But muh open only!
Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand
- Thread starter Danquememe
- Start date
and possilbly the longest ToS violation too....but I don't know of such matters, just what I read. I am merely just a utensil for NaCl
Sort of, yes. I see the kind of sealclubbing you get in places like Deciat as not that different from mining for billions or carpeting regions of the bubble with one faction, or tagging entire nebulae.
They are just playing their own way, and often are pretty good at what they do because they do it a lot, and I respect that skill. I just wish there were some in-lore purpose to it (I'm sure sometimes there is) more often. I try to do things that will help the community overall, sometimes that is at the expense of others. Your Deciat Ganker types get new recruits to PvP from meeting newbies, just in a different way
Sure, same as any of the other activities I described. It's not how I play though.
You think there is, because you play in a different way. I don't, I consider them analogous. Play your own way, let them play theirs
Some that get ganked in Deciat rise to the occasion, learn how to fight & enjoy it. Just as a large player group will recruit new players but crush others, just as 'helpful' how-to guides (for a game where half the fun is in figuring stuff out) encourage new players to meta their way through the game, skipping all that cool stuff. I don't mind them doing this, I just don't do it myself
I agree with this wholeheartedly; I don't mean to throw FDev under the bus, and I've really only played one other true MMO (which was far harsher than Elite, to be sure - no rebuys, etc), but the choices around how Open have been implemented alongside the P2P, instancing, blocking and other issues really does lead to what feels like an odd duck of a game.
As this thread has demonstrated, these choices result in the mixing of people looking for co-op PVE experiences with people looking for "kill 'em all" PVP experiences. Per the mode's own "rules", neither of these groups are "playing the game wrong," but obviously there is an innate tension both introduced and exacerbated by these choices.
Combine that with progression that is literally a grind much of the time, and I have to almost wonder, mostly in jest, whether the goal of the arrangement is not, in fact, to create a salt mine.
From my CMDR's perspective, encounters with other CMDRs are much more likely to be cooperative than otherwise. Of course, hostile encounters, or the possibility thereof, may also inspire cooperation that wouldn't otherwise be necessary.
From my perspective as a player, even hostile encounters between characters are ultimately cooperative, as long as there is no cheating or OOC harassment involved.
Modes other than Open also don't exclude interaction, they just make it more abstract.
The game doesn't have an economy and the contextual rewards of mining, past a very limited degree, are at least as absent as those of seal clubbing.
From my perspective as a player, even hostile encounters between characters are ultimately cooperative, as long as there is no cheating or OOC harassment involved.
Modes other than Open also don't exclude interaction, they just make it more abstract.
The game doesn't have an economy and the contextual rewards of mining, past a very limited degree, are at least as absent as those of seal clubbing.
I only play in Open, and so I'm open to anything that occurs there.
I'm in Australia though, so at the times I'm playing, it's very rare that I encounter anyone.
I don't avoid or seek out high player activity areas. I just go wherever my gameplay takes me (I'm mostly a trader).
Recently though, I went to Deciat to catch up with Fel, expecting to have to fight my way in and out, but nope. Didn't see a virtual soul.
The modes are a two-edged sword. They allow freedom for different players and play styles, but they also segregate the player base greatly, which makes the game world feel very empty, even for a space setting.
Personally, I'd have preferred if the game mechanics were better geared to allow for everyone to be in the same mode. It would require far better game design than what Frontier have thus far demonstrated, and it still wouldn't please everyone, but I think overall the game would benefit for it.
I'm in Australia though, so at the times I'm playing, it's very rare that I encounter anyone.
I don't avoid or seek out high player activity areas. I just go wherever my gameplay takes me (I'm mostly a trader).
Recently though, I went to Deciat to catch up with Fel, expecting to have to fight my way in and out, but nope. Didn't see a virtual soul.
The modes are a two-edged sword. They allow freedom for different players and play styles, but they also segregate the player base greatly, which makes the game world feel very empty, even for a space setting.
Personally, I'd have preferred if the game mechanics were better geared to allow for everyone to be in the same mode. It would require far better game design than what Frontier have thus far demonstrated, and it still wouldn't please everyone, but I think overall the game would benefit for it.
I hear this loud and clear. One of the things that really surprised me, as I got further into the game, was the realization that even if I pledged to a power - like, Aisling Duval, so I could get the prismatic powerplay shields - it wouldn't make a whit of difference to my actual in-game experience. I.e. I can still happily go to ports in "Hostile" star systems, be allowed to dock, pay the same price I always did, etc. It literally did not matter once during the entire month of real-life time I spent pledged. That was, honestly, very immersion-breaking for me.
In the other MMO I played - Naval Action - your character is a member of a major power, or you can choose to be part of the "Pirate" faction. You can work together with your fellow faction members to try to capture territory in meaningful areas (i.e. those that have access to resources that are important for crafting ships, for example) and then hold them. You could not, however, enter an enemy port to dock, and if you even got too close, you'd most likely be attacked immediately by both NPC and human players. That made perfect sense, both in terms of the game's setting and its gameplay mechanics.
Honestly, even after 6 weeks in Elite, I have only a vague - and probably incorrect - understanding of the BGS and PowerPlay mechanics. They simply have no impact on me at all. I'm not saying that they aren't or shouldn't be important gameplay elements for other players, I'm just saying they have no apparent influence on anything I can or can't do in the game (other than not having access to PP modules until the "immersion timer" is up).
I feel like this is a missed opportunity, and because of it, it makes any PVP - even after leaving out the issues with P2P, instancing, blocking, etc - sort of empty of in-game meaning. Obviously it can mean something to the pilots and squadrons involved, but it feels lacking in larger meaning. And I totally get where you're coming from with your resulting criticism; you're not wrong.
In my quieter moments, when this game happens to be the subject of my thoughts, that's Occam's Razor.
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.....
I was a ganker in the delightful forest in Dark Souls. Forest broing was great fun.
So I get the ganker mindset, I like lopsided contests in my favour too. Though in this game I'd probably consider a shieldless trader trying to make a living, unworthy of warming my lasers.
Certain parties who's name has appeared regularly, are a little much, especially considering the role they're supposed to be fulfilling.
I'm quite happy in solo though, Elite is and always will be a solo experience for me as it was before live service garbage appears. That and most MMO players are given to high levels of degeneracy, I've no time for it.
I was a ganker in the delightful forest in Dark Souls. Forest broing was great fun.
So I get the ganker mindset, I like lopsided contests in my favour too. Though in this game I'd probably consider a shieldless trader trying to make a living, unworthy of warming my lasers.
Certain parties who's name has appeared regularly, are a little much, especially considering the role they're supposed to be fulfilling.
I'm quite happy in solo though, Elite is and always will be a solo experience for me as it was before live service garbage appears. That and most MMO players are given to high levels of degeneracy, I've no time for it.
This is the frustration of CQC; it's a really neat idea, hampered by strange choices about which ships could be used, and so forth.
A consequence-free arena combat mode not hindered by an extremely limited range of the ships (with an even more limited range of build options) would be a great way for people to experience PVP. Many of the PVP players I know would love a mode that would let them test out different ship builds, etc, without having to spend literally hundreds of hours unlocking engineers and grinding materials.
I have been accused of Stockholm Syndrome more than once due to my "Cinderalla Ganker Story", and I find it funny. But it's an entirely true story; the guy who ganked me, and his squadron, have gone on to tremendously help me progress in the game, and have become real friends who I look forward to getting onto voice comms with, etc., every time I play. They are neat people, an international group from around the world, all intelligent, well-spoken and thoughtful. Who are, as it turns out, also gankers. Go figure!
I also do feel that the specific choices made around how PVP have been implemented in the game result in a harsh learning experience for some players. As with many things in Elite, it seems one often has to leverage out-of-game resources to find solutions to in-game problems. The good news is that there are great PVE-oriented private groups that welcome players looking for that experience, and I'm glad they exist. I don't personally take any joy from "griefing" people; I am seeking to create challenging gameplay experiences for myself and others, and in the instances where I can help share what little knowledge I have gained, I try to offer it, in good faith. As was done for me.
I personally was attracted to Elite for the PVP elements, and honestly, am shocked and more than a little aggravated that 350hrs+ into the game, I'm only just now beginning to have a ship that's engineered enough to even get to play. That's a hell of a long apprenticeship for any video game. I'd much prefer that PVP content be available from the very beginning of the game, and not only of the "seal clubbing" variety. Alas, I've joined Elite in 2020, which means the engineer grind is a prerequisite.
I've been here, off and on, since the beta and I gotta tell you I have never found anyone capable of giving a satisfactory answer to your question.
I've been in Hotel California so many times asking what people expected when they chose open (as you did in ancient times) and were subjected to asymmetric combat.
For a time period, I contributed to every "wah wah I have been ganked" thread in DD with advice on how it really isn't that hard to avoid, even (or especially) in un-engineered ships through using tools everyone has at their disposal, mainly your scanner and your eyes.
I don't think there is a reasonable answer or discussion to be had that doesn't end with the complainer choosing a different mode.
Open has the possibility of every cmdr encountered attacking you. Therefore you fly accordingly or risk destruction.
For me, excitement, for others a chore. All valid, hence mode choice I fully support.
But to think open is not fundamentally risky is insane.
Facing rebuy in open is YOUR OWN fault and responsibility due to assumption #1 on page #1, written in big letters underlined twice:-
Open has the possibility of every cmdr encountered attacking you.
I've been in Hotel California so many times asking what people expected when they chose open (as you did in ancient times) and were subjected to asymmetric combat.
For a time period, I contributed to every "wah wah I have been ganked" thread in DD with advice on how it really isn't that hard to avoid, even (or especially) in un-engineered ships through using tools everyone has at their disposal, mainly your scanner and your eyes.
I don't think there is a reasonable answer or discussion to be had that doesn't end with the complainer choosing a different mode.
Open has the possibility of every cmdr encountered attacking you. Therefore you fly accordingly or risk destruction.
For me, excitement, for others a chore. All valid, hence mode choice I fully support.
But to think open is not fundamentally risky is insane.
Facing rebuy in open is YOUR OWN fault and responsibility due to assumption #1 on page #1, written in big letters underlined twice:-
Open has the possibility of every cmdr encountered attacking you.
I'm not familiar enough with EVE to make a comparison between the games, but Elite: Dangerous has only the flimsiest excuse for a pseudoecononmy. There is no demographic and marginal supply chain simulation, prices of most goods are fixed, and credit supply is infinite. Neither token supply and demand for 'commodities', nor use of points/scorekeeping for behavior incentives, constitutes an economy. You ride one of the largely contextless gameplay loops for a little while and you quickly max out the utility and agency of credits.
Also, seal clubbing has a non-negligible effect on the BGS, mostly through the paper tiger of the presumed threat it presents influencing the behavior of other players.
Anyway, I acknowledge that the game attempts to incentivise certain behaviors, but it ultimately lacks the fundamental framework required to give most of these behaviors meaningful context.
Man... I wish you were on PC. Exactly what my plan is but maybe some slightly more advanced goids. We could be flying together if you weren't a console pleb
I'm only quoting your conclusion, but I felt your post was spot-on.
In the naval MMO I played, I once interdicted a trade ship full of components intended to be used in the completion of a large capital ship. I succeeded in capturing the ship and its cargo (in that game, you could actually capture other ships as your "prize", and they became your property, to do with as you chose), and in so doing, prevent the other captain from being able to finish his large warship. I was able to turn around and sell off that trade ship and its cargo at a nearby "free port", thereby enriching myself for the very real risk I'd run to my own ship in traveling into enemy waters to hunt.
And this incident had the indirect effect of weakening, however slightly, his faction's war effort - as the warship he was trying to complete would have been used in the service of capturing ports to buttress his faction's territory and access to resources. I have no illusions that I did anything but delay the completion of this ship, but it was an impact nonetheless. And, arguably, I "griefed" this player, because they'd spent gameplay time gathering the materials, crafting them into the components, and then sailing them to their destination port, and I literally robbed him of that investment, for my own gain.
But there was an entirely plausible in-game explanation for doing this, one that had meaningful impact on the game, however slight and small in the larger scheme of things.
In Elite, this kind of interaction is entirely absent, The ships you destroy can be restored for 5% of their cost, and they're as good as new, and you get literally nothing from their destruction (except possibly a bounty and some combat XP). And even post LTD nerf and "Eggsploit" fix, credits themselves are extremely easy to come by for those who care about such things. So, absent some gameplay time (if, for example, a mining ship is destroyed with a full hold of cargo), loss is effectively meaningless for all parties in Elite. It barely affects progression, certainly far less than in the naval MMO I described above.
The whole point of OPEN is to PVP. Don't like it? Play in Solo and stop complaining.
First, I have never attacked anyone for no reason other than defense, and I dont gank other players. Having said that, I play OPEN...why ?
- the added realism of having other live players
- the added danger that only other IRL players provide
- it adds life to the game, more ships, not just A.I.
- I play plenty of single player games, I dont play MMOs to play solo
- Im not scared of dying in a video game...at all.