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That's good to hear (about the Roche limit). I haven't tried to do any math on them, but some bodies just "look" like they're too close. And of course, looks can be deceiving. ;) And also of course, there are many misconceptions about how it applies to solid objects vs spherical bodies in hydrostatic equilibrium, etc, but getting a bit off topic.

Great video, by the way!
 
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More recent discoveries.
Largest system I have personally discovered.
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Triple Herbig system. Never previously encountered 3 in one system.
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One of them was painfully bright and totally overwhelmed my view when I got much closer.
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they definitely don't have it right for their ring systems though (see this post I made about it a while back): https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...are-too-big-(analysis-amp-solutions-included)

I looked at that page just now and you don't quite have the picture correct. The density of objects that we know about is almost never that of a solid chunk. You discuss this fully. The final outcome however is somewhat arbitrary. The Rocks in question are on the order of microns to meters in diameter (in the real world examples from what we know of). The Roche limit is not a kill zone, there is still the ability of objects and ice to exist within that limit, both the solid and liquid limits if they have the structural / material strength to do so. And that is quite important. The differential stress on either extent of an object has to be higher than... probably the sheer or elastic limits for that material.... THUS if you have a solid chunk of ice.... nice and cold.... it will be able to penetrate and orbit well within the Roche limit for a good amount of time before structual creep will cause something to break. If the object is spinning on its own axis, it might never break apart in reality in a perfect collision-less world.

The shepherd moons of Saturn, such as pan as i say in the video... its density is super low... something like 480 kg/m3 rather than say 1000kg/m3 if it was solid water ice. The shape of the object says that Pan is accreting material from the Rings also.

So... no i actually dont think what you said is correct when you actually dig deeper.... the reality is never as cut and dry as people picture it. it is an interesting read and the concepts are correct, though the interpretation is never as black/white as you appear to have taken it.

Best example I can think of or say is... whats to say that some of these ice rings are water ice at all? I mean, Look at the data we have on comets or example... primordial leftovers... often quoted as dirty snowballs.

Density? between 300 - 600 kg/m3 from what we have measured... it would be completely possible for a planet such as a gas giant, to cause the obliteration of a planet due to Stress and the mean density of the debis to be low enough to create the rings we see in Elite.... now you correctly point out that some rings are really more like accetion disks, sure thats cool.

In Truth we have very limited data... statistics of... 2 planets with 'extensive rings' and another 2 with minor rings, we have had a space craft fly through one of saturns gaps, and it is completely full of dust. We have also watched a comet broken appart due to gravitational stress... It isn't a lot of data, and so i think treating these calculations and limits in this very hard stop manner is maybe a little bit much.

That said... i am out exploring currently and might take a look at similar calculations :) its always good to compare and you may indeed be bang on the numbers so to speak, Think i will do the same.

I think from your spreadsheet however for the icy rings, the mean density does come out as 350 and that basically fits all of them roughly into the "OK" Category rather than being too big... Ill see if i can dig up anything for structural strength.
 
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I think the assumptions I made are in the right ballpark for reality. Yes, densities of ring objects can vary but we know that they're metallic, rocky, or icy in ED, and I don't think it's unreasonable to use the density values from our solar system for those. The problem is that the roche calculations are very fuzzy, depending on whether you're looking at solid bodies or fluid bodies. I assumed that the ring particles were fluid (i.e. the object could dissipate tidal energy in a non-rigid way) and calculated the roche limits for full density bodies and for 'half-density' bodies that were half filled with gaps/pores (which seems more realistic than being all solid given that most are going to be "fluffy" or rubble piles) and still came out with most of the rings being too big. Those cover all the 'issues' you mentioned.

Small objects can exist in the roche limit obviously, but they're still basically 'big fragments'. My point was that the ring isn't going to be stable beyond the roche limit, and the majority of the rings that I examined in ED were beyond that limit (sometimes far beyond). Beyond the roche limit there's nothing to stop the particles from accreting into a satellite, and the only 'rings' that we do know about beyond the roche limits are actively maintained by larger satellites like Enceladus or Io or Phoebe (which isn't what we see in ED for those big rings).

The limited data argument is untrue though - we know the physics very well and there's no reason to believe that the physics would change elsewhere. I think I've covered most if not all of the bases in my post.
 
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Well the question on the Roche limits as i say is two fold, one, the two models are quite fuzzy as you already say, they are completely about the formation of large objects close to each other and a point where tidal stress becomes an important consideration. I have no major dispute at all with the treatment and the rough pick of densities, but treatment of the concept is still, in my opinion somewhat vague.

The Roche lines and limit represent the point at which accretion of material onto a seed body, is surpassed, it limits the size of an object on the sole basis that gravitational attraction to the primary body is higher than for two bodies next to each other...and say, a rock on the surface of a body is to its major mass.

There are also two ways in which you may model the rings, and its something i want to check out... which is, rings have a none zero thickness, we know the inner and outer radius and the mass. If modelled as a solid disk, of material of that density, it gives us another option of how the system behaves as though it was rigid. Now thats clearly not an amazing treatment, but it is also relevant, the gravitational field experienced by an outer ring is different to an inner ring.

Also the band structures we observe in rings is another indication our model is rather simplistic and using it as some kind of yes/no absolute is also stretching the meaning of the model. This banding is due to tidal resonance and the presence of shepherds largely.

The formation of a ring also plays a very important role and the presence of other planetary bodies, a gas giant, on its own, may have a ring that is far older than one contained with lots of moons. A planet on its own, its rings will survive as long as it takes to accrete material back onto the primary, and or create a moonlet from the material, this likely wont form right on the roche limit, but in excess of it.

My point about limited data, is true in every meaningful manner, we do know the physics very well, but what we don't know for sure is the absolute history of events and the true ages of these systems. Physics models are quite accurate, but they always include assumptions. Similar to the Roche limit being treated as solid or liquid... while the liquid limit is probably closer to the truth it really still is an assumption and knows nothing of material strength, sheer and elastic limits for the materials in question. Why? Well because its more trouble than its worth and would probably just give us a stable extension outside the roche limit by .... some factor. But its not worth the worry because ball park the Roche treatment appears to work.

It is sort of the difference between trying to examine exactly what is going on, as best you can, or, going with something that seems to fit and stopping there. We don't expect physics to change, but, that is assuming we modelled all the physics correctly in the first place...which... we really have not
 
It is sort of the difference between trying to examine exactly what is going on, as best you can, or, going with something that seems to fit and stopping there. We don't expect physics to change, but, that is assuming we modelled all the physics correctly in the first place...which... we really have not

Evidently we disagree on that. The physics is very well understood for this. Sure, reality can throw some curveballs (usually due to interactions with other bodies outside or within the ring system), but the general principles of tidal disruption are well known. Regardless of the history of events and ages of the systems the physics still works.
 
Four Black Holes in one system at KYLOALL AA-A H295

Four Black Holes in one system !

This isn't common, is it? I've never seen two together so far, let alone four.

As you can see (just about) in the enhanced image of the system map ....

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KYLOALL AA-A H295 is about 2,200 lyrs on the 'north' side of Colonia.

A is 47.57 Solar Masses,
B is 5.88,
C is 8.40,
D is 6.26.

I was unsuccessful in photographing each pair together ... would have been nice if I could have lined them up, but I ran out of patience :rolleyes:
 
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Not sure how rare that is but at least i've never seen such a young star (190m years) with so much planets, so close to the star:

Interesting - planets 8 and 9 are shown as a double planet but they have two different (very close) orbits in the cockpit view? is that how those are normally displayed there?
 
Interesting - planets 8 and 9 are shown as a double planet but they have two different (very close) orbits in the cockpit view? is that how those are normally displayed there?

Actually these are planet 8 & 9 and 10.
I even flew pretty close to these to check of they may somewhen collide but their orbit is slightly too far apart for that.
 
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