it really doesn't. You have to get your notoriety so high before ATR starts even bothering to show up that it's effectively a joke.

With that said, these rules apply equally to all players, and we did learn earlier in this thread about BGS players and how they frequently have huge bounties, even larger (by a lot) than most gankers. Changes to ATR and system security would need to be balanced with those players, who are largely doing PVE stuff, in mind as well. Or there would need to start being separate rules for Open and Solo/PG. All of those things can and often are contentious in their own right.

 

[Danquememe]

What is the point of Open? If everyone runs and do not communicate, which taught from every source, on "how to avoid", if only one group of players has all the advantages, if neither group gets anything out of "interaction" (ganking)? Do you seriously think that mode should even exist?

I agree with this also. IMHO it would be better for the game if there were wholly separate PVP and PVE servers - sharing nothing, not BGS or PP or otherwise - and each Solo player had a universe all their own, totally disconnected from other players.

But, I understand such a statement can be wildly inflammatory. I'm not seeking to inflame anyone's tempers on the matter, that's just my "hot take" after 10 weeks in the game.

 

[Brrokk]

Good point and the reply of course is NO.
As an aside: what bugs me most about the ganking at Deciat is that it’s so easy to gank in a high sec system. You should have the ATR all over you as soon as you jump into the system, and with their super powerful police issued interdictor you shouldn’t be able to get anywhere near felicity’s place!

What bugs me about Deciat is what I said before. No-one replied, which makes me think I'm on target.

Maybe someone of the ganking persuasion would now like to admit it? Choosing to gank at Deciat - it's because that's the first engineer the game points people to out of the starter zone, isn't it? Before they know that ganking even happens? So you can meet inexperienced players who aren't expecting trouble, in weak ships before they've done engineering. Am I right? And the extra spice is: they may have just travelled many jumps carrying a meta-alloy which they spent some time finding?

If there's some other powerful reason for choosing Deciat, I'd like to know it. Because otherwise, the only reason I know of is a very discreditable one.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Which brings me to my question, namely: what is it you are hoping to achieve or contribute here, besides broadcasting your disdain for the playstyle I've identified myself as participating in, and my apparent failures to live up to your ideal of said playstyle? Is that it? Or is there something more substantive?

Again, there is no 'ideal of said playstyle'. I am not hoping to 'accomplish' anything, beyond pointing out a discrepency in what you say. There is no 'disdain for the playstyle you have identified as participating in.'

Are you trying to tell us that you believe ganking and/or "nonconsensual" PVP are bad for the game

Again: no. I am not sure how I can possibly be any clearer.

or that doing such things makes us bad people in real life as well as in game?

Again: no. I am not sure how I can possibly be any clearer.

That's certainly been a theme in this thread.

Then feel free to discuss this with people who make such claims, instead of projecting such ideas on me.

Or are you giving me feedback that you think I'm not being ruthless enough in my ganking

As I have told you over and over again: you, and anyone else, can play as they want.

That seems like what you're saying, but it just can't be right...

Because it isn't right. Because I have literally told you over and over that is not what I am saying. At some point you're just going to have to wrap you head around it.

why would you want me to be even less kind to the players I interact with?

In case somehow the concept still hasn't penetrated fully: I do not concern myself with how kind you or others should be towards other players in a game.

Or is it that you simply find it repugnant that a player will choose to play as a ganker and also try to help other players?

sigh

Is that my true crime? And I'm somehow lying about it to myself, because for you, those two things can't exist in the same person?

sigh

That's the part I need help with. Help me understand why I can't play this way, both ganking players and helping them?

As I've said here multiple times; anyone can play in any way they chose, as long as it is within the rules of the game.

I beg to differ; you seem to care quite a lot about what I'm doing

My position on the above issues has been clear since the start of this game, years before you even heard of this game. You may 'beg to differ' all you want, reality is not contingent on your approval. Or, for that matter, understanding. If you have an issue with what other people say, take it up with them. If you don't understand what someone says, ask for clarification without putting words in someone's mouth, misrepresenting their opinions or such nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

Some of those people I may be able to help in some small way.

I have a better idea that might help them more. Pretty revolutionary, but uh...don't kill em?

I'm pretty sure that you could achieve all you intend to in your 'help' just by sending that friend request without the whole 'death' thing getting in the way, and talking to em and sharing what ya got.

If you haven't figured it out yet - just making them go boom will probably make most of your gankees think you're just a jerk. It reduces the chances that they'll accept your not-magnanimous friend request afterwards, and in many cases it's blindingly obvious that it reduces your ability to 'help'.

Your strategy is pretty faulty if you're looking to help the majority of the people you gank. So you're probably not...?

 

[Danquememe]

If there's some other powerful reason for choosing Deciat, I'd like to know it. Because otherwise, the only reason I know of is a very discreditable one.

All of the Engineering systems have a better chance of attracting players to interact with (putting it euphemistically) than some random location. Over time, for reasons I don't fully understand, Deciat has become a sort of default option to look for pick-up PVP encounters.

Some of those encounters are definitely against the stereotypical Asp Explorer with 1 meta alloy aboard, but plenty others are because it's become a "known destination" to look for so-called organic PVP.

There are other choices, too - I really had a pleasant afternoon in San Tu yesterday, which is a beautiful system and in which I'll be leaving my FDL for the foreseeable future. Shinrarta has players, as well, and a lot of organic PVP happens in supercruise there.

But the long and the short of it is, I think it's much less about sealclubbing and much more about "finding people," when you really get down to it.

Take that for what you will, but that's my honest impression.

 

[Brrokk]

All of the Engineering systems have a better chance of attracting players to interact with (putting it euphemistically) than some random location. Over time, for reasons I don't fully understand, Deciat has become a sort of default option to look for pick-up PVP encounters.

Some of those encounters are definitely against the stereotypical Asp Explorer with 1 meta alloy aboard, but plenty others are because it's become a "known destination" to look for so-called organic PVP.

There are other choices, too - I really had a pleasant afternoon in San Tu yesterday, which is a beautiful system and in which I'll be leaving my FDL for the foreseeable future. Shinrarta has players, as well, and a lot of organic PVP happens in supercruise there.

But the long and the short of it is, I think it's much less about sealclubbing and much more about "finding people," when you really get down to it.

Take that for what you will, but that's my honest impression.

Well, it's just an amazing coincidence.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Well he probably means that its out of character, you cannot be really bad guy and help others. I have to say this thread has somewhat opened my thinking about gankers.

Mostly. Evil/good is an axis. With 'saintly good Hero' on one end, 'Big Nasty Evil Villain' on the other, and the rest in between. Anyone can chose any position on this axis. They can, if they want, explain their position but there is no requirement to do so. But just like you cannot claim to be the Saintly Goody-Good Hero and occassionally blow-up noobs when you had a bad day at the office you likewise cannot pretend to be the Truly Evil Ganker and spend part of your time helping others and such.

If you want to be the Evil Villain-type, your gonna to have to do the evil stuff. You will consider where explorers are likely to return to sell their data, and blow them up ruining their entire trip. You will outfit a DBE with dumbfires, check which Ruins are the most visited and go there to dumbfire SRV so they have to go all the way back to get new SRVs. You figure out which systems outside of the beginner area new players are most frequently send to on a mission from within the zone just to ambush them. In short: you invest your energy in being as evil as possible within the rules of the game. People will dislike you, people will consider you toxic, people will rant about you in the forum, tell you you are a real-life psychopath, petition FD to ban you and so forth. That is the inevitable consequence of being a truly 'evil cmdr'.

If that doesn't appeal to a player and they want to be a bit less evil that is (again), perfectly fine. Understandable, for sure. But it means you stop being dr. Evil and are at best Mini-Me. There is nothing inherently wrong about being Evil-lite, but it is worthwhile to clarify that that is what it is. And it is interesting to note that the easier and more meaningless the game has become over the years, the more watered-down and mild the 'Dark Side' has become.

 

[Mohrgan]

When looking for the softest/salty-est target, it has to be Deciat: Because even Explorers want g5 FSDs.

 

[Ian Skippy]

All of the Engineering systems have a better chance of attracting players to interact with (putting it euphemistically) than some random location. Over time, for reasons I don't fully understand, Deciat has become a sort of default option to look for pick-up PVP encounters.

In case you truly don't fully understand: Farseer is a tier-1 engineer offering one of the few mods explorers/traders desire. It is where the most players with the lowest skill and the least interest in combat can be found.

 

[Danquememe]

Your strategy is pretty faulty if you're looking to help the majority of the people you gank. So you're probably not...?

Unless I'm playing a game where PVP is explicitly part and parcel of its intended design?

I mean, we've been round and round about this.

Some folks simply cannon countenance the notion of any kind of PVP except mutually agreed upon engagements being "valid," but unfortunately, this is not something that FDev have chosen to build their game around.

Instead, we have a game where you can be engaged in PVP anywhere, anytime, for any or no reason, yadda yadda. We've all heard it before, I know.

So... within that context, how is offering the friend request somehow beyond the pale? In a game where random PVP can and does happen all the time, if that's "the game", how is it actually bad?

Maybe instead of fostering a culture of entitled outrage at the notion of PVP happening in the PVP mode of the game, we can try something different? Maybe we can accept that it's part of the fun of the game, and embrace it as such?

This is where I'm coming from. I already know plenty of people disagree, as is their right.

 

[Mohrgan]

Unless I'm playing a game where PVP is explicitly part and parcel of its intended design?

I mean, we've been round and round about this.

Some folks simply cannon countenance the notion of any kind of PVP except mutually agreed upon engagements being "valid," but unfortunately, this is not something that FDev have chosen to build their game around.

Instead, we have a game where you can be engaged in PVP anywhere, anytime, for any or no reason, yadda yadda. We've all heard it before, I know.

So... within that context, how is offering the friend request somehow beyond the pale? In a game where random PVP can and does happen all the time, if that's "the game", how is it actually bad?

Maybe instead of fostering a culture of entitled outrage at the notion of PVP happening in the PVP mode of the game, we can try something different? Maybe we can accept that it's part of the fun of the game, and embrace it as such?

This is where I'm coming from. I already know plenty of people disagree, as is their right.

To paraphrase the above: Play in Private Group.

 

[Danquememe]

In case you truly don't fully understand: Farseer is a tier-1 engineer offering one of the few mods explorers/traders desire. It is where the most players with the lowest skill and the least interest in combat can be found.

...And your point is?

That it's "not nice" to blow up other players?

I've asked you before, and you didn't reply, and maybe won't know, but what is holding you back from simply stating that you are completely not OK with any PVP except and unless it is agreed upon ahead of time? That this is the only "valid" PVP for you?

Because that's the only thing I can really take away from your statements.

Of course, if that's not what you mean, please feel free to explain it like I'm 5 to me. I probably need it laid out that simply or my tiny ganker brain will miss it. Again.

 

[Danquememe]

To paraphrase the above: Play in Private Group.

You're saying the PVPers should play in private group? Or people who don't want PVP?

 

[Mohrgan]

You're saying the PVPers should play in private group? Or people who don't want PVP?

Everybody should play in a Private Group. That would solve all of this "I got Ganked"/"I like to Gank" falderall. Especially the part where we learn from each other...

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Point is Farseer provides just easy targets. No challenge in blasting them. Even I could manage to do that. And yes many generally do not think people blasting nearly helpless targets either as great players or nice people to associate with.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

What bugs me about Deciat is what I said before. No-one replied, which makes me think I'm on target.

Maybe someone of the ganking persuasion would now like to admit it? Choosing to gank at Deciat - it's because that's the first engineer the game points people to out of the starter zone, isn't it? Before they know that ganking even happens? So you can meet inexperienced players who aren't expecting trouble, in weak ships before they've done engineering. Am I right? And the extra spice is: they may have just travelled many jumps carrying a meta-alloy which they spent some time finding?

If there's some other powerful reason for choosing Deciat, I'd like to know it. Because otherwise, the only reason I know of is a very discreditable one.

The trouble is, it’s not easy to gank someone in a decently outfitted ship, such is the advantage to the defender, so it’s noobs or well, not much. You will catch players off guard from time to time but not too often. What we need is a steady supply of anarchy systems that have some very high sell prices to make it worth risking your trade ship.

and yes comms!Any ganker must at least send some ganker comms during the kill, I expect nothing less!!

 

[Riverside]

Everybody should play in a Private Group. That would solve all of this "I got Ganked"/"I like to Gank" falderall. Especially the part where we learn from each other...

Removing Open would completely eliminate the problems raised in this thread. The game, played with like minded friends, works just fine.

There's probably some downside I'm not considering...

 

[Danquememe]

There is nothing inherently wrong about being Evil-lite, but it is worthwhile to clarify that that is what it is.

Is it really worthwhile? To whom? Are we really sure it's important to anyone besides Ian Skippy?

To the Asp Explorers I blow up, I'm quite sure it's a distinction without a difference.