Only people who can't cook, since their DLC are RAW !
Say goodbye to Anarchies
- Thread starter Obi Wan Naboo
- Start date
I've never seen a bounty payable by an anarchy faction in all my time playing Elite.
As someone else said currently the BGS generates massacre pirate missions targetting the nearest anarchy faction, so your one anarchy faction is getting rained down on by dozens of other factions issuing massacre the anarchist missions. And because the anarchist ships are 99% wanted, there is no criminality / notoriety for their ships getting mowed down as if by a combine harvester, often in their home system, meaning their influence gets tanked organically.
Doesn't matter if it's traceable or not, the idea is to have a double edged sword of a commodity that sales of it from the anarchists market creates a positive inluence shift for them and sales of it to a non anarchist market creates a negative influence shift. Ergo, exporting this special commodity would simultaneously bolster the anarchists and undermine the surrounding factions.
I've used BM to poison factions before, but strangely not tried to use it to prop up an anarchy before. I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I reckon that if it works the same for anarchies as it does for normal factions, that needs redressing as per my list of suggestions, if however it already props up the anarchists, brilliant, one less thing to do to make anarchy more sustainable.
Like I said, never used BM against anarchy so can't comment.
Most of the missions I ran for the dragons of San Tu were passenger or assassination or ground assault missions, it's been an eternity seen I seen actual smuggling missions.
I'd like to see that chart if you'd be so kind as to post it?
BTW - I'm not bickering with you, but I have been engaging in discourse with you by answering in line where I either agree/disagree or need clarification
I might have scorched my reputation with a few factions by taking their deliveries, abandoning it, then selling the commodities to the blackmarket to double tank their influence
Link please.
I'm taking you at face value, and any time I'm asking for elaboration is to further my knowledge.
My usual BGS "carrot and stick" methods worked for propping up the influence of various anarchies I've supported over the years, so I have been able to prop up Dragons of San Tu three times, defended 69 Carinae once, helped the code take Ridquat, although on that last one I was merely involved with the CZ to take the system, the CODE had already BGS's their faction into a position from which they could take power. However, 69 Carinae and San Tu were longer campaigns where I (and others) nudged the BGS to the position to create the war for the anarchy to get the CZ for control of the system.
Since you've got your alt account now, and seem to have some interesting ideas about "the darkside" of the BGS with trading radioactives and biowaste to literally poison the stations,I wouldn't mind reading a document outlining how that works, assuming you wouldn't mind writing it?
I'm a specialist in specific bits of it - generally the ones without that much practical use. So I don't think I'm going to say anything new here.
Anarchies were already the toughest faction type to keep in charge because so many missions target them and their casual access to bounties is non-existent (even if you can get them if you try) so while passing traffic tends to help lawful system controllers secure their position (and still does), it's always been less helpful to Anarchy factions and seems to have shifted towards "actively unhelpful" now. And it's basically always been the case that an Anarchy faction can never "rise up" solely through passing traffic, so the tendency is always downwards unless actively countered. Plus the Criminal missions anarchies offer tend to be harder, slower, and worse paid than the equivalent legal missions.
Part of the problem is that the "Background" role of the BGS requires Anarchy [1] factions to exist, but doesn't actually require them to hold assets, in practice. And pretty much every standard bubble system has a native anarchy faction, so the existence can't be stopped. So there's no impetus for Frontier to actually make them balanced against the other types.
This isn't the first time this has happened - a lot of starting Anarchy factions in 1.0 were gone from system control within a few months, because even before people had figured the BGS out the natural pressure against them was too strong.
(Frontier are perfectly aware of the problem - look how Kumo Council are neither Anarchy nor Criminal despite representing the largest overtly criminal enterprise in the game - but don't seem to have any plans to do anything about it.)
[1] Well, technically Criminal, but the overlap is so strong it doesn't generally matter.
Have better idea: Use massacre pirates mission (only interdict) and delivery missions for this. We can use this massacre pirates mission together with delivery for our cause, if used properly.
Btw. I have another question: Why anarchies won't participate in Powerplays (even for Delaine) ? All governments participate in this, but anarchy not ? This problem also must be changed.
I do not agree Ruurka I agree with Q here actually. Anarchy should not be automatically criminal. I think it would be great if criminal/lawful ethos would be possible for various governments so there could be a lawful anarchists (as in does spawn lawful missions) as well as criminal cooperations and dictatorships for example. However this isn't the place to discuss this.
Anyway: Delaine is running a criminal organization that is very hierarchic and not at all anarchic.
Anyway: Delaine is running a criminal organization that is very hierarchic and not at all anarchic.
This is yet another reason why FD badly needs someone who is familiar with ED as a player onboard.
Eh, anarchy is a myth anyhow. But ya know, it's vidya.
Anyway: Delaine is running a criminal organization that is very hierarchic and not at all anarchic.
Eh, anarchy is a myth anyhow. But ya know, it's vidya.
Usually I would repeat the good old "Living rent free in your head", but I see that for some it has become an all encompassing obsession.
Now to the topic at hand... I'm not quite sure what is causing Anarchies to fall as rapidly as they are right now but it is a pretty troubling development. I've voted on the issue tracker and hopefully FDev takes notice. A silver lining could (hopefully) be that Frontier will finally be taking a look at balancing Anarchies so that supporting this unique government type isn't just choosing "ultra nightmare" in the difficulty settings. It was already pretty hard pre-odyssey but people managed through sheer determination. Now it looks like that is not enough.
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We've been testing Anarchy & non-Anarchy BMs since Dec of last year. 0 demand (not consumed or produced), 1 demand (not consumed, but produced), >1 demand (consumed) did not matter at all. It didn't matter if the cargo was illegal (non-Anarchy BM), stolen from a ship, stolen from missions, or bought from a carrier either. It didn't matter if you sold for profit or for a loss. Same as Anarchy or non-Anarchy didn't matter either, BM trade was always inf neg. We did a short retest in EDO already and it's still the same mechanics, nothing changed.
I think the majority of Anarchy supporters know the different methods to collect bounties for their faction, even the finer details like which ships to use and so on. What takes you in a HazRes 10-20min you need to spent 40min-1h (your own log even shows that) in an Anarchy system. Silver lining now is that the higher payouts and lower diminishing return make it easier to get that bucket to a good level.
Shooting criminal or lawless ships has no effect on the bgs. The targeting of the Anarchy faction by the massacre mission is what causes the pressure. There seems to be a similar or even higher pressure now from the Anarchy EDO settlements, something is broken there. Didn't test or even looked to closely yet at that, but I've seen Anarchy systems which were stable the last 4 years crumble in the matter of days. Most are close to the core of the bubble, the ones further out seem to be stable atm as I assume the horde of EDO mat collectors didn't get to them yet.
I'm not doubting that certain commodities have different bgs effects, but they seem to mainly effect the sec and econ sliders or at least that's our expierience. I'm quite interesting in the stations with BM but no market, until now I always saw that stations opened their normal market then the BM opened up. I saw an npc Anarchy with no BM once, but that changed with one of the updates too. You are right that there are no public guides on how to support Anarchy factions in Elite, but a good amount of the Anarchy groups trade knowledge and help each other if needed. Just now everybody needs help as they are all tanking.
Anyways, it's always good to hear about different experiences as it helps to look at things from a different angle.
Just for clarity re. bounties as there might have been a few misconstrued ideas earlier in the thread:
We couldn't care less about earning bounties. We care about other people not earning them in our space. That's kind of the point of being outlaws.
I don't think any of us want lawless factions to use the same tools that lawful factions do. Would we like better supported and rewarded mission types? Sure. Would we like a unique alternative method to earn INF to make up for not issuing bounties? I guess. That's kind of beside the point though, as we've been getting by without either of those things for checks notes yeah, 6 years now.
I believe the issue is that Odyssey has blown open vectors for attack against anarchies from a set of quite specific things to basically everything anyone does on foot. Including our own missions, which regularly spawn our own NPCs as 'emergent' antagonists. Tons of missions are now taking place under local settlement jurisdiction as well, totally bypassing the overall system security which was previously something of a shield for us.
I also wouldn't put it past Frontier to have weighted leg kills the same as ship kills, despite being a million times easier to get, and despite seemingly 90% of the random cannon fodder being from one unfortunate faction type. This doesn't happen in space, like megaship encounters will randomly draw an antagonist from all the local factions, while RES sites will draw pirates from the surrounding area.
If someone so much as farts in a system it now comes directly out of the local anarchy faction's INF.
EDIT:
Spot the anarchy.
We couldn't care less about earning bounties. We care about other people not earning them in our space. That's kind of the point of being outlaws.
I don't think any of us want lawless factions to use the same tools that lawful factions do. Would we like better supported and rewarded mission types? Sure. Would we like a unique alternative method to earn INF to make up for not issuing bounties? I guess. That's kind of beside the point though, as we've been getting by without either of those things for checks notes yeah, 6 years now.
I believe the issue is that Odyssey has blown open vectors for attack against anarchies from a set of quite specific things to basically everything anyone does on foot. Including our own missions, which regularly spawn our own NPCs as 'emergent' antagonists. Tons of missions are now taking place under local settlement jurisdiction as well, totally bypassing the overall system security which was previously something of a shield for us.
I also wouldn't put it past Frontier to have weighted leg kills the same as ship kills, despite being a million times easier to get, and despite seemingly 90% of the random cannon fodder being from one unfortunate faction type. This doesn't happen in space, like megaship encounters will randomly draw an antagonist from all the local factions, while RES sites will draw pirates from the surrounding area.
If someone so much as farts in a system it now comes directly out of the local anarchy faction's INF.
EDIT:
Spot the anarchy.
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I just bought 100 of them from a communist outpost.
It's not theft... it's surprise communism!
For context, we gave it a go at staving off war here by pushing a load of INF. We lost 10% and every other faction gained pretty equally. We're now fighting control wars in 8 of our systems.EDIT:
Spot the anarchy.
Don't worry about normal markets. I've see in one system that one faction owning military planet port (before anarchy gains this planet port by faction retreating) had closed commodity market. Now, while anarchy faction control this military planet port - surprise. Commodity market opened.
*edit: now it's 9. To add insult to injury the bad news just dribbles in over the course of an evening with this staggered tick.
I am not going to put into this thread more than I have at this point.
Asking for links, scroll back, this is a small thread.
I already repeat myself too often.
the chart for passengers came from these forums. Its here.
I offer information that works. For me it works.
I don't see any direct NO WAY.. from any of the other BGS players that have similar experiences.
What I am seeing is some interpreting things in ways not intended.
I provided the information as an answer that works for me, that was displayed as a question. about bounties.
I disagree in that any effort is or has ever been made to share as I have tried to do here, regarding this 1 component of anarchy support.
In sooo many discussions about BGS in here its gets off track deviated and useful info lost.
I played mostly alone for over 7 years for so many of the reasons we all know too well.
I will say that for any of the negativity this time, its on interpretation.
If anything I use does not work when you have used it. it probably means circumstances were/are different, effort was not similar , items or method was not similar.
as a small example in a 6 bil population to swing 1% inf using combined trade for focused removal of inf with directed bounty to increase 1 other.
thank recent caps for the numbers I use.
19.9mil in bounties in one shot delivered 3 times for total 60mil roughly = overkill, but if under caps, no loss noticed
that is to increase 1 faction.
then on to remove inf from 1 specific faction
I deliver 3 cutterloads of 50/50 nerve agent / thorium.
next tick = exactly what I intended...unless ofc half my enemies also rained down at the same time
If I calculated correctly, only faction goes up and only 1 faction goes down. hence focused trade+bounty attack
the cost of the thorium and nerve agent = before carriers, I always went for the most expensive found so as to increase my loss upon sale.
without carrier, this is usually -1 to -4mil per cutter.
carrier allows you to turn 1 cutter load into 10.
The math is, you lose a lot of money
as in a single attack like this that works well for me, every time I have used it, it usually cost -85mil per cutter that I deliver.
Feel free to tell my enemies that have felt this, that it doesn't work
that carriers have no effect on BGS
that selling to a market doesn't do that.
many things fdev says are very open to interpretation. they have never given total info on how something works. They hint. a lot. sometimes show images that have zero meaning till you figure it out.
And election I won a very short while back against opposition that has learned from me, cost over 2 billion to win the election
I did not have time and often don't have time to do all the things a person might want to do. so, nothing for bounties, nothing for missions or carto
nothing but 1 deliver a day of plus trade from me for me and 1 delivery a day of my worst negative toxic trade.
it has worked very many times. and if I can trade 30 minutes or rather a lack of many hours for 2 bil, I will its cheap.
As for the toxicity asked about, all the info you need is in the game, frontier did a good job on materials. You just have to read description and use some logic, or maybe research a bit to see why I use nerve agent, or thorium, or beryllium or palladium, all toxic in some way.
I will say this, for all doubt against any of the methods I use, pray you never get attacked by the enemies that were mine.
you wont be able to budge them if you don't try to learn why this stuff works.
I said it a few times. here is what I use. Time is Better used ignoring or testing yourself. and time is the enemy.
my log, as said, a small excerpt... I never saw one useful response back to me about the bounties.
So from what I can see most are not getting bounties the way I do, all fine.
And I think very many do not try to always remain allied as I do.
There is very good reason to be wanting to control factions easily with non-violent means. Even though I have a gold in combat via PP, I prefer being allied and I am good at it.
I have done this for years and not once ever met another player that could even get an anarchy bounty.
I see people asking and talking about it enough that as I am leaving the building I thought I would be nice and share.
Boast all you can about how much something was tested. If you are not getting what you need, then something isn't right, change it test it.
I hear it every day, and I go about my business ignoring. because research and testing is a skill and with a 24 hour wait and see time frame...you need a lot of testing done, that really never never stops.
Most of my enemies will tell you they did not enjoy fighting me. and when groups find out I am one person...it really makes some even madder.
I have made a lot of allies this way. By helping them afterwards.
and teaching them so they are harder to beat next time.
sometimes even during in order to put a stop to massive destruction of healthy profitable systems.
Some of these things bring on specific states, that you can then take advantage of to cause more inf loss than you think possible in a day.
people told me you cant do more than 10% per tick, bull, too easy to disprove that one. 10% per BGS tool if used effectively, +-10% per BGS tool against opposition is fascinating to watch in some systems and very boring in some.
I was told the rules for expansion - I disproved that, by getting 2 expansions from systems I did not control.
I learned how to create or remove compromised nav beacon in the first system I took over almost 8 years ago. that still works.
we were told carriers do not affect bgs(I wasn't but everyone tells me this), yet as soon as I tested mine in the beta I thanked fdev for the carrier I really needed, and a huge thank you for an incredible BGS tool. no more running around to find best or lowest or highest prices for stuff, huge time saver. HUGE!
Not only is it a BGS tool that works very well. but it can even be used as a mission influence device once you learn how.
If any of these are working NOT as intended, how would I ever know. I know what works, because as I cmdr against dozens daily for years, there is no time for failure.
so I experiment with what I read about, I experiment with crap I dream up.. My stations say it well, Never Surrender.
so many things work, far more than things that do not work. and tomorrow can change it all in an instant. Be prepared.
maybe we define things a bit diff than fdev at times...my take is, I trust no-one, I believe no-one. Proof of something is what I make of it with my tests.
A lot of beliefs rather than proof thru test seems to be a prevalent theme.
I over analyze everything. But I do it because I hate waste and repetitive actions that can/could be minimized.
There is always a better way to do something it just needs to be found. This is always at the top of all my thoughts on everything.
Asking for links, scroll back, this is a small thread.
I already repeat myself too often.
the chart for passengers came from these forums. Its here.
I offer information that works. For me it works.
I don't see any direct NO WAY.. from any of the other BGS players that have similar experiences.
What I am seeing is some interpreting things in ways not intended.
I provided the information as an answer that works for me, that was displayed as a question. about bounties.
I disagree in that any effort is or has ever been made to share as I have tried to do here, regarding this 1 component of anarchy support.
In sooo many discussions about BGS in here its gets off track deviated and useful info lost.
I played mostly alone for over 7 years for so many of the reasons we all know too well.
I will say that for any of the negativity this time, its on interpretation.
If anything I use does not work when you have used it. it probably means circumstances were/are different, effort was not similar , items or method was not similar.
as a small example in a 6 bil population to swing 1% inf using combined trade for focused removal of inf with directed bounty to increase 1 other.
thank recent caps for the numbers I use.
19.9mil in bounties in one shot delivered 3 times for total 60mil roughly = overkill, but if under caps, no loss noticed
that is to increase 1 faction.
then on to remove inf from 1 specific faction
I deliver 3 cutterloads of 50/50 nerve agent / thorium.
next tick = exactly what I intended...unless ofc half my enemies also rained down at the same time
If I calculated correctly, only faction goes up and only 1 faction goes down. hence focused trade+bounty attack
the cost of the thorium and nerve agent = before carriers, I always went for the most expensive found so as to increase my loss upon sale.
without carrier, this is usually -1 to -4mil per cutter.
carrier allows you to turn 1 cutter load into 10.
The math is, you lose a lot of money
as in a single attack like this that works well for me, every time I have used it, it usually cost -85mil per cutter that I deliver.
Feel free to tell my enemies that have felt this, that it doesn't work
that carriers have no effect on BGS
that selling to a market doesn't do that.
many things fdev says are very open to interpretation. they have never given total info on how something works. They hint. a lot. sometimes show images that have zero meaning till you figure it out.
And election I won a very short while back against opposition that has learned from me, cost over 2 billion to win the election
I did not have time and often don't have time to do all the things a person might want to do. so, nothing for bounties, nothing for missions or carto
nothing but 1 deliver a day of plus trade from me for me and 1 delivery a day of my worst negative toxic trade.
it has worked very many times. and if I can trade 30 minutes or rather a lack of many hours for 2 bil, I will its cheap.
As for the toxicity asked about, all the info you need is in the game, frontier did a good job on materials. You just have to read description and use some logic, or maybe research a bit to see why I use nerve agent, or thorium, or beryllium or palladium, all toxic in some way.
I will say this, for all doubt against any of the methods I use, pray you never get attacked by the enemies that were mine.
you wont be able to budge them if you don't try to learn why this stuff works.
I said it a few times. here is what I use. Time is Better used ignoring or testing yourself. and time is the enemy.
my log, as said, a small excerpt... I never saw one useful response back to me about the bounties.
So from what I can see most are not getting bounties the way I do, all fine.
And I think very many do not try to always remain allied as I do.
There is very good reason to be wanting to control factions easily with non-violent means. Even though I have a gold in combat via PP, I prefer being allied and I am good at it.
I have done this for years and not once ever met another player that could even get an anarchy bounty.
I see people asking and talking about it enough that as I am leaving the building I thought I would be nice and share.
Boast all you can about how much something was tested. If you are not getting what you need, then something isn't right, change it test it.
I hear it every day, and I go about my business ignoring. because research and testing is a skill and with a 24 hour wait and see time frame...you need a lot of testing done, that really never never stops.
Most of my enemies will tell you they did not enjoy fighting me. and when groups find out I am one person...it really makes some even madder.
I have made a lot of allies this way. By helping them afterwards.
and teaching them so they are harder to beat next time.
sometimes even during in order to put a stop to massive destruction of healthy profitable systems.
Some of these things bring on specific states, that you can then take advantage of to cause more inf loss than you think possible in a day.
people told me you cant do more than 10% per tick, bull, too easy to disprove that one. 10% per BGS tool if used effectively, +-10% per BGS tool against opposition is fascinating to watch in some systems and very boring in some.
I was told the rules for expansion - I disproved that, by getting 2 expansions from systems I did not control.
I learned how to create or remove compromised nav beacon in the first system I took over almost 8 years ago. that still works.
we were told carriers do not affect bgs(I wasn't but everyone tells me this), yet as soon as I tested mine in the beta I thanked fdev for the carrier I really needed, and a huge thank you for an incredible BGS tool. no more running around to find best or lowest or highest prices for stuff, huge time saver. HUGE!
Not only is it a BGS tool that works very well. but it can even be used as a mission influence device once you learn how.
If any of these are working NOT as intended, how would I ever know. I know what works, because as I cmdr against dozens daily for years, there is no time for failure.
so I experiment with what I read about, I experiment with crap I dream up.. My stations say it well, Never Surrender.
so many things work, far more than things that do not work. and tomorrow can change it all in an instant. Be prepared.
maybe we define things a bit diff than fdev at times...my take is, I trust no-one, I believe no-one. Proof of something is what I make of it with my tests.
A lot of beliefs rather than proof thru test seems to be a prevalent theme.
I over analyze everything. But I do it because I hate waste and repetitive actions that can/could be minimized.
There is always a better way to do something it just needs to be found. This is always at the top of all my thoughts on everything.
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a note about my bounty hunting
I use haz res mostly. And the reason is so I do not damage my rep with the factions I am killing, this is for my non-anarchy systems.
for the anarchist and all BH, there are good and bad days, hours, etc.
in a res, you can change that with a relog or 2 or 3...many posts on doing this and why it works..etc.
Can't really do that for the method I use for anarchy vouchers, so you get days with nothing or next to nothing
and you get days where an hour later you have to stop because you already hit he cap for that system. or a few days, where 15 minutes after popping in I get an interdiction followed by all his friends and 20 minutes later, no ammo and way over the cap. that's the way to wake up in the morning.
there are ways to cause this, I avoid that for a lot of reasons. in a haz res though, this is exactly what I want and I take gold with me to ensure it happens.
normal for me is 1 or 2 hours for each of my empire factions bounties, then anarchy. I don't mind if it takes more than 1 hour per system that needs it.
a weeks effort sees all the actions done in various ways, according to real life needs, my mood, and was anything urgent.
but its BGS, so it includes everything and for me mood dictates the order in which I do things, as well as how much time I will give. all weighed by urgency.
also, there are ways to store bounties, most of us already use them. We have no choice. specially in a case like me, 1 guy. So I always have a few days worth of bounties stored away. Learn how, use it.
I use haz res mostly. And the reason is so I do not damage my rep with the factions I am killing, this is for my non-anarchy systems.
for the anarchist and all BH, there are good and bad days, hours, etc.
in a res, you can change that with a relog or 2 or 3...many posts on doing this and why it works..etc.
Can't really do that for the method I use for anarchy vouchers, so you get days with nothing or next to nothing
and you get days where an hour later you have to stop because you already hit he cap for that system. or a few days, where 15 minutes after popping in I get an interdiction followed by all his friends and 20 minutes later, no ammo and way over the cap. that's the way to wake up in the morning.
there are ways to cause this, I avoid that for a lot of reasons. in a haz res though, this is exactly what I want and I take gold with me to ensure it happens.
normal for me is 1 or 2 hours for each of my empire factions bounties, then anarchy. I don't mind if it takes more than 1 hour per system that needs it.
a weeks effort sees all the actions done in various ways, according to real life needs, my mood, and was anything urgent.
but its BGS, so it includes everything and for me mood dictates the order in which I do things, as well as how much time I will give. all weighed by urgency.
also, there are ways to store bounties, most of us already use them. We have no choice. specially in a case like me, 1 guy. So I always have a few days worth of bounties stored away. Learn how, use it.
Could you please start your own thread where you can share your experience to your hearts content. I've asked you multiple times, but you just can't stop posting unrelated walls of text here that negatively impact the readably of this thread for everyone else.