Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[thistle]

Meaning, just go for it, mix it up, and have fun, we've tried to make losing as absolutely as painless as possible while still having it mean something, but, you know, it's not a big deal. That message came through as clearly to me as a 50 foot neon sign.

No, that's just how you play. You might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?

Although ganking is absolutely a hostile action, it's done in the same way that invading your friend's territory in Risk is a hostile action, or laughing as they have to pay some exorbitant fee for landing on the wrong square in Monopoly.

No, that's just how you play. You might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?

When gankers say "it's just a game!", that is truly the perspective they're coming from. It's an effort to try to remind us all that we are engaging in a leisure activity that is supposed to be fun. One where we spend countless hours doing trivial stuff so we can finally get out there and cut loose.

No, that's just how you play. You might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?

We are trying to say, "Jump in the water's fine!" And many of us genuinely want to help other players take that leap. We understand it's not for everyone, and that's OK. But everyone is welcome, if they're willing to take that first step.

Everyone is welcome to play your game? Even though you might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?

It seems your game is more important than theirs.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

No, that's just how you play. You might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?


No, that's just how you play. You might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?


No, that's just how you play. You might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?


Everyone is welcome to play your game? Even though you might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?

It seems your game is more important than theirs.

We're all playing the same game. Just some of us have read the rules more carefully than others.

 

[Riverside]

We're all playing the same game. Just some of us have read the rules more carefully than others.

Some just lack the same consideration for consequences. The talk on this topic is mostly edge-case stuff, a few systems, and a relatively small number of players. The overwhelming majority of interactions, even with those who may 'attack for no reason' are only too happy to help another pilot rather than make an enemy.

If someone only wants to fight there are places where that can be done without disrupting others - San Tu is a good example.

But there's no salt in that, and it's that desire for salt that creates the friction. I think some just try to pretend that's not what they are looking for & that's kinda weak imo. There are times when I derive satisfaction from the misfortune of others. I don't talk about it much but I don't pretend it doesn't feel good

 

[Danquememe]

You've got me really riled up now with your post here. Although I have no interest in griefing or hooking up with other griefers to gank people, I will fight the griefers and I'm probably going to lose a lot, and lose a lot of credits. But the only way to get PvP experience and get better at it is to do it. With billions in the bank and a steady stream of cash from my mining activities there is now no excuse to stay away from open.

You don't need any excuse other than "I don't care for this experience" to not play in Open. I promise that there's no award given, nor special recognition of courage, honor, or otherwise for playing in Open. It's an experience that is unique within Elite - and that's it. That's why you play in Open, because you want the experience it provides. It's neither better, worse or otherwise than the other modes. Just different.

But I tell you one thing. If I really have to get freindly with that pervert who likes to do robot prostitutes to get to those G5 Frags, if that is really all PvP is about then I'm turning right back to solo/group. Please tell me it's not just double shot frags as the only META? Because that was my last PvP experience, guy just had a Clipper tank with gimbled frags and the battle only lasted 3 minutes against my Chieftain.

Please say that open PvPers use a more varied range of weapons? That combat is more freeform?

Well, good news and bad news.

Frag cannons are great for ganking but are not really considered "meta" for actual PVP (like 1v1s and wingfights), at least in most cases (there are always exceptions). Frag cannons are used in ganking because they have extremely high alpha strike capability, and many players, for whatever reason, do not have great shields (or any shields, which is absolutely crazy in most cases). However, if you face off with your, say, frag Krait against a dedicated PVPer in a meta FDL? You're probably going to have a hard time. You might run out of ammo before you're able to knock down their shields, or find that they're able to orbit you and you're not able to really do much about it (since the Krait is pretty easily outmaneuvered by a well-flown engineered FDL).

So you probably don't need to worry about Nemo. Technically they aren't robot sex toys, though - they are like virtual pets or something. I don't know. It didn't matter that much to me, I just wanted the frags.

Bad news is that the meta for dedicated "sweatlord" competitive PVP is pretty much centered on the FDL above all else. It's simply better than every other option, in terms of its manueverability, weapons loadout, etc. Which is not to say it's an "I Win" button, because it isn't. You have to develop the skill to use it effectively, and it has the highest skill ceiling of any craft in the game. Meaning there's a lot of difference in outcomes between a beginner like me and an expert.

I'd really recommend checking out the Galactic Combat Initiative Discord if you're interested in learning more about PVP. It's full of some of the very best PVPers in the game, and they freely share their knowledge on a daily basis. https://discord.gg/2khfM24

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Well, good news and bad news.

Frag cannons are great for ganking but are not really considered "meta" for actual PVP (like 1v1s and wingfights), at least in most cases (there are always exceptions). Frag cannons are used in ganking because they have extremely high alpha strike capability, and many players, for whatever reason, do not have great shields (or any shields, which is absolutely crazy in most cases). However, if you face off with your, say, frag Krait against a dedicated PVPer in a meta FDL? You're probably going to have a hard time. You might run out of ammo before you're able to knock down their shields, or find that they're able to orbit you and you're not able to really do much about it (since the Krait is pretty easily outmaneuvered by a well-flown engineered FDL).

What about Frag-De-Lance? Meaning I have one for the possibility of messing with PVP....

 

[Danquememe]

Everyone is welcome to play your game? Even though you might be playing a different game than the one being played by those you gank?

Everyone is welcome to play this guy's game:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_3opaV-cOE


I didn't code Elite. I didn't write the rules. I just play the game as delivered.

Open is rough and tumble - by design, apparently. That's not for everyone, and that's OK.

I've said multiple times in this thread that game's design fails all three of the main player groups - solo players, PVE co-opers, and PVPers - in various ways. It's not perfect.

It's also not my fault. I am, in fact, playing the game the way it was made to be played.

If that upsets you, that is in fact your choice. I understand why you might get upset, but it's still a choice that you're making, based on your failure to accept the game as it has been designed and delivered.

 

[Danquememe]

What about Frag-De-Lance? Meaning I have one for the possibility of messing with PVP....

I've not tried it, but I've been warned off. It's apparently an idea that everyone has at some point, and it leads to tears every time.

But don't take my word for it! LOL

 

[Ian Skippy]

I've not tried it, but I've been warned off. It's apparently an idea that everyone has at some point, and it leads to tears every time.

But don't take my word for it! LOL

A frag-de-lance is not that great in competitive PvP, but it does massive DPS against slow lumbering targets you can just park into. Like trade condas and t9s.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

A frag-de-lance is not that great in competitive PvP, but it does massive DPS against slow lumbering targets you can just park into. Like trade condas and t9s.

So more about ganking ship than combat ship against people who can shoot back. OK need to think other kind of stuff for that...

 

[Danquememe]

If someone only wants to fight there are places where that can be done without disrupting others - San Tu is a good example.

But there's no salt in that, and it's that desire for salt that creates the friction. I think some just try to pretend that's not what they are looking for & that's kinda weak imo. There are times when I derive satisfaction from the misfortune of others. I don't talk about it much but I don't pretend it doesn't feel good

For me, the salt thing doesn't hold any appeal. I don't deny that it is an appeal for others - some refer to it as the "currency" among gankers - but it's not a motivator for me. You're welcome to doubt that, but it's the honest truth and, as a self-professed ganker, I'd think it would almost be an easier answer to lie and say I did care about it rather than telling the truth, which is that I don't.

The thing is, engaging random players in Open is all about - for me, and only me - the uncertainty of the whole business. Getting challenged by respondents in this thread to engage in more roleplay aspects - who told me that at least saying something would be better than being a "silent killer" - has only increased that, because it increases the interaction.

I've had random players in chat laugh at my silly roleplay about being a gank evasion tester tasked with ensuring pilots in the system have the vital skills necessary to survive and see their cargoes delivered. I've let obviously new-ish players - even if they're flying an Anaconda, explicitly an endgame ship, in terms of cost - get away with some damage to their hull and some tips on how to evade a gank. I've had daily chats via DM with people to whom I've sent a friend request and then, in fact, been friendly with. And I've had the same done for me - often, after engaging in a 1v1 at Shin or whatever with a fellow PVPer, I'll get tips and advice on what I could have done better.

The point I'm trying to make here is that there's a whole other layer of the game available to people once they stop taking their spaceship pixels so damned seriously. There's a level of engagement and camaraderie and "see you next time" that is genuinely really fun. Dare I say, even as a ganker I'm literally having the kinds of interactions the PVE co-op seeking folks say they hope to find in Open. It's just that there are spaceships blown up in the process. Is that really the end of the world, in a game like this? Where loss is so meaningless?

I fully own that the above is my particular adaptation to the game rules and experience and if nothing else, this thread has taught me not to be so naive as to think anyone else "gets it" in this way. But it exists. This "next level" of playing the game, where you're no longer freaking out about trivial, tedious things and getting into the spirit and the excitement of playing a game with other thinking individuals who are trying to outwit you just as fast as you're trying to outwit them. But not for some payoff of emotionally charged salt. No, not at all. Because it's all in good fun, and it's a game. Just like playing Monopoly or Risk or even Uno (which I'll have you know extracts more salt from gankers than anything I've seen happen in Elite).

Anyways, take the above as you will, but it's my truth, and I share it with those who of you who have avoided Open and/or hated gankers, as food for thought. I know I won't change your mind and I'm not trying to, but I am offering you a window into the inner world of someone who plays on the outlaw side of the equation in this game. For what it's worth.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Danquememe, well I think sending friend request to you was not a mistake.

 

[Danquememe]

So more about ganking ship than combat ship against people who can shoot back. OK need to think other kind of stuff for that...

Well, people do shoot back when you try to gank them. Some start shooting immediately. You need to be prepared to deal with that, if you're ganking. It's part of the fun - in fact, it's what many of us are hoping for, "organic PVP."

But it's a totally different situation when you're doing a "1v1mebro" with someone at Shin or San Tu or whatever. Or headed off with your wing to meet another wing in some rocks to do a wingfight. In those cases, you're not worried about things like how many LY your ship can jump, or can I get enough damage in to kill this target before it combat logs. In an arranged, competitive PVP scenario, you've got a whole other set of requirements, and the meta FDL builds are meant for that.

A meta FDL absolutely can be used as a gank ship, though they're so short legged it can be painful in its own right unless you just park it at Deciat or wherever and then have it delivered. Plenty of people do it. But within ganking itself, there's a much wider array of viable builds. I was beaten up pretty badly by an Asp Explorer using seeker missiles! That player was sort of flying around Shin "asking" to be interdicted, and then giving players a rude awakening when they (like me) had no idea how to counter missiles.

So there is scope for a lot of creativity in organic and gank -oriented PVP builds, maybe more than in the ruthlessly optimized pure competitive PVP scene.

For me, I enjoy engaging in both, but for different reasons.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

It's a funny thing that, the salt issue. It feels like a natural reaction to despise it. Purposely blowing someone's ship up, so they get angry and you can laugh at their messages. Thing is though, this BGS stuff, with which I'm most unfamiliar, strikes me as nothing more than taking delight in undoing other people's work. You know, factions go to war, don't they? Try to invade other people's systems? You may not (or you may for all I know) send each other messages bragging about how you robbed them, but the delight must still be there and that very part, working as a team to undo another teams work IS built into the game, it's not a sort of 'possible' thing, it's a mechanism specifically designed to pit players against each other.

Maybe I have this all wrong, like I say, I don't know much about it. If it is true though, then laughing at a blown up ship is laughing at someone else's misery, as is successfully overrunning someone else's system.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Well, people do shoot back when you try to gank them. Some start shooting immediately. You need to be prepared to deal with that, if you're ganking. It's part of the fun - in fact, it's what many of us are hoping for, "organic PVP."

But it's a totally different situation when you're doing a "1v1mebro" with someone at Shin or San Tu or whatever. Or headed off with your wing to meet another wing in some rocks to do a wingfight. In those cases, you're not worried about things like how many LY your ship can jump, or can I get enough damage in to kill this target before it combat logs. In an arranged, competitive PVP scenario, you've got a whole other set of requirements, and the meta FDL builds are meant for that.

A meta FDL absolutely can be used as a gank ship, though they're so short legged it can be painful in its own right unless you just park it at Deciat or wherever and then have it delivered. Plenty of people do it. But within ganking itself, there's a much wider array of viable builds. I was beaten up pretty badly by an Asp Explorer using seeker missiles! That player was sort of flying around Shin "asking" to be interdicted, and then giving players a rude awakening when they (like me) had no idea how to counter missiles.

So there is scope for a lot of creativity in organic and gank -oriented PVP builds, maybe more than in the ruthlessly optimized pure competitive PVP scene.

For me, I enjoy engaging in both, but for different reasons.

You can get a meta FDL to 20LY without you losing Godlike status to non-pvp ships.

Run the numbers of a T9 versus a max shield FDL, but with increased range FSD and an FSD booster with no added bulkheads. Note how long the T9 needs to shoot you point blank before you die.

You can pretty much pop out to the store, buy a pizza, heat it, eat it, wash it down with a beer or two and then obliterate the T9 in 20s.

 

[Danquememe]

You can get a meta FDL to 20LY without you losing Godlike status to non-pvp ships.

Run the numbers of a T9 versus a max shield FDL, but with increased range FSD and an FSD booster with no added bulkheads. Note how long the T9 needs to shoot you point blank before you die.

You can pretty much pop out to the store, buy a pizza, heat it, eat it, wash it down with a beer or two and then obliterate the T9 in 20s.

I mean, the T-9 would have definitely jumped away by then, but sure

And in a world where fleet carriers exist, the ultimate min-maxers are literally putting tiny fuel tanks in their FDLs - and making it to where they jump only 4-6 LY or thereabouts - because jumping between systems simply isn't a necessary requirement anymore. There are truly carrier-based FDLs. Get sent to detention? Whistle up the fleet carrier and then yell at the jerk who had crimes turned on before your fight.

 

[Riverside]

It's a funny thing that, the salt issue. It feels like a natural reaction to despise it. Purposely blowing someone's ship up, so they get angry and you can laugh at their messages. Thing is though, this BGS stuff, with which I'm most unfamiliar, strikes me as nothing more than taking delight in undoing other people's work. You know, factions go to war, don't they? Try to invade other people's systems? You may not (or you may for all I know) send each other messages bragging about how you robbed them, but the delight must still be there and that very part, working as a team to undo another teams work IS built into the game, it's not a sort of 'possible' thing, it's a mechanism specifically designed to pit players against each other.

Maybe I have this all wrong, like I say, I don't know much about it. If it is true though, then laughing at a blown up ship is laughing at someone else's misery, as is successfully overrunning someone else's system.

Yes faction manipulation (BGS stuff) is what I do, it's slower paced than direct PvP but both combined is the game at it's best imo.

There are players only interested in direct combat with other players, and that is something I can appreciate but I find it a bit boring on it's own. Short term fun, but not really for me.

There are players (lots & lots of them) that are only interested in indirect conflict via the BGS. That's much closer to what I do & enjoy, but again doing it in Group is a bit boring & well, easy. So generally I do it in Open, and sometimes I meet my opposition . That's the rare & meaningful interaction David Braben talked about way back during kickstarter. My slant on that is that I prefer to negotiate treaties and alliances than just fight, but either way it can be a thrill to utterly crush the spirit of some big arrogant player group without ever even instancing with them

So to me instancing, modes, platforms don't matter. It'd be nice to meet them & chat, but even with submarine warfare you can usually send & receive 'messages' through action & inaction. A relatively small group of players is present in one of 'my' systems, they kept trying to gain ground. I pushed one of my factions up to almost start a war in a system they controlled, held the gap for about a week, then let my faction fall back again. They backed off in my system. Never met 'em, no idea who any of them are.

 

[Danquememe]

There are players (lots & lots of them) that are only interested in indirect conflict via the BGS. That's much closer to what I do & enjoy, but again doing it in Group is a bit boring & well, easy. So generally I do it in Open, and sometimes I meet my opposition .

I, for one, would be more than happy to be engaged as a "freelancer" to help with such efforts.

I suspect many do their BGS stuff in PG and Solo and I'm sure they'd be even more inclined to do so if there was some extra "attention" being paid.

But massacre missions are massacre missions and they put money in the bank and materials in the...wherever materials are held. Getting some spontaneous gonks in would just be icing on the cake.

How would I find a group like this to "work" with?

 

[Riverside]

I, for one, would be more than happy to be engaged as a "freelancer" to help with such efforts.

I suspect many do their BGS stuff in PG and Solo and I'm sure they'd be even more inclined to do so if there was some extra "attention" being paid.

But massacre missions are massacre missions and they put money in the bank and materials in the...wherever materials are held. Getting some spontaneous gonks in would just be icing on the cake.

How would I find a group like this to "work" with?

I employ mercinaries (in the bubble), but not on anything like the scale of others. PM me here if you're interested & want to discuss it more.

 

[Danquememe]

OK folks, maybe there is something to this "Wholesome Ganking" thing after all.

For review, thanks to this thread, I've begun doing very light roleplay when interdicting players. My go-to is "You have been randomly selected for a Gank Evasion Test. High wake or die, CMDR!" Afterwards, regardless of outcome, I send a friend request. If it is accepted, I share feedback on the outcome of their test - and yes, it truly is a test, if you think about it - and if they have any questions about how to evade ganks, I give them the full run-down.

I'm pleased to report that tonight, I had a 2/3 success rate in getting the friend request accepted. The funniest reply was "Hell of a way to make friends!", which made me laugh out loud (CMDR wasn't wrong). In each of those cases, however, I spent a good bit of time - probably 5 or maybe 10 minutes? - chatting with the player, sharing tips, telling them what they did right and what they could have done better. In each case, the interaction went from guarded - quite reasonably so - to genuinely pretty friendly by the end. I emphasized that I would be happy to be a resource for them if they had any questions. One of them even said something to the effect of, "well, you're definitely not a griefer," and I took that as a compliment.

Anyways, it won't always go like it did tonight, but I do feel like this has shown me a path towards a play style that suits me quite well. It still sort of shocks me how positive the response has been, though. It's almost like everyone in this thread was on to something! I am grateful for the feedback and am trying to find a way to play as an outlaw without it being a completely one-sided affair. I have no illusions that every player will see it that way, but I'm hopeful that the percentages have at least improved a bit.

This thread has had real food for thought, indeed.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Which means it benefits both ganker and gankee: Rebuys ain't hard to overcome, and having a bounty on you doesn't really do much. NPCs are a push over if you're in a dedicated combat ship, but signifigantly less so if and when you're truckin' or minin'.

I'd love to play in open, but I cannot do PVP at all. Literally, health problems prevent it; high blood pressure and adrenaline don't mix. I get interdicted by a player, I have no choice but to either do my best to escape or (more likely) eat the rebuy. Galaxy's kinda lonely in Private Groups, and even then Law breakers barely get any punishment in this game, PVP or not.

I had to work pretty hard at the combat side of it, and I am still working on trying to stay cool calm and collected while in a critical situation. I believe it’s a useful skill in life, but back to elite: playing in open (or at least mostly in open) doesn’t equate to doing lots of pvp, that’s up to you, as once you learn the basics of evasion (contact SirGanksalot who will even teach you how), you can engage in pvp when you decide to.