ruling about relative mouse is out

[WR3ND]

I'm sorry, but I've never used a flight stick setup, so I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you explain what you just said in layman's terms? :S

Sure. Say you have pitch and roll on the right analog stick. With the contemporary analog sticks with round holes that are on game controllers these days (this hasn't always been the case with analog sticks on controllers in the past that had square holes), if you're pitching and rolling at the same time, i.e., moving the stick into the "corner," you will only roll at 81% and pitch at 81%, as per my test results at least. I used throttle to do the testing as it is more easily accurately measured.

 

[Drelthar]

I'm sorry, but I've never used a flight stick setup, so I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you explain what you just said in layman's terms? :S

He means controllers/sticks are less accurate than a mouse.

 

[WR3ND]

He means controllers/sticks are less accurate than a mouse.

They may also be less accurate, but no, I mean they don't have full throws (can not turn as fast and/or go as fast) when using multi-axis input on the analog sticks for flight and throttle control.

 

[xzanfr]

I play keyboard only using the original elite controls of s,x,<,> etc.
This is the only pure way to play so all other pretenders need to be removed. Burn your joysticks and trap your mice, keyboard is the only true gaming input.

 

[Maolagin]

Sure. Say you have pitch and roll on the right analog stick. With the contemporary analog sticks with round holes that are on game controllers these days (this hasn't always been the case with analog sticks on controllers in the past that had square holes), if you're pitching and rolling at the same time, i.e., moving the stick into the "corner," you will only roll at 81% and pitch at 81%, as per my test results at least. I used throttle to do the testing as it is more easily accurately measured.

Wait, really? The last stick I owned was quite a while ago. Is it seriously the case that on current sticks you physically cannot saturate both axes simultaneously? Who asked for that?!

 

[777Driver]

When you release the stick, does it return to the centre, or stay where you left it?
Do you have to manually stabilise the ship by returning the stick to the centre? Or do you have to move it past the centre to precisely the opposite direction and location to counteract your current thrust?



The main difference is that by always returning the stick to the centre, you always have a fixed point of reference from which all relative controls are based off. That fixed point of reference does not exist for a mouse, and it is virtually impossible to manually return it to the exact point of origin. So you always have to compensate your mouse control based on it's new point of reference, which is virtually impossible, and you end up over-compensating every movement resulting in a total loss of control.

The 'Relative mouse movement' option simulates the auto-centre mechanism of a flight stick by assuming the last resting place of the mouse is the new centre, and basing all new movements from there.

Think of it this way - imagine you had a very sensitive flight stick that *didn't* return to the exact centre. How would you manage flight then? Every tiny flight stick movement would generate thrust in the direction you specified, and you would never know exactly how much counter-thrust to apply to stabilise your ship.


Do you play on PC or X-Box? If you play on a PC, it would be very easy to check and see firsthand what I'm referring to. I only have a PC with keyboard and mouse, so cannot test the flight stick setup without spending a decent amount of money first.

Thanks Dude, I play on PC with HOTAS Pedals, it is a complex setup, never tried switching to mouse control in case it messes with my controls or bindings/null zones etc.

What you describe makes complete sense.

Nice one mate.

Wait, really? The last stick I owned was quite a while ago. Is it seriously the case that on current sticks you physically cannot saturate both axes simultaneously? Who asked for that?!

Have never seen what WR3ND describes, although I have some pretty expensive kit calibrated and running through Joystick curves.

 

[WR3ND]

Wait, really? The last stick I owned was quite a while ago. Is it seriously the case that on current sticks you physically cannot saturate both axes simultaneously? Who asked for that?!

Gamers who don't understand square holes when they're rotating their sticks around, apparently. This wasn't the case with older controllers.

The issue is that the pots can get full throws in the middle along the axis, up and down, or left and right, but these throws are rounded off in the corners, because, there aren't physically corners. Yes, it's rather absurd that this is a thing, but it is.

 

[777Driver]

Gamers who don't understand square holes when they're rotating their sticks around, apparently. This wasn't the case with older controllers.

The issue is that the pots can get full throws in the middle along the axis, up and down, or left and right, but these throws are rounded off in the corners, because, there aren't physically corners. Yes, it's rather absurd that this is a thing, but it is.

Take something like the Thruster T-1600M, Attack 3 and many other sticks, what is the issue with having a square hole? Am trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks

 

[Maolagin]

Can someone explain this relative mouse thing? Never used the mouse to fly. So when I fly FA-OFF with my HOTAS, I put a roll command in, release the stick, as expected the ship will keep rolling at the rate I commanded (until I manually stabilise the ship)

How does it work with the mouse? Also trying to understand what nanite2000 is on about, yes the stick returns to centre in pitch and roll, also my pedals return to centre when released, however none of the axis provide automatic stabilisation. what are the similarities that he is describing between relative mouse and using a HOTAS?

Cheers

So here's my take as a KB+M pilot. The game treats your mouse essentially like a joystick, so distance from center in the X or Y axis translates to a proportional control input. So far so good. You set up your axes for pitch/roll or pitch/yaw as your preference dictates, you fly your ship.

Now as several folks have mentioned, sticks automatically return to center, so if you take your hand off the stick, you expect to be applying zero control to your axes. A mouse doesn't have a mechanical center though, so it's very difficult to manually return a mouse to the exact spot it considers to be coordinate 0,0. Thus in general if you take your hand off the mouse you will still be applying a small control input. In FA-On it doesn't matter much because the thing being controlled is turn rate, which is easy to periodically correct. But in FA-Off the thing being controlled is thrust, and even a small nonzero input rapidly accumulates over time to produce large unintended turning rates.

The solution being discussed is the "relative mouse" mode. The way it's implemented is that the mouse axis inputs decay to zero, so if you take your hand off the mouse, it "centers" itself and no longer produces unintended input. Exactly what you want when flying FA-Off. However, in my opinion, it makes FA-On flying almost unusable, because it's impossible to apply a constant input (the mouse drifts to center whether you want it to or not), and thus very hard to e.g. turn at a constant rate. Personally my preferred solution is to bind a control to recenter the mouse (I use the middle mouse button), which I think gives the best of both worlds.

However, that isn't the OP's objection to "relative mouse" -- rather, the complaint is that mouse input is too good (because mice are high DPI, and also you don't have to move your whole arm to get to full throw). OP believes that removing the relative mode will nerf mouse input. Since recenter-via-button is also available and IMO better, I think OP is wrong to think this would make any difference though.

 

[WR3ND]

Take something like the Thruster T-1600M, Attack 3 and many other sticks, what is the issue with having a square hole? Am trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks

I'm talking primarily about handheld game controllers with analog thumb sticks, but joysticks in principle might well work the same way.

I can only presume that the issue was that console gamers didn't like having to rotate their sticks around and have them get stuck in the corners of the square holes instead of just rotating around smoothly.

For full control inputs for flight sims and the like, square holes are obviously more ideal, because then, for example, you can get full pitch and roll rates at the same time.

 

[777Driver]

I'm talking primarily about handheld game controllers with analog thumb sticks, but joysticks in principle might well work the same way.

.

Ah ok, sorry thought you meant joysticks. All my sticks have square holes, I see full range when calibrating though jscurves.

 

[Winter Jasra]

You can connect a X-Box controller to a PC (should have mentioned what I'm playing on). I can see how this could be a software setting for joysticks, but it works for mice too. I assume Elite does this through software then? If so, I see no reason they couldn't have done that for controllers as well.

Reason why I don't use keyboard + mouse personally:

a) It feels awkward
b) Controllers are more comfortable in VR

Do you always expect things to come to you, instead of going and looking for them?

https://www.rewasd.com/

 

[Shwinky]

on further reflection, though, 'relative mouse' also negates the need of compensating input which is one of the fundamental characteristics of fa-off in the first place. this makes no sense.

You've never flown with relative mouse before, have you? You seem to be completely misunderstanding what relative mouse does. You absolutely do have to provide counter-inputs to keep your ship under control. The ship doesn't automatically level itself out after you release the mouse. It operates exactly the same as a stick. You release the mouse/stick, it returns to neutral position and your ship will continue rolling/pitching/yawing until you provide the appropriate amount of counter-input to cancel it.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

If you drop soap on the floor, is the soap dirty or is the floor clean?

Yes

 

[the100thmonkey]

You've never flown with relative mouse before, have you? You seem to be completely misunderstanding what relative mouse does. You absolutely do have to provide counter-inputs to keep your ship under control. The ship doesn't automatically level itself out after you release the mouse. It operates exactly the same as a stick. You release the mouse/stick, it returns to neutral position and your ship will continue rolling/pitching/yawing until you provide the appropriate amount of counter-input to cancel it.

You neglect to metion how much more control one gets from using the mouse, especially a mouse with a very high DPI.

Just remove mouse control and everything is fine. Don't have a joystick? Keyboard control is available.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

until now i've been against nerfing 'relative mode' on the grounds that its alleged 'opness' is likely more touted than real, much depending on a specific flight style which any opponent has the option to (try to) negate, and that flexibility and choice in control methods is a good thing.

on further reflection, though, 'relative mouse' also negates the need of compensating input which is one of the fundamental characteristics of fa-off in the first place. this makes no sense.

so 'relative mouse' has to go. frontier please fix.

I would recommend actually enabling relative mouse mode and trying it out for a few seconds before writing up poorly researched whine posts on the forums. It does nothing to change the actual mechanics of FA-off, and only serves the purpose of auto-centering the mouse after making movement changes (exactly like a HOTAS).

If you still legitimately think it's easy mode, add me in game and let's have a duel in stock dropships with fixed multicannons. Show everyone how easy it is to aim and fly with relative mouse.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

You neglect to metion how much more control one gets from using the mouse, especially a mouse with a very high DPI.

Just remove mouse control and everything is fine. Don't have a joystick? Keyboard control is available.

Solo and Private Groups give an immensely more game-breaking advantage than a simple mouse.

Remove those first if you're somehow suddenly so concerned about PvP balance across the whole game.

 

[AutoMechanical]

Lets go further remove all inputs from the game.

 

[askavir]

You neglect to metion how much more control one gets from using the mouse, especially a mouse with a very high DPI.

Just remove mouse control and everything is fine. Don't have a joystick? Keyboard control is available.

But then joystick would have advantage over the keyboard, so we have to remove joysticks too. Keyboard only for everyone!

But then, good keyboards would have an advantage over 10 buck keyboards, so let's establish a standard keyboard and let the game be playable only with that exact model.

But wait, larger screens, multiple screens and VR have advantage over small screens, so lets remove big screens and VR, as well as track IR and voice attack and other enhancement peripherals, and support 19 inch single monitors only, locked to a fixed resolution, to avoid bigger resolutions giving an advantage on targetting!

See how this is ridiculous? Just like removing mouse, the most common, widely accessible device in the world of computing. Feel like mouse gives others an advantage? Use a mouse yourself.

 

[Redomus]

Or just force mouse players to centre themselves. This is mechanical on a HOTAS. Why should it not be so if playing with a mouse? Oh, that's right - it's convenient. Moreover, the auto-centre with a high-dpi sensor controlled by the fingers rather than the wrist and arm is a further advantage.

It is broken, and the solution is disabling relative mouse. Actually, mouse input should be removed entirely.

Wonderful, opinions like this and pushing for angendas like this and the OP only serves to further drive players from the game. The sad part is FDEV will probably listen and act on this bad advice from the track record so far.

Also try using relative mouse in supercruise - its hideous. So much so that I want a relative mouse toggle.