Some interesting PvP / C&P observations

Old Duck

Old Duck
This weekend was my first serious "study" of PvP at a CG on PC, and it's been months since I've PvPed on PS4. I observed a few things, performed a few experiments, and came to a few conclusions that may be right or wrong. I'm sharing these for discussion.

First thing I noticed is that when Oreocookie (one of the two CG systems) started to fill with "we like to blow ships up" people, I was perplexed as to why most of them were not wanted. One person blew me up multiple times, they seemed to pick me out of other ships and they were never wanted or had notoriety (that I noticed), nor did any system authority ships come to my rescue. I found this very perplexing, and I even checked the map to make sure I wasn't unknowingly in an Anarchy. Then this person got into a fight with someone more their equal, so I jumped in to get a few licks in, and I caught their comms about killing Feds only.

Hmmmm..... Ahhhh!!!

That's when it dawned on me. At this point I depledged from Zach Hudson (PP is pretty much useless to me right now except for roleplay), and all of the sudden I find myself being ignored by a number of the G-Force team. There were still a few interdictions and assaults, but no where near as many as before. I was now a Hauler swimming in a sea of hungry FDLs, and I was surprisingly (relatively speaking) safe. So my conclusion is that C&P is a deterrent to griefing / ganking, but since PP is legitimate PvP, it allows for players to blow up other players with lower consequences. Unfortunately many of the "carebears" don't seem to realize this, and that's why so many people fled to Solo and then lamented in the shared system chat about being blown up for no reason. This is something that goes way back to when I used to PP PvP on PS4 - people yelling at me for attacking them when they clearly are labeled ENEMY for supporting an opposing power. Y'all need to read up on PP and C&P and look at some of Frontier's videos from Sandro on the matter. If you can't stand the PP heat, get out of the PP kitchen :p

Speaking of "enemy", I also noticed some weird things that feel like bugs, so many somebody can confirm. Back when I was playing on PS4, PP enemies were clearly labeled as such in bold red text. I no longer see this label on PC. I also no longer see the cool "somebody is being interdicted somewhere" effect anymore. This weekend I was trying to come to the rescue of hapless traders, but observing interdictions was much more challenging without this effect. Thirdly, when I select a low wake, there is no distance and time counter like I get when selecting any other POI (station, signal source, etc.) to help me gauge my speed and not overshoot. What's going on there? Are all these missing things bugs, or is PS4 just better than PC when it comes to PvP? Oh, and the terrible rubber-banding and skipping and stuck interdictions (you win but it never lets you out of the tunnel) - is all this new, or again, is PS4 better than PC when it comes to networking? I'm very tempted to update my PS4 version of the game just to do a comparison.

Anyway, I found all this science and observation to be quite fascinating. Oh, and people did finally show up to bring justice to the law-breakers. That was fun to observe and participate in. I might even be interested in joining a "Peacekeeper" squadron if there is such a thing!

iu
 
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Old Duck

Old Duck
Oh, I also observed a solo "griefer" hesitate and then chose not to attack a trading Conda that was in a wing with my Vulture. This was probably the most fun of the gameplay I had this weekend at the CG, providing escort for another trader. I suspect our wing of two would not have been a deterrence against a full wing of 4 gank squad, but perhaps a trader with three escorts would have been.

Speaking of, I keep reading posts in this forum about how wing escorts are ineffective, but these posts are apparently academic, as that's not what my real (well, virtual) world experience has shown. Seeing that I also made "free" credits by winging up with a trader, I'm really kinda baffled why more players don't participate in trader escort gameplay.
 

galahad2069

G
PowerPlay bounties don't give you notoriety and can be paid off at the nearest IFC.

The "Enemy" signs only show up on PP opponents in their control system where you can do the undermining business IIRC.

As for the bugs, there are a load of them indeed, like the "Need Scan" low wakes in supercruise etc.
 

Florenus

Florenus
So, I guess the bottom line is... most of those griefers were not actually griefers, but people involved in PP?

I never pledged to any power, but I noticed people basically use that option freely, as a way to "grind" for more equipment, without looking at any (let's say) roleplaying element. Alliance squadrons are full of people pledged to Empire, or some other Superpower. And the other way around. Aisling Duval has most followers that way I think.
 

Wimmer

Wimmer
@Old Duck I saw what you did there in this crazy shieldless Hauler :D

Yesterday I saw a real hero. One guy in T9 carrying goods. Every time when he jumped into the system he sent a message like: "Non-combat ship need assistance on route to Shifnalport". He made many courses back and forth giving the good gameplay for himself for gankers and for enforcers too. Kudos for this Commander.
 

Old Duck

Old Duck
Florenus said:
So, I guess the bottom line is... most of those griefers were not actually griefers, but people involved in PP?
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Well, "involved in PP" may be a bit of a stretch, but I honestly don't know. Do you earn merits for killing a player of an opposing power, even when they aren't in a control system as @galahad2069 mentions?

If nothing else, it's "fair game" PvP, though TBH all PvP is "fair game" in ED. It's not "Fair and Balanced" like Fox News (haha), but it's allowed. When I use "griefer" to define people who kill defenseless traders for fun, I see it as an actual role in the game that Frontier gave us, not a derogatory term (like "cheater" would be) that should trigger anyone. When people do get triggered by this, it must be because of stereotypes that I'm unaware of. I just find "griefer" easier to type that "purple-haired heroes", LOL.
 

Old Duck

Old Duck
Wimmer said:
@Old Duck I saw what you did there in this crazy shieldless Hauler :D

Yesterday I saw a real hero. One guy in T9 carrying goods. Every time when he jumped into the system he sent a message like: "Non-combat ship need assistance on route to Shifnalport". He made many courses back and forth giving the good gameplay for himself for gankers and for enforcers too. Kudos for this Commander.
Click to expand...
We blame Frontier for the lack of content and gameplay, but they've given us the tools for some really engaging gameplay IMO. I had a blast escorting a CMDR on Saturday. I stayed in system as she went to get cargo, so I could provide recon for her return and support once she jumped into the system. Being in a wing was enough to repel many attacks, and the one battle we did get in, we won due to our combined firepower. I'm not sure why more CMDRs don't utilize wings in this way, unless the majority of ED players truly want a peaceful space trucking sim with no danger (ironic considering the threads lamenting that NPCs are not dangerous enough). 🤷
 

galahad2069

G
Old Duck said:
Well, "involved in PP" may be a bit of a stretch, but I honestly don't know. Do you earn merits for killing a player of an opposing power, even when they aren't in a control system as @galahad2069 mentions?

If nothing else, it's "fair game" PvP, though TBH all PvP is "fair game" in ED. It's not "Fair and Balanced" like Fox News (haha), but it's allowed. When I use "griefer" to define people who kill defenseless traders for fun, I see it as an actual role in the game that Frontier gave us, not a derogatory term (like "cheater" would be) that should trigger anyone. When people do get triggered by this, it must be because of stereotypes that I'm unaware of. I just find "griefer" easier to type that "purple-haired heroes", LOL.
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I think you only get merits for kills if you are actually undermining (i.e. you are killing enemy ships in an enemy control system). At least that's how it works with NPC's, there's very little reason why it should work otherwise with CMDR kills. But you are (relatively) free to kill PP pledged ships (including CMDR's) anywhere. I mean you won't get notoriety points for it, not even if you kill someone pledged to the same power as you.
 
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jasonbarron

jasonbarron
Old Duck said:
We blame Frontier for the lack of content and gameplay, but they've given us the tools for some really engaging gameplay IMO. I had a blast escorting a CMDR on Saturday. I stayed in system as she went to get cargo, so I could provide recon for her return and support once she jumped into the system. Being in a wing was enough to repel many attacks, and the one battle we did get in, we won due to our combined firepower. I'm not sure why more CMDRs don't utilize wings in this way, unless the majority of ED players truly want a peaceful space trucking sim with no danger (ironic considering the threads lamenting that NPCs are not dangerous enough). 🤷
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All the awesome gameplay mechanisms that Frontier have provided are utterly and incontrovertibly neutered by mode switching and block exploiting. Remove those and we'd have one of the best game's ever made.
 
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Aashenfox

Aashenfox
Old Duck said:
This weekend was my first serious "study" of PvP at a CG on PC, and it's been months since I've PvPed on PS4. I observed a few things, performed a few experiments, and came to a few conclusions that may be right or wrong. I'm sharing these for discussion.

First thing I noticed is that when Oreocookie (one of the two CG systems) started to fill with "we like to blow ships up" people, I was perplexed as to why most of them were not wanted. One person blew me up multiple times, they seemed to pick me out of other ships and they were never wanted or had notoriety (that I noticed), nor did any system authority ships come to my rescue. I found this very perplexing, and I even checked the map to make sure I wasn't unknowingly in an Anarchy. Then this person got into a fight with someone more their equal, so I jumped in to get a few licks in, and I caught their comms about killing Feds only.

Hmmmm..... Ahhhh!!!

That's when it dawned on me. At this point I depledged from Zach Hudson (PP is pretty much useless to me right now except for roleplay), and all of the sudden I find myself being ignored by a number of the G-Force team. There were still a few interdictions and assaults, but no where near as many as before. I was now a Hauler swimming in a sea of hungry FDLs, and I was surprisingly (relatively speaking) safe. So my conclusion is that C&P is a deterrent to griefing / ganking, but since PP is legitimate PvP, it allows for players to blow up other players with lower consequences. Unfortunately many of the "carebears" don't seem to realize this, and that's why so many people fled to Solo and then lamented in the shared system chat about being blown up for no reason. This is something that goes way back to when I used to PP PvP on PS4 - people yelling at me for attacking them when they clearly are labeled ENEMY for supporting an opposing power. Y'all need to read up on PP and C&P and look at some of Frontier's videos from Sandro on the matter. If you can't stand the PP heat, get out of the PP kitchen :p

Speaking of "enemy", I also noticed some weird things that feel like bugs, so many somebody can confirm. Back when I was playing on PS4, PP enemies were clearly labeled as such in bold red text. I no longer see this label on PC. I also no longer see the cool "somebody is being interdicted somewhere" effect anymore. This weekend I was trying to come to the rescue of hapless traders, but observing interdictions was much more challenging without this effect. Thirdly, when I select a low wake, there is no distance and time counter like I get when selecting any other POI (station, signal source, etc.) to help me gauge my speed and not overshoot. What's going on there? Are all these missing things bugs, or is PS4 just better than PC when it comes to PvP? Oh, and the terrible rubber-banding and skipping and stuck interdictions (you win but it never lets you out of the tunnel) - is all this new, or again, is PS4 better than PC when it comes to networking? I'm very tempted to update my PS4 version of the game just to do a comparison.

Anyway, I found all this science and observation to be quite fascinating. Oh, and people did finally show up to bring justice to the law-breakers. That was fun to observe and participate in. I might even be interested in joining a "Peacekeeper" squadron if there is such a thing!

iu
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I'm disappointed I didn't get a personal mention after you bumped into me switching ships in diso :) I'd love to give you guest tags on our discord to get a flavor if you'd like.
 

Drelthar

Drelthar
It is VERY annoying that the low wakes don't have all the same info as any other super cruise destination - it makes it tougher to move in on them fast, for the one thing you REALLY need to move in on fast!

I have to agree with all the things about greifing not being so bad. I was hoping between the two CG systems (more CG's with systems right next door please!) and saw a lot of combat ships, most of them appeared to be protecting traders (from...er... me...) and others seemed to be legit pirates (their loadouts included actual piracy equipment)

As for that commander messaging the system to say "Aid ship coming through" yeah, that was pretty cool. I never even managed to interdict him once though - always got pulled by one of the defenders as I was closing in on him.

I had some really sweet situations where I ended up having to run - sometimes I'd manage to disable the trader first, sometimes I'd be part way through doing that, sometimes I'd manage to snag a couple of canisters - before the protectors arrived guns blazing and I had to scream some expletives in fear and flee.

Sometimes no one came, and I got a full hold of goods too.
 

Old Duck

Old Duck
galahad2069 said:
I think you only get merits for kills f you are actually undermining (i.e. you are killing enemy ships in an enemy control system). At least that's how it works with NPC's, there's very little reason why it should work otherwise with CMDR kills. But you are (relatively) free to kill PP pledged ships (including CMDR's) anywhere. I mean you won't get notoriety points for it, not even if you kill someone pledged to the same power as you.
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I understand why this is, yet I kinda wish, for the sake of immersion, a more sophisticated system existed for CGs. Anyone attacking a trader ship carrying requested aid to a system should be immediately marked hostile in that system, regardless of Power pledge. People are starving and the police just sit back while food shipment is destroyed because "Oh well, they're each other's enemy, so we'll let them sort it out, food be damned." This makes zero sense IMO.
 

Wimmer

Wimmer
I would like to see something new, maybe some new module allowing us to do a quick jump to somebody's low wake when he is interdicted.
 

Aashenfox

Aashenfox
Old Duck said:
No offense, seriously none meant, but I prefer using in-game tools only. I'm not a fan of Discord nor do I want to have to attend committee meetings on Inara. If there are no Squadrons that exclusively use the in-game tools, then I'll just remain a freelance escort for now.
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None taken, I respect not wanting an app like discord in one's life. However, given that there are no tools for in game collaboration, discord is where the squadron exists far more than in the game, without it you would have no clue what was going on and for most organised squadrons, I have to assume that's also the case. I see from your specific statements that you've had bad luck with these kinds of organisations in hte past, I'm reminded of a particularly officious STO squadron I was once in). We are not like that, at all. Super relaxed, it's nothing more than a themed series of chatrooms covering various aspects of our activities at various levels where only respectful people discuss operations and more than that tips and tricks of the game. Minimal pings, zero meetings guaranteed, if you don't pay attention it's fine, but if you do there's plenty going on. We also have some very special tools and toys but you'd only see those if you joined the squadron proper. ;)
 

Chorda

Chorda
We have the Fuel Rats and the Void Seals, it'd be great if there were another similarly organised group you could contact for armed escorts. It'd put this sort of gameplay firmly on the map.
 

Aashenfox

Aashenfox
Chorda said:
We have the Fuel Rats and the Void Seals, it'd be great if there were another similarly organised group you could contact for armed escorts. It'd put this sort of gameplay firmly on the map.
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We, just some of many good guys, would also find that to be great, if only there was some way a single escort, or even a wing of escorts, could protect a ship for long enough from a 4 man wing to let them escape. This is always down to the outfitting of the ship being focused.

Either they are sufficiently outfitted to survive the gank, in which case, they don't need an escort, or, they are not sufficiently outfitted to survive the gank and there is nothing a one, two or even three man escort can do about that.

We generally focus on engaging them to keep them busy and try to drive them away from certain areas. Really, it just ends up being for -for-tat pvp battles which both sides mostly enjoy, since believe it or not, most gankers would prefer to meet good players in combat than blow up haulers (I said most, not all). ;)
 
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