Yeah, if I'm flying around and see a wanted ship, I might decide to have a go, or I might not. If it's a really small bounty I might pull them and tell them where the nearest interstellor factors is, especially if they're low-ranked. I've seen people AFK next to the star and interdicted them just to get them out of supercruise, because there are far worse people to be pulled by than myself.
Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand
- Thread starter Danquememe
- Start date
Get back to me when you get personally targeted by a group like that because of what you said on a forum.
Or continue being part of the problem. Up to you.
Is Dragsham a noob?
He's arguing that PvP is unbalanced in this game. "Its a shame cos potentially this game has a fab capacity for pvping" "pve boat vs murderboat", I find this hysterically inaccurate. We all work with the same tools here.
Convincing.
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2 things. Firstly ship builds. Here's the rub.. PvP build. End of argument.
Secondly. I'm referring to the fact that there's a criminal PvP element that have carte blanche on their activities all within the games constraints with no accountability.
Theirs no opposition as such. Aside from pvpers duelling or ganking or whatever.
I'm not saying PvP is bad just not balanced. If anything I think it could be alot Better for everyone if the game addressed it somehow...that's where l fall over. No suggestions as to what to do.
Something is missing.
Secondly. I'm referring to the fact that there's a criminal PvP element that have carte blanche on their activities all within the games constraints with no accountability.
Theirs no opposition as such. Aside from pvpers duelling or ganking or whatever.
I'm not saying PvP is bad just not balanced. If anything I think it could be alot Better for everyone if the game addressed it somehow...that's where l fall over. No suggestions as to what to do.
Something is missing.
Like I said before, lawfuls need a lot more vigilante commanders, that stand up against the outlaws. Unfortunately the ones you have are out in Colonia doing everything but protecting people from ganks. I remember the Altruists were doing decent work back in the day, I was based on their capital, but unfortunately, my contact over there stopped playing elite a good while ago. No clue if they still operate.
Gameplay changes are in no way warranted, already posted about the issues regarding that 2-3 pages back.
Basically, this is what's wrong with "PvP" in Elite. It is wildly in favour of meaningless (I don't count salt mining as one - if you do, you should perhaps contemplate your own drives and motives) ganking instead of having clear and reasonable risk/reward balance and "legit PvP". Finding a random victim not able to defend themselves: easy. Finding a criminal commander, let alone a specific one you have a beef with: nearly impossible. Blowing up a ship equipped for trading, mining or exploration: easy. Blowing up a PvP murder boat (or any combat ship willing to flee instead of fight to death) in order to collect the bounty: nearly impossible. Incentives to gank: high, if you're the sort of scumbag who gets their kicks from annoying and harassing other people. Incentives to PvP pirate, Open PP, or otherwise engage in PvP combat for in-game reasons: almost nonexistent.
The ganking problem would largely disappear, if the game simply offered incentives for "social PvP" and discouraged "antisocial" behaviour more - preferably in the form of the Bubble having an actual, proactive law-enforcement which would make the life of a murder hobo all-around harder. Which, for those who whine about lack of challenge in PvE and turn to murder for added challenge, should (logically thinking) welcome with open arms.
Encouragement? Awesome! The greater the hull hardness, the better the bounty multiplier is. Also, remove the player bounty payout cap, now that carriers markets are a thing, so people could try and collect the 400 million cr bounty off my wanted Corvette (that I gained through bgs, btw).
But no discouragement. Any further punishment would only
A.) fuel the gankers will to hunt down "carebares" even more, which would be completely valid in my book. They are getting booted out of open because of solo players, after all.
B.) destroy unconsenting PvP, that originated from bgs, powerplay, market use, etc.
I really don't get why people can't think this "punish the guy who murdered me for no reason, at least as far as I know" proposal through at all. Every single activity in this game can lead to PvP encounters (did a fun thread about that once, people lost their minds over this simple fact
) from ambushes to mutually accepted dogfights. Part of open. It would be completely messed up, if suddenly, you try to protect your minor faction from this not-responding-clueless-Commander, who actively works against your bgs goals, but as soon as you interdicted him, you lost all ship insurance, and also have eight ATR level NPCs tailing you. I'm giving these examples, because they are popular proposals on the forums.The game can't differentiate random murdersprees from day-by-day PvP. And it shouldn't have to. I'm done being a broken record on this thread. This is going absolutely nowhere.
Reminds me of when I forgot little fenderbender fine, it changed to bounty. Had not many hours on game that point, and was flying ASP X. Well somebody with an Anaconda collected that bounty. If that was bounty hunting, Anaconda pilots ammo costed more than that bounty
Doesn't matter how high the bounty. Stop right there criminal scumReminds me of when I forgot little fenderbender fine, it changed to bounty. Had not many hours on game that point, and was flying ASP X. Well somebody with an Anaconda collected that bounty. If that was bounty hunting, Anaconda pilots ammo costed more than that bounty
Reminds me of when I forgot little fenderbender fine, it changed to bounty. Had not many hours on game that point, and was flying ASP X. Well somebody with an Anaconda collected that bounty. If that was bounty hunting, Anaconda pilots ammo costed more than that bounty
You filthy ganker...
It is a bit like the NPC BH'er interdicting me on the way to my next scan mission as I had 300cr bounty...Doesn't matter how high the bounty. Stop right there criminal scum
Well I WAS legit target, and that lesson really teached importance of paying fines at time. (For relatively newbies, at that time money was way harder to earn than nowadays, unless one used various short lived money making schemes. I considered mission paying something like 100 000 a very good deal. So that rebuy really stung my finances.)
What kind of player interactions was I expecting from PvP? Meaningful, engaging and consequential:-
- Meaningful in that it should ideally be for some purpose within the game, and the game mechanics should orchestrate PvP for those interested.
- Engaging in that it should revolved around gameplay and mechanics offering some purpose and depth to PvP.
- Consequential in that mindless illegal destruction should have logical and measured negative outcomes to rein it in.
Six year in, and little has been done to the mechanics in ED to orchestrate meaningful PvP, and to truly logically penalise mindless PvP (ganking). Such a shame! Meanwhile buckets of time for Generation Ships, Multicrew and various iterations of Engineering which screwed up PvE and PvP balancing to simply add a swarm of shallow grind loops.
The fact when you talk about PvP in ED most CMDRs simply think of ganking is so telling IMHO. Why is it not about orchestrated PvP combat scenarios as part of Powerplay? Why are there not Powerplay tasks utilising CQC fighter type gameplay to allow CMDRs to holo-me into opposing fighters within interesting combat scenarios to dictate a Powerplay outcome?
Meanwhile, Piracy is just as muddled, shallow and ill-considered as PvP in ED. It needs mechanics and depth to make it engaging.
And overall, illegal destruction in ALL systems except true anarchy systems should ramp up your Criminal Reputaton, which would quickly start meaning you cannot dock at an increasing number of stations. Be denied access to an increasing number of systems. And are hunted more and more quickly by the ATR. And that Criminal Reputation should take weeks/months to reduce.
At the release of ED there was so much promise to the combat and the PvP that could be offered in the years to come. Six years on?
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Are you sure?
I thought PP PVP gave PP bounties that onl;y opposing PP players could see or receive and does not give a normal criminal bounty? So the game has a consensual PVP mode, as well as the Crimes On/Off button. 2 different ways it differentiates. So now you can perhaps change the record, or even better dont, but just listen instead.
OP you should have the answer now.
All depends on what your expectation of 'encounter other players' is.
PVPers - expect PVP combat from day 1 as you yourself did. You expect ambushes, ganking, murder etc etc for no reason. It doesnt surprise you when it happens.
PVEers - expect other players to be friendly, they can wing up or run missions together, explore together etc etc It comes as a big surprise they get killed with no warning and no reason. Hence the usual question is why?
It shouldn't take long for most people (PVE) to realise why they got killed and just move on. A small % get annoyed or upset or post about it.
It shouldn't take long for most people (PVP) to realise why the small % of unsuspecting opponents gets angry. Most just move on.
It shouldnt take long for most people (PVP & PVE) to realise why Deciat is probably responsible for more Solo players than any other system, why this is bad and why it should be stopped in this one system primarily.
Some people violently resist any sort of consequences to themselves (PVP button, invincible mode, higher C&P, more police, barring from systems). Yep, both sides.
Some people for some reason I havent worked out, explode at the thought of extra words being added to the Open login screen reminding the PVE crowd that Open includes ambushes and attacks by other players not just co-op play, thats all. Makes no difference to the game just tells some people what 'encounter other players' means in this game, just in case you were expecting something different, just makes you aware is all. Solo players still go to Solo, PVE players know what to expect and the vast majority will still click Open.
Murder in this game is pretty much defined as attacking a clean player with crimes on. Thats the PF de-facto definition as thats where the bounties are applied. Saying you're not a murderer or a murder-hobo is just plain wrong however you define it, the PF outweighs you. PP is ruled over by a Power and has slightly different perspective, its fine to kill enemies of the Power but kill allies or same Power and you get demerited, so they too have a de-facto definition of murder, of 'legal and illegal' kills. All of these are in-game and overrule you.
And that circular argument I posted earlier in the thread has come to life on this very page, you see what I meant about your friends letting you down? It may be possible to have a debate with you, it seems not to be with certain people and they end up hijacking or derailing the thread. And some PVE are easy to hook so it quickly takes off.
I still think the entire thread is a hidden 'Why you should play in Open' thread but I admire the effort and the different tactic, just like I love the Gankademy. But your friends let you down, if only they could keep their mouths shut on this one thread and let you have a go.
This. This is the PVP crowd's problem to fix, the association or their PR image and the above post is a darn fine step. Most people when they can distinguish wont give two hoots about PVP besides wondering if they can get an escort or have a go now and again. PVP is not damaging to the game in any way, it enhances it and makes the galaxy more alive.
Hmm didn't think of powerplay bounties, though my argument stands for every other encounter, and the one specific occasion I gave as an example.
"you try to protect your minor faction from this not-responding-clueless-Commander, who actively works against your bgs goals, but as soon as you interdicted him, you lost all ship insurance, and also have eight ATR level NPCs tailing you."
Obviously, the one I decided to murder will want to have crimes on, and I'll be committing a murder attempt ingame. My intentions will probably be ignored by the target, or are overwritten by his own bad experience. The game has absolutely no way of knowing the reason of my advance. It's clearly not brainless murdering. So we have a problem right there, if I was punished for this.
Of course, in most cases, people leave our territory upon receiving a warning. But I've had to murder, or pad camp many people, that were harming our interests, and refused to leave. That's mainly why I'm not a fan of further non-player punishment.
Maybe because PVP is not the response to counter the BGS activities?
Let's assume it's a one on one.
One commander is actively working against your PMF. And it is only you to counter his activities.
If you try to get him in PVP you lost. Because killing commanders have no positive effect on your faction whatsoever.
If you try to get him in PVP you don't win anything, at best you will reduce your losses.
To counter his activities you need to work your BGS, better/more that your opponent.
The point I'm trying to make is PVP is so disconnected from the game objectives, that it simply does not make any sense.
Sure, you can use any pretext to engage in PVP, but there is still not a single game objective that will ask you to kill a Commander and there is no direct win in terms of game objectives if you do so.
PVP is slapped over a PVE game, with little consideration i may say.
The problem always comes down to why players are being attacked. Take the Deciat situation, it is daft to make a run in open for Felicity in what looks like a weak ship. The 'victim' of the attack doesn't get why their ship is being attacked and normally falls quite quickly to the wing of engineered corvettes or anaconda's that's jumped them. Normally, there is no threat or piracy involved, just destruction. The ganker just comes across as a bully, out to spoil other people's game, which is why the PvP crowd gets such a bad rep. Victim's might feel justified to combat log, or even quit the game, if they feel that they're just getting bullied.
I still feel that the C&P still needs further enhancement to smooth this out. For example, almost intimidate response of appropriate security forces in High Sec systems, it will give the victim a chance to escape. There would be slower response times in Med Sec and Low Sec systems but by then the 'victim' player should know the level of risk their taking and, of course, Anarchy systems everything goes. In fact, I wish they'd up the number of NPC pirate attacks, dependant on a system's security level. That would force players not to Min/Max their trading ships and take the possibility of attack seriously.
It would also be nice for players who have notoriety to have their location appear in the galaxy map. That way PvP Bounty Hunters can go looking for them and when the notorious player's ship has been destroyed, any victims of their actions are notified that they've been delt with.
On the more positive side, I've been playing in Open Powerplay for the last six months and really enjoying the fact that I've got opposing players after me. I'm expecting to be attacked now and have a ship built to deal with this.
I still feel that the C&P still needs further enhancement to smooth this out. For example, almost intimidate response of appropriate security forces in High Sec systems, it will give the victim a chance to escape. There would be slower response times in Med Sec and Low Sec systems but by then the 'victim' player should know the level of risk their taking and, of course, Anarchy systems everything goes. In fact, I wish they'd up the number of NPC pirate attacks, dependant on a system's security level. That would force players not to Min/Max their trading ships and take the possibility of attack seriously.
It would also be nice for players who have notoriety to have their location appear in the galaxy map. That way PvP Bounty Hunters can go looking for them and when the notorious player's ship has been destroyed, any victims of their actions are notified that they've been delt with.
On the more positive side, I've been playing in Open Powerplay for the last six months and really enjoying the fact that I've got opposing players after me. I'm expecting to be attacked now and have a ship built to deal with this.
Its only 'daft' if you know about Deciat in the first place, if you just play the game without YT or forums theres no indication at all in the game remember.
Well that just not going to work is it? Id drop that like a lead balloon if I were you and try something else.
Lucky you, I played for 9 months in Open PP and got attacked once, by my own side! Just to emphasise, if I attack back i get a demerit. Thats not PVP.
No you're not.
Lol, I approve of this extremely hi-tech, superluminal relativistic version of carrying the sleeping baby back to bed and pulling the blankets over.