Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

The problem always comes down to why players are being attacked. Take the Deciat situation, it is daft to make a run in open for Felicity in what looks like a weak ship. The 'victim' of the attack doesn't get why their ship is being attacked and normally falls quite quickly to the wing of engineered corvettes or anaconda's that's jumped them. Normally, there is no threat or piracy involved, just destruction. The ganker just comes across as a bully, out to spoil other people's game, which is why the PvP crowd gets such a bad rep. Victim's might feel justified to combat log, or even quit the game, if they feel that they're just getting bullied.

I still feel that the C&P still needs further enhancement to smooth this out. For example, almost intimidate response of appropriate security forces in High Sec systems, it will give the victim a chance to escape. There would be slower response times in Med Sec and Low Sec systems but by then the 'victim' player should know the level of risk their taking and, of course, Anarchy systems everything goes. In fact, I wish they'd up the number of NPC pirate attacks, dependant on a system's security level. That would force players not to Min/Max their trading ships and take the possibility of attack seriously.

It would also be nice for players who have notoriety to have their location appear in the galaxy map. That way PvP Bounty Hunters can go looking for them and when the notorious player's ship has been destroyed, any victims of their actions are notified that they've been delt with.

On the more positive side, I've been playing in Open Powerplay for the last six months and really enjoying the fact that I've got opposing players after me. I'm expecting to be attacked now and have a ship built to deal with this.
Bounty hunting is a waste of time in this game because if they don't want to die, it's impossible to secure a 1v1 kill a competent CMDR in any open-ready build if they are awake. It's impossible to secure a wing gank on a competent CMDR in any open-combat ready build if they are awake. The game needs a balance pass, and any log-off while in danger needs to result in ship destruction and all that entails. Then we'll start seeing some bounty hunting. Of course, it's totally disincentivized with the 2M cap.

The best proposal for meaningful pvp and a working crime/punishment system came years ago from SDC. They sent it to FDev and in response we were all gifted with the notoriety system. Yay.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/7d4mbl/sdc_presents_crime_and_punishment/
 
How many PVPers and Gankers support this bit of it?

Punishments
We touched on this briefly throughout but here will go in-depth into fines, bounties and punishments.

  • All fines for everything except murder need to be reduced, with fines for smuggling seeing a massive reduction. No fine should be bigger than that for killing in cold blood.
  • The fine for murder should be increased to a minimum of 100,000cr
  • 50% of a victim's rebuy will be added to the murders bounty. 25% of this will be returned to the victim (meaning; all clean players get a 25% reduction in their rebuy if killed by another player) the other 25% will be awarded to the successful bounty hunter who kills the murderer.
  • Only player bounty hunters can collect player bounties.
  • Criminals lose docking privileges at any starport/base that is controlled by a faction aligned with any of the superpowers.
  • Bounties remain with a player forever. They will go dormant if no crimes are committed for a period of 3 months.
  • Dormant bounties will become active once again if a serious crime (player killing) is committed or if the player gets KWS by a player bounty hunter. (No crime goes unpunished from here on out)
  • There is no way to clear a bounty other than have it collected by a player bounty hunter.
  • Criminals are labelled as such, so from now on they will be wanted in every system
 
The game needs a balance pass, and any log-off while in danger needs to result in ship destruction and all that entails. Then we'll start seeing some bounty hunting. Of course, it's totally disincentivized with the 2M cap.

The log-off while in danger, I completely agree with.

But if you can come up with a way to stop players who rack up huge bounties, just so their mates can cash them in, then the 2M cap will probably be removed.
 
Given the fact that the game has no way to determine whether a drop is malicious, destroying a ship for loss of connectivity seems ill advised.

It is a known fact that the game sometimes crashes during instancing.
 
How many PVPers and Gankers support this bit of it?

Punishments
We touched on this briefly throughout but here will go in-depth into fines, bounties and punishments.

  • All fines for everything except murder need to be reduced, with fines for smuggling seeing a massive reduction. No fine should be bigger than that for killing in cold blood.
  • The fine for murder should be increased to a minimum of 100,000cr
  • 50% of a victim's rebuy will be added to the murders bounty. 25% of this will be returned to the victim (meaning; all clean players get a 25% reduction in their rebuy if killed by another player) the other 25% will be awarded to the successful bounty hunter who kills the murderer.
  • Only player bounty hunters can collect player bounties.
  • Criminals lose docking privileges at any starport/base that is controlled by a faction aligned with any of the superpowers.
  • Bounties remain with a player forever. They will go dormant if no crimes are committed for a period of 3 months.
  • Dormant bounties will become active once again if a serious crime (player killing) is committed or if the player gets KWS by a player bounty hunter. (No crime goes unpunished from here on out)
  • There is no way to clear a bounty other than have it collected by a player bounty hunter.
  • Criminals are labelled as such, so from now on they will be wanted in every system
Everyone, pretty much, who has read it. Outlaws don't have a problem with being treated as outlaws. The problem is there's no meaningful gameplay associated. We collectively have a laugh anytime FDev tries some band-aid fix to implement stiffer penalties because it always comes down harder on the PVEers than it does on us. Meaningful gameplay would be a tremendous shift for the better for everyone. Don't ascribe to the twisted idea that outlaws are just out to ruin other peoples' days. That's a crock. We've just done all the other stuff and occasionally pass time by rolling the dice and killing randos because why not?

Given the fact that the game has no way to determine whether a drop is malicious, destroying a ship for loss of connectivity seems ill advised.

It is a known fact that the game sometimes crashes during instancing.
You don't say? Fixing the game isn't a bad idea, either. Maybe they should get on that while they're at it. In any case a rebuy is a small price to pay to restore piracy and fair play to the game. Especially since it's easy to implement a 3-strike system for resetting your ship/data/etc. if they want to be bleeding hearts about it.
 
Given the fact that the game has no way to determine whether a drop is malicious, destroying a ship for loss of connectivity seems ill advised.

It is a known fact that the game sometimes crashes during instancing.

Most drops I've found normally happen when the instancing is starting i.e. a successful interdiction in super cruise or if someone joins an instance. Those can be captured and exceptions made. However, if someone logs out during combat (soft log), they should get a warning that this will result in their ship's destruction and if they go through with it then boom. That's the easy one to detect.

The harder one is if someone F4's the client or pulls their cable out during combat. Maybe it's time that we assume that a network loss is a deliberate combat log and the player has a audit-log they can use to appeal and restore their account. The problem is, we only have no way of knowing how often these genuine network loss occur and we wouldn't want to over stretch the support guys dealing with appeals all the time.
 
How many PVPers and Gankers support this bit of it?

Punishments
We touched on this briefly throughout but here will go in-depth into fines, bounties and punishments.

  • All fines for everything except murder need to be reduced, with fines for smuggling seeing a massive reduction. No fine should be bigger than that for killing in cold blood.
  • The fine for murder should be increased to a minimum of 100,000cr
  • 50% of a victim's rebuy will be added to the murders bounty. 25% of this will be returned to the victim (meaning; all clean players get a 25% reduction in their rebuy if killed by another player) the other 25% will be awarded to the successful bounty hunter who kills the murderer.
  • Only player bounty hunters can collect player bounties.
  • Criminals lose docking privileges at any starport/base that is controlled by a faction aligned with any of the superpowers.
  • Bounties remain with a player forever. They will go dormant if no crimes are committed for a period of 3 months.
  • Dormant bounties will become active once again if a serious crime (player killing) is committed or if the player gets KWS by a player bounty hunter. (No crime goes unpunished from here on out)
  • There is no way to clear a bounty other than have it collected by a player bounty hunter.
  • Criminals are labelled as such, so from now on they will be wanted in every system
CRs are not a punishment to most CMDRs. Increasing bounties are are simply open to abuse. ie: Ganker X kills Ganker Y to clear X and get CRs.

The only punishments IMHO that will deter psychotic destruction is a reputation that increases with any/all illegal destructions. As the reputation increases more and more station deny access, and more and more systems deny access. The ATR turn up quicker to any acts of violence for the individual, and indeed at a certain level, the individual is simply highlighted to all other CMDRs as a known psycho. Done!

Finally the reputation takes weeks/months to reduce...
 
It would mean banishment from Deciat, Shin Dez and a host of other 'soft' targets for 3 months minimum potentially forever if KWS reactivates it and you dont get killed by a legit bounty hunter..
Yeah, but there would be so much actually interesting outlaw gameplay so nobody would care! TBH I'd assume a fair amount of outlaws would switch to lawful gameplay because that becomes fun in this proposal, too. Or more likely, play each role as the mood suits them, according to the status their CMDR has earned according to the game's mechanics (not some arbitrary hit list maintained by some neckbeard in his mom's basement). Nobody on the outlaw side takes the RP thing very seriously with the exception of some out-of-work pirates.

Everyone just wants to do the fun things in the game. For end-game PVPers, sometimes (usually) that means super sweaty PVP, sometimes chill, but maybe not completely mindless chill (PVE). Ganking is BORING, but it's the only activity that straddles the line between low-key gameplay (like PVE) and the element of interaction and potential surprise that comes with PVP. For some people, that's the sweet spot, and they play that way all/most of the time. The SDC proposal offers so many other gameplay mechanics that basic ganking would become obsolete overnight. Keep in mind that SDC who wrote this proposal is the most notorious gank squad the game has known.
 
Most drops I've found normally happen when the instancing is starting i.e. a successful interdiction in super cruise or if someone joins an instance. Those can be captured and exceptions made. However, if someone logs out during combat (soft log), they should get a warning that this will result in their ship's destruction and if they go through with it then boom. That's the easy one to detect.

The harder one is if someone F4's the client or pulls their cable out during combat. Maybe it's time that we assume that a network loss is a deliberate combat log and the player has a audit-log they can use to appeal and restore their account. The problem is, we only have no way of knowing how often these genuine network loss occur and we wouldn't want to over stretch the support guys dealing with appeals all the time.
I agree. I'm thinking a three strike system can work. Let it be like 3 extra lives to last the entire game, totally automated, resets your ship to its status before your last death. With the economy being what it is in-game, nobody will be butthurt enough to waste one of those resets on a rebuy. If they lose half a year's exploration data or something, then they can use one of their 3 lives. If they waste one on a free life after a combat log, honestly, that's a bigger price to pay than the rebuy, so the ganker's happy, too.
 
The harder one is if someone F4's the client or pulls their cable out during combat. Maybe it's time that we assume that a network loss is a deliberate combat log and the player has a audit-log they can use to appeal and restore their account. The problem is, we only have no way of knowing how often these genuine network loss occur and we wouldn't want to over stretch the support guys dealing with appeals all the time.
Never been a fan of guilty until... especially when, as you point out, innocence is completely at the discretion of someone else. Rather like arming the police exclusively with grenade launchers loaded with frag grenades.

"Stop, or I'll shoot!"
##foomp## ##foomp## ##foomp##
"Heh, got'm!"

Yep, and the 20 innocent bystanders near him...

If nothing else, think of the PR nightmare. "And as a preventative measure for combat logging, we'll automatically destroy any ship that disconnects from combat, regardless of the reason, with no guarantee that your appeal will succeed when the disconnect wasn't intentional!"

When you throw in a lag generator, this could take griefing to a whole new level. Now, instead of actually having to kill the other party, you lag them out of the instance, and poof, all gone.
 
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How many PVPers and Gankers support this bit of it?

Punishments
We touched on this briefly throughout but here will go in-depth into fines, bounties and punishments.

  • All fines for everything except murder need to be reduced, with fines for smuggling seeing a massive reduction. No fine should be bigger than that for killing in cold blood.
  • The fine for murder should be increased to a minimum of 100,000cr
  • 50% of a victim's rebuy will be added to the murders bounty. 25% of this will be returned to the victim (meaning; all clean players get a 25% reduction in their rebuy if killed by another player) the other 25% will be awarded to the successful bounty hunter who kills the murderer.
  • Only player bounty hunters can collect player bounties.
  • Criminals lose docking privileges at any starport/base that is controlled by a faction aligned with any of the superpowers.
  • Bounties remain with a player forever. They will go dormant if no crimes are committed for a period of 3 months.
  • Dormant bounties will become active once again if a serious crime (player killing) is committed or if the player gets KWS by a player bounty hunter. (No crime goes unpunished from here on out)
  • There is no way to clear a bounty other than have it collected by a player bounty hunter.
  • Criminals are labelled as such, so from now on they will be wanted in every system

Fine by my criminal standards, if lawfuls:
-pay hourly parking fees when docked at a station (even when offline) (after every ship).
-pay taxes, like the responsible citizens they are, 33% of all incomes, if we take the Hungarian standards.
-have to immediately submit to every single authority scan, and if they refuse, they'll be labelled a criminal for 6 months.
-cannot go over 100m/s in any jurisdiction, without paying a fine, consisting of every m/s unit x the time they spent speeding x their daily income. Plus they'll always have to wait in queue to dock. :giggle:
-cannot purchase any hardpoints, without appropriate gun licenses, that require a weekly 7 million credits.
-have to actually serve ingame prison time in case they get did a goof.

No you're not.

Common sense is wasted on you. I'll be enjoying the final hours of this dumpster fire, however!
 
I agree. I'm thinking a three strike system can work

This has been extensively discussed and no, it will not work.
If there was something that would work FD would have implemented. Game is 6 years old now and nothing changed.
IIRC FD was warned even in the pre-launch phase about clogging.

Get over it.
It's a direct cause of the networking model employed by the game.
A model designed to be cheap so FD can offer something along the lines of a Online Experience without resorting to subscriptions and/or ingame micro-transactions.
 
CRs are not a punishment to most CMDRs. Increasing bounties are are simply open to abuse. ie: Ganker X kills Ganker Y to clear X and get CRs.

The only punishments IMHO that will deter psychotic destruction is a reputation that increases with any/all illegal destructions. As the reputation increases more and more station deny access, and more and more systems deny access. The ATR turn up quicker to any acts of violence for the individual, and indeed at a certain level, the individual is simply highlighted to all other CMDRs as a known psycho. Done!

Finally the reputation takes weeks/months to reduce...
But with the introduction of Fleet Carriers into the game recently a notorious CMDR doesn't need access to stations particularly as refit & repair as well as bond/explo data being cashed in on-board... The only purpose stations would have is to provide missions as everything else is possible from the FC.
 
Basically, this is what's wrong with "PvP" in Elite. It is wildly in favour of meaningless (I don't count salt mining as one - if you do, you should perhaps contemplate your own drives and motives) ganking instead of having clear and reasonable risk/reward balance and "legit PvP". Finding a random victim not able to defend themselves: easy. Finding a criminal commander, let alone a specific one you have a beef with: nearly impossible. Blowing up a ship equipped for trading, mining or exploration: easy. Blowing up a PvP murder boat (or any combat ship willing to flee instead of fight to death) in order to collect the bounty: nearly impossible. Incentives to gank: high, if you're the sort of scumbag who gets their kicks from annoying and harassing other people. Incentives to PvP pirate, Open PP, or otherwise engage in PvP combat for in-game reasons: almost nonexistent.

The ganking problem would largely disappear, if the game simply offered incentives for "social PvP" and discouraged "antisocial" behaviour more - preferably in the form of the Bubble having an actual, proactive law-enforcement which would make the life of a murder hobo all-around harder. Which, for those who whine about lack of challenge in PvE and turn to murder for added challenge, should (logically thinking) welcome with open arms.
All of this. The bounty cap is crap, you can't ever expect there to be real emergent player-to-player content, including PvP, if your game actively "punishes" you for even trying to NOT be "that guy"
 
This has been extensively discussed and no, it will not work.
Welp, what can I say? I've been out-logicked here by a true genius. Win some, lose some, eh?

If there was something that would work FD would have implemented. Game is 6 years old now and nothing changed.
IIRC FD was warned even in the pre-launch phase about clogging.
Have you played this game before? Just asking, because there are many obvious things that absolutely work that FDev can implement and have not. Balancing shield boosters, eliminating transfer times, buffing hull tanks, incentivized open play, etc. Simple, basic game balance or quality-of-life issues.

Get over it.
No.

It's a direct cause of the networking model employed by the game.
A model designed to be cheap so FD can offer something along the lines of a Online Experience without resorting to subscriptions and/or ingame micro-transactions.
They are profitable enough to maintain servers without adding arx to the game and breaking it in the process, or as you call it "ingame micro-transactions." At this point, it's just too big a job for them to rewrite the game I guess. Regardless, the fact that their architecture can't prevent cheating scumbags from clogging doesn't preclude them from implementing consequences. If people cry about it, let them. It will improve the immersion and gameplay quality across the board, so they'll get over it.
 
Fine by my criminal standards, if lawfuls:
-pay hourly parking fees when docked at a station (even when offline) (after every ship).
-pay taxes, like the responsible citizens they are, 33% of all incomes, if we take the Hungarian standards.

No problem with this as credits mean nothing to me at my stage. I know you're being facetious but not facetious enough unfortunately, I want a realistic hard long term game. Does punish the noobs obviously and those not at my stage so I will have to say 'I'm Out' on that basis. .

-have to immediately submit to every single authority scan, and if they refuse, they'll be labelled a criminal for 6 months.
-cannot go over 100m/s in any jurisdiction, without paying a fine, consisting of every m/s unit x the time they spent speeding x their daily income. Plus they'll always have to wait in queue to dock. :giggle:
-cannot purchase any hardpoints, without appropriate gun licenses, that require a weekly 7 million credits.

Facetiousness level reached successfully.

-have to actually serve ingame prison time in case they get did a goof.

I actually like the prison idea. Its the one thing I can see that is a good if not brilliant idea in another game that isn't a game, more mysterious than Raxxla itself about what it is what it isnt and what it will or wont actually contain or if anyone will ever find it or ever find out what it actually is or where its been all these years....Crikey Star Citizen Is RAXXLA!
 
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