Simple Fix to Combat Logging

[Ozric]

Exactly. At least as long as we are talking about online gaming. A cheat is a godmode/wallhack/aimbot basically everything that isn't possible for a normal player while an exploit is the usage of mechanics that are available to everyone but not allowed. There is a difference for both in every league and punishment is handled differently. You'll get banned for using a cheat and you get penalty points for exploits.

I think there are plenty of people who would disagree with that and there are plenty of games that ban exploiters.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Exactly. At least as long as we are talking about online gaming. A cheat is a godmode/wallhack/aimbot basically everything that isn't possible for a normal player while an exploit is the usage of mechanics that are available to everyone but not allowed. There is a difference for both in every league and punishment is handled differently. You'll get banned for using a cheat and you get penalty points for exploits.

Or according to our friend the Oxford dictionary - The very definition of an exploit is cheating:

Exploit:
Take advantage of, make use of, abuse, impose on, prey on, play on, misuse, ill-treat, bleed, suck dry, squeeze, wring, enslave, treat unfairly, withhold rights from;
manipulate, cheat, swindle, fleece, victimize, live off the backs of
informal walk (all) over, take for a ride, put one over on, cash in on, rip off.

 

[KaizoMK]

Hahaha it has everything to do with it. You do realise we all share the same BGS don't you?

You also don't grasp that in the grander scheme of things, a horde of serial combat loggers simply don't matter, even to the bgs.

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cheating in solo is pretty irrelevant, tbh I feel like i'm cheating just by trashing all these Elite Anacondas all day, but cheating vs other players is a harsh detriment to the general experience, to get a similar comparison for solo the NPC's would have to randomly one shot you to really get that cheesed feeling

Its also a cop-out to say all PvP is massive ship vs sidewinder, when I was playing pirate only in vanilla I had a tally for the people that combat logged the most and it was anacondas by an absolute mile, even though they were immune to piracy with any effort whatsoever -_-

Conversely T9's and T6's had a perfect score and I had over 100 T6's.

This is what's relevant. This is the actual problem with combat logging.

 

[AJW]

You also don't grasp that in the grander scheme of things, a horde of serial combat loggers simply don't matter, even to the bgs.

They do if you are paranoid, and 'know for a fact' that it is only players for opposing teams that combat log...

 

[babelfisch]

Yes, its is relative to the discussion, we are both communicating an english speaking fourm. So the Oxford dictionary and the words within used to describe actions does very much apply.

Wrong, because we are in a milieu where the word has a different definition, see my last post about it.

If you are silly enough not to see how someone combat logging when about to be destroyed is cheating then you either naive or being obtuse. Ship destruction receives a penalty, in the form of an insurance cost, by combat logging you are avoiding this penalty, giving you an unfair advantage, in game money you should not have.

Leaving the game is fine, combat logging to avoid ships destruction is cheating.

Maybe I am silly but in my opinion the discussion about combat loggers one of the most childish discussions that I have seen in my entire life.
Anyway combat logging can be an advantage (hence I say it's an exploit) however it might be that someone didn't leave the game because he feared to pay insurance but because he didn't want to play with you. Than he didn't combat log because he wants an advantage but because he isn't interested in PvP. Why should he play in open then? Because according to FDEV the game isn't about PvP.

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Or according to our friend the Oxford dictionary - The very definition of an exploit is cheating:

Exploit:
Take advantage of, make use of, abuse, impose on, prey on, play on, misuse, ill-treat, bleed, suck dry, squeeze, wring, enslave, treat unfairly, withhold rights from;
manipulate, cheat, swindle, fleece, victimize, live off the backs of
informal walk (all) over, take for a ride, put one over on, cash in on, rip off.

Again, we are talking about online computer games. Look at the terms used in the various leagues.

 

[Ozric]

You also don't grasp that in the grander scheme of things, a horde of serial combat loggers simply don't matter, even to the bgs.

Rather belligerent aren't you? Have just 1 example of a horde of serial combat loggers working for minor faction 1 during a civil war, there's a group of other players working for minor faction 2. They are fighting it out for supremacy and victory in the civil war to take over the system. MF 1 keep engaging (or being engaged by) MF 2 and then combat logging after a long drawn out fight, while the rest of the horde who are not being attacked by PCs go on and win the Civil War for MF1, because MF 2 are being kept busy.

It's a very basic scenario because I really can't be bothered to think through all of the far more convoluted ones that are possible. Especially as you won't accept any opposing view to your own as even possible.

This is what's relevant. This is the actual problem with combat logging.

What is the actual problem, that people in Anacondas log? Doesn't make sense.

Again, we are talking about online computer games. Look at the terms used in the various leagues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

We banned many a person from the NWN server I helped run for "exploting"

 

[CylonSurfer]

Again, we are talking about online computer games. Look at the terms used in the various leagues.

We are typing in English, here, now - correct? In English to exploit is a form of cheating, see the Oxford dictionary, that does not change if we're talking about computer games or sporting games such as soccer - you understand this right? It's fine that you feel that combat logging is a "lesser cheat", and personally prefer to call it an exploit to demonstrate your feelings, I agree combat logging doesn't deserve the same penalty as say using LUA code to make you invulnerable. That said, it is cheating and pulling people up on an speaking English speaking forum for calling a spade a spade is ridiculous.

 

[babelfisch]

I think there are plenty of people who would disagree with that and there are plenty of games that ban exploiters.

FDEV said they don't want to ban combat loggers. Anyway leaving the game is not cheating. It never will be. Can it be punishable? Sure.

 

[Robert Maynard]

We are typing in English, here, now - correct? In English to exploit is a form of cheating, see the Oxford dictionary

Sandro's OP in the "Combat Logging": Update thread calls Combat Logging an exploit:

Hello Commanders!

This is a quick update to let you guys know what we’re looking at regarding the issue of “combat logging”.

For clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage.

Commanders might use this exploit the moment they are interdicted or the moment before they are about to be destroyed.

Although this is flagged primarily as a multiplayer concern, the issues (and solutions) apply equally to the single player game.

First things first: we do consider this an undesirable exploit. It’s not “part of the game”.

Because we don’t have an all powerful server running the moment-to-moment game play simulation, there is no infallible arbiter to take control of a player’s ship when they ungracefully exit.

So what we’re doing is logging telemetry that will help us detect when this exploit is explicitly being used.

Right now, all we’re doing (and have already started doing) is looking at and implementing methods of collecting and analysing data.

At some point, however, we will start to take action against Commanders using this exploit. I can only suggest that you should avoid using this exploit if you want to avoid any penalties issued for its use. I'll just repeat: please avoid combat logging - we're taking this issue very seriously.

On a related, but separate track, we’re looking at introducing benefits to Commanders that persevere and stick it out through dangerous encounters, as well as general credit costs and rewards balancing.

I’m not quite ready to talk about these in more detail just now. Obviously though, they can never counter the potential costs of ship destruction, but we want to look at a range of disincentives and incentives both to counter this issue.

I hope this helps clarify our position a little.

 

[babelfisch]

Rather belligerent aren't you? Have just 1 example of a horde of serial combat loggers working for minor faction 1 during a civil war, there's a group of other players working for minor faction 2. They are fighting it out for supremacy and victory in the civil war to take over the system. MF 1 keep engaging (or being engaged by) MF 2 and then combat logging after a long drawn out fight, while the rest of the horde who are not being attacked by PCs go on and win the Civil War for MF1, because MF 2 are being kept busy.

It's a very basic scenario because I really can't be bothered to think through all of the far more convoluted ones that are possible. Especially as you won't accept any opposing view to your own as even possible.



What is the actual problem, that people in Anacondas log? Doesn't make sense.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

We banned many a person from the NWN server I helped run for "exploting"

Ok I accept that my definition of exploits and cheating is wrong/uncommon, but I don't accept that quitting a game is cheating. If someone could show me the oxford or wikipedia entry where quitting a game is listed as a cheat I'll never talk about this topic again

 

[Ozric]

Thanks a lot Robert

Sandro's OP in the "Combat Logging": Update thread calls Combat Logging an exploit:

I don't need to say anything more, not that some will accept it even though the loach's symbiotic partner has spoken.

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Ok I accept that my definition of exploits and cheating is wrong/uncommon, but I don't accept that quitting a game is cheating. If someone could show me the oxford or wikipedia entry where quitting a game is listed as a cheat I'll never talk about this topic again

Why would they need to? If it's considered an exploit and by that definition in the context of online gaming, cheating, then sorted.

 

[KaizoMK]

Rather belligerent aren't you? Have just 1 example of a horde of serial combat loggers working for minor faction 1 during a civil war, there's a group of other players working for minor faction 2. They are fighting it out for supremacy and victory in the civil war to take over the system. MF 1 keep engaging (or being engaged by) MF 2 and then combat logging after a long drawn out fight, while the rest of the horde who are not being attacked by PCs go on and win the Civil War for MF1, because MF 2 are being kept busy.

It's a very basic scenario because I really can't be bothered to think through all of the far more convoluted ones that are possible. Especially as you won't accept any opposing view to your own as even possible.



What is the actual problem, that people in Anacondas log? Doesn't make sense.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

We banned many a person from the NWN server I helped run for "exploting"

A more apt example is merely that out of two players with similar skill, the one that combat logs submits more progress. But overall this is negligible. EDIT: my mistake, after reading it over again you're actually describing just that. The difference in progress is negligible though.

 

[tarks382]

Similar solution:

When someone combat logs or even successfully jumps out, the game should reward the remaining player by an on screen promt that they win.

There should be a flashing icon overlayed in the middle ofnthe screen, covering more than half the area with an arbitrary progress bar under it which will fill up an arbitrary amount with an arbitrary number suffixed with XP next to it. After animating for about two seconds, this icon should merge into the right hand side screen, making the combat rank indicator flash for a moment and fade to normal again.

This should be entirely visual, no effect on the actual rank.

"When someone combat logs or even successfully jumps out..."

Hang on a minute - successfully jumping out is a skillful and desirable aim if you're outgunned and on the ropes. Keeping a cool head, plotting a destination, holding it together to ESCAPE is called SURVIVAL. If you're in a foxhole with a brigade bearing down on you standing up with your popgun is a fool's ending.

In such circumstances, if the predator (with whom I have no problem in principle) fails to finish their prey, well, they didn't win did they?

 

[KaizoMK]

Thanks a lot Robert



I don't need to say anything more, not that some will accept it even though the loach's symbiotic partner has spoken.

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Why would they need to? If it's considered an exploit and by that definition in the context of online gaming, cheating, then sorted.

But their definition and ruling is inconsistent with everything that's similar to it in design and exploitation.

 

[babelfisch]

Thanks a lot Robert



I don't need to say anything more, not that some will accept it even though the loach's symbiotic partner has spoken.

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Why would they need to? If it's considered an exploit and by that definition in the context of online gaming, cheating, then sorted.

Have you read the wiki entry?

 

[AJW]

Wikipedia isn't an authoratative source for the day of the week...

 

[babelfisch]

Wikipedia isn't an authoratative source for the day of the week...

Neither is the oxford dictionary when it comes to the definition of combat logging and if it's cheating or an exploit or both.

 

[Ozric]

But their definition and ruling is inconsistent with everything that's similar to it in design and exploitation.

I can't be bothered with this pointless circling and semi cryptic rubbish any longer.

Have you read the wiki entry?

Yes. Exploiting can be definied as cheating. Sandro and FD define combat logging as an exploit. ergo.

I'm done now.

Wikipedia isn't an authoratative source for the day of the week...

Wikipedia isn't an authority on anything, but when you have people belligerently arguing the toss over anything and everything, it's the best I have while at work and trying to stop myself from putting my head through my monitor

 

[KaizoMK]

I can't be bothered with this pointless circling and semi cryptic rubbish any longer.



Yes. Exploiting can be definied as cheating. Sandro and FD define combat logging as an exploit. ergo.

I'm done now.



Wikipedia isn't an authority on anything, but when you have people belligerently arguing the toss over anything and everything, it's the best I have while at work and trying to stop myself from putting my head through my monitor

I can't be bothered with this pointless circling and semi cryptic rubbish any longer.

 

[babelfisch]

I can't be bothered with this pointless circling and semi cryptic rubbish any longer.



Yes. Exploiting can be definied as cheating. Sandro and FD define combat logging as an exploit. ergo.

I'm done now.



Wikipedia isn't an authority on anything, but when you have people belligerently arguing the toss over anything and everything, it's the best I have while at work and trying to stop myself from putting my head through my monitor

But the wikipedia article specifically states that an exploit is not necessarily a cheat, just read it yourself.