Spring dlc Speculation 2023

[DarthQuell]

In the case of ibises, having them as habitat is better because I typically see them on the ground, wading. Essentially, in-game they'll behave like flamingos. If you want it to be realistic, then just build a mesh over them.

In the case of birds that take to the skies often, I'd want them to be WEs because I feel like a free-flying system will be wonky and glitchy

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

Dear heavens, seems like the argument about ibises being fit for habitat or aviary animals. It is interesting when most people are heckbent on animal realism, but the fact that ibis are predominantly kept in covered aviaries seem to be an exception. The fact that ibises perch at any given moment and that they nest above ground is dismissed because ibis are wading birds is pretty ludicrous.

Now for the examples of sacred ibises given by Cynogale benetti, they are interesting. However the number of these examples is small compared to the number of closed top ibis aviaries. Not to mention these examples are pretty old with the most recent posts being from 2011.

I like realism in animal choice and what not and its the style i like building in BUT at the same time gameplay > realism so imo if something could work as an habitat animal, i dont care if zoos do it or not cause i can allways simulate a real zoo setting with an habitat animal if i wanted to by putting mesh over it while having the unarguably better animal as even WEs arnt close to perfect, good enough for the butterflys but underwhelming for bats and anything larger due to size constrains and similar.
Is it leagues better then the boxes? Hell yeah
Is it even close to being equal to a full fletched habitat animal? Heavens no and they propaply will never be

 

[Chuditch]

Australian White ibis - habitat

In this particular case I'm fairly certain the ibises here aren't deliberately being exhibited, they're just wild birds nesting on zoo grounds (Taronga Western Plains Zoo based on the file name). My local city zoo has a ton of them and they breed in the trees above the pelican habitat.

 

[HunterIsCookie]

In this particular case I'm fairly certain the ibises here aren't deliberately being exhibited, they're just wild birds nesting on zoo grounds (Taronga Western Plains Zoo based on the file name). My local city zoo has a ton of them and they breed in the trees above the pelican habitat.

Only Aussie ibis I've heard being purposefully showcased at a zoo here (i.e, not some rando whites or straw-necks showing up and refusing to leave) are Glossy Ibises.

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

In the case of ibises, having them as habitat is better because I typically see them on the ground, wading. Essentially, in-game they'll behave like flamingos. If you want it to be realistic, then just build a mesh over them.

In the case of birds that take to the skies often, I'd want them to be WEs because I feel like a free-flying system will be wonky and glitchy

I honestly doubt that.
Imo we dont need "true" free flight for most birds cause when you look at birds, how do they fly in zoos?
Its to go from one perching spot to the next, often just flutter jumping or gliding a short distance with most of the time sitting on things, walking on the ground or in case of parrots climbing around.
We allready have free climbing animals and animals being able to jump from piece to piece, so this really would just be a lenghtend jump with different animations, which in fact also allready is in the game with peafowl, flamingos and cranes all 3 being able to flutter jump to quickly get from a to b where they fly a short distances.
Only frantic small birds like kolibris and larger groups of budgies or lorikeets would better fit the WE from that standpoint, as it looks really bad with just a few animals but quite nice with lots of them around.
Id love it to be more customisable in size path and enritchment location ofcourse, but for these birds it still be fine as they also are way more active flyers

 

[Captain Callum]

Is it that time of the month again, aviary arguments are always so exciting. I'll just say ibis are better as a habitat bird due to their likely ingame nature , it's not like we are not talking about macaws or lorikeets to be an open habitat bird

 

[SalamAnders]

Is it really necessary to keep pointing out that you can build an aviary around your habitat or that you can make the WE completely open-air?
One option is not more realistic than the other for birds when it comes to enclosure design. What system they should be part of is all about their behavior. And flying is not the key behavior for every bird.

Why would we want birds that spend most of their time on the ground or sitting still in a tree/cliff on flying loops, how is that more believable?

 

[Nausicaaa 22]

Now that we are on the subject of flying birds, I must clarify an idea that I have already said many times, but it has bases
In fact, including flying birds would not be the easiest choice for Frontier to make, but seeing the great work they do I see them fully capable of doing them.

The best chance for everyone is to gradually include flying birds in different dlcs. Since not everyone likes birds and prefers other animals, making a dlc with normal animals and flying birds sounds pretty good. For example, a rainforests animal pack. Red river hogs, sloths, monkeys, and all this, highly requested animals and other questionable choices. But, with the change of the WE, which can now house flying birds, such as macaws, toucans, turacos, hornbills or mynas. Just think about it: They would satisfy the part of the people who prefer terrestrial and very requested animals, and the other part that wants flying birds a lot. It's two birds with one shot, literally.

Now, how they will work is something difficult to know, but not impossible: As we have already seen, Frontier is capable of making flying animals, such as bats or butterflies. Why waste the opportunity? Free flight I don't see it as necessary. Yes, it would be more realistic and better, but let's remember that the bats and butterflies have semi-cyclical animations, but well achieved. Not every bird spends all of it's time flying, so a well implemented perch and loop fly animations should work properly.

Also for emphasis: Butterflies can currently land on visitors, which amazed me knowing they have more or less looped animations, so I can perfectly see a lovebird landing on someone's finger.

Now the important thing: What species do we need? It seems like a simple question, but it is not. In the hands of habitat birds it is easy, and I have what I think are the best candidates: Mallard, a Swan, Great White Pelican, Shoebill, Secretary Bird, a Guineafowl and a Kiwi. But, in the hand of the flyers, I have to make some choices that must be consistent with the representation of each group of birds, so my selection as possible candidates would be this:

1: Blue and Golden Macaw
2: Scarlet Macaw
3: Toco Tucan
4: Indian Hornbill
5: Great Blue Turaco
6: Bald Eagle
7: Eurasian Eagle Owl
8: Barn Owl
9: Harris Hawk
10: Peregrine Falcon
11: Sulphur-Crested Cockatoo
12: Atlantic Puffin
13: Harpy Eagle
14: Rainbow Lorikeet
15: Grey African Parrot

Not the perfect selection, but a good one. There are too many interesting flying birds out there, it's impossible to me to make a perfect list, at least it has very requested birds and representative of every Continent.

I know is a bit long, but I hoped you liked the idea

 

[SalamAnders]

 

[DarthQuell]

I honestly doubt that.
Imo we dont need "true" free flight for most birds cause when you look at birds, how do they fly in zoos?
Its to go from one perching spot to the next, often just flutter jumping or gliding a short distance with most of the time sitting on things, walking on the ground or in case of parrots climbing around.
We allready have free climbing animals and animals being able to jump from piece to piece, so this really would just be a lenghtend jump with different animations, which in fact also allready is in the game with peafowl, flamingos and cranes all 3 being able to flutter jump to quickly get from a to b where they fly a short distances.
Only frantic small birds like kolibris and larger groups of budgies or lorikeets would better fit the WE from that standpoint, as it looks really bad with just a few animals but quite nice with lots of them around.
Id love it to be more customisable in size path and enritchment location ofcourse, but for these birds it still be fine as they also are way more active flyers

I see this, but I'm also concerned of what if it's messed up at 1st. I guess I'm in that middle ground where the WEs are the "safe" bet while the habitats are better to build larger things.

To be honest, though, there's also a chance that we won't get birds at all. Everybody said that December is when the super special features come out, but we didn't get much last December (I mean, the pack was great, but besides that it wasn't a lot)...

 

[Captain Callum]

I see this, but I'm also concerned of what if it's messed up at 1st. I guess I'm in that middle ground where the WEs are the "safe" bet while the habitats are better to build larger things.

To be honest, though, there's also a chance that we won't get birds at all. Everybody said that December is when the super special features come out, but we didn't get much last December (I mean, the pack was great, but besides that it wasn't a lot)...

Still just speculation that the winter dlc is the last, planet coaster had the final dlc in June. Although I would be disappointed if the 'big update' was just another campaign, since I have yet to complete the very first campaign mission. Alot of people really want fully working free flight or marine mammals as the final addition but I don't see either happening personally.

Birds are likely restricted to WE and habitats since the performance really can't handle say 30-40 free flying birds. While it would be wonderful to see a free flight aviary for realism, WE's offer us pretty much the same experience as walking through a butterfly exhibit is quite impressive and loops can actually be hard to tell apart (unlike bats). I will probably draw the line at macaws for the WE, anything larger really will be obvious loops or totally unrealistic behaviour for larger birds,
I'm looking at like sunbitterns, ibis, hornbills etc that would be awful additions if added into a WE

 

[DarthQuell]

unlike bats

I mean, yes and no. It can break immersion if you have like 10, but what if you had 35? Would that work? I think I've seen videos of that many bats in the WEs and it wasn't as noticeable

I draw the line at macaws for the WE, anything larger really needs to be a habitat bird

Does anybody think we'll get anything larger than this in-game?

 

[Captain Callum]

I think I've seen videos of that many bats in the WEs and it wasn't as noticeable

I mean yeah if you have like an entire cave of bats it can be hard to notice individual loops but then I typically have like 10 or so bats. Either frontier improved the loops with the butterflies or having more animals allows for more seamless loop switching between animals

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

I honestly doubt that.
Imo we dont need "true" free flight for most birds cause when you look at birds, how do they fly in zoos?
Its to go from one perching spot to the next, often just flutter jumping or gliding a short distance with most of the time sitting on things, walking on the ground or in case of parrots climbing around.
We allready have free climbing animals and animals being able to jump from piece to piece, so this really would just be a lenghtend jump with different animations, which in fact also allready is in the game with peafowl, flamingos and cranes all 3 being able to flutter jump to quickly get from a to b where they fly a short distances.
Only frantic small birds like kolibris and larger groups of budgies or lorikeets would better fit the WE from that standpoint, as it looks really bad with just a few animals but quite nice with lots of them around.
Id love it to be more customisable in size path and enritchment location ofcourse, but for these birds it still be fine as they also are way more active flyers

To continue my thought from here, theres something i said one year ago about flying birds i still stand by to this day, way back when the WE was something nobody could have ever guessed.
Theres one animal that in my opinion would be the perfect prototype to test flying birds as habitat animals on, where you get away with a mostly grounded bird as much as with flamingos and cranes, while also testing path finding to "super jump" to get to higher platforms, starting with rather big spaces and a bird that would perch on most smaller things anyways, while also bringing something incredibly iconic to an underrated region that defently would not fit in the WE, im sure you know who he is from a picture

The bird im talking about is ofcourse, the Andean Condor, the largest flying bird of prey in the world.
These magnificent birds would be in my opinion the best test subject for aviary birds in habitats for multiple reasons.
While common in zoos with 56 EAZA holdings and many more in northamerica and many successfull reintroduction into the wild of zoobred individuals, they fit the game on a thematic level like a glove and from a gameplay side, their mostly terrestrial nature in zoos fits them aswell. They mostly walk around, only using their wings to get onto often large and rocky perch spots, which mimics the behaviour that the other 3 flight capeable birds in the game show aswell, even if in a less vertical sense.
They also are prime candidates to come in an otherwise rather uncompeted for pack, a mountains pack, especally if it should be an an animal pack and serve as a very clear buying incentive for everybody as our first "flying" bird.
Just imagine a pack featuring the andean condor and the spectacle bear from the andes, a takin and the domestic yak from the himalaya, the alpine marmot from the alps, the yellow footed rock wallaby from a land down under and the barbary sheep from africa + whatever exhibit. Many great and important animals spearheaded by the condor while also being imo more then believable.
And the implications for great packs are great aswell! Just imagine for a second getting a new bird each pack after expanding on the flying birds. First a turkey vulture in a desert pack thats able to perch on more smaller pieces, macaws in a rainforest pack that would expand it even more by bringing climbing into the mix and so one and so forth.
Temperate pack? Eurasian Eagle Owl or Northern Hoshawk
An now actually quite proising tundra pack with the wolverine, muskox, walrus and snowy owls?
A barnyard or whatever pack? Barn Owl

We could expand from one flying animal to many easily without alienating anybody this way while frontier has the time and ressources to fix bugs and problems, slowly expanding the feature till we could actually be ready for an aviary scenery pack all about them.

Is it a pipe dream? Maybe, but imo its a rather realistic one that would let frontier dip into the flying birds one bird at a time instead of just hoping that their first dry will work flawlessly.
And whos better to be the first and most clunkiest bird then the literally largest aviary bird thats commonly held?


.

 

[Captain Callum]

To continue my thought from here, theres something i said one year ago about flying birds i still stand by to this day, way back when the WE was something nobody could have ever guessed.
Theres one animal that in my opinion would be the perfect prototype to test flying birds as habitat animals on, where you get away with a mostly grounded bird as much as with flamingos and cranes, while also testing path finding to "super jump" to get to higher platforms, starting with rather big spaces and a bird that would perch on most smaller things anyways, while also bringing something incredibly iconic to an underrated region that defently would not fit in the WE, im sure you know who he is from a picture
View attachment 346886

The bird im talking about is ofcourse, the Andean Condor, the largest flying bird of prey in the world.
These magnificent birds would be in my opinion the best test subject for aviary birds in habitats for multiple reasons.
While common in zoos with 56 EAZA holdings and many more in northamerica and many successfull reintroduction into the wild of zoobred individuals, they fit the game on a thematic level like a glove and from a gameplay side, their mostly terrestrial nature in zoos fits them aswell. They mostly walk around, only using their wings to get onto often large and rocky perch spots, which mimics the behaviour that the other 3 flight capeable birds in the game show aswell, even if in a less vertical sense.
They also are prime candidates to come in an otherwise rather uncompeted for pack, a mountains pack, especally if it should be an an animal pack and serve as a very clear buying incentive for everybody as our first "flying" bird.
Just imagine a pack featuring the andean condor and the spectacle bear from the andes, a takin and the domestic yak from the himalaya, the alpine marmot from the alps, the yellow footed rock wallaby from a land down under and the barbary sheep from africa + whatever exhibit. Many great and important animals spearheaded by the condor while also being imo more then believable.
And the implications for great packs are great aswell! Just imagine for a second getting a new bird each pack after expanding on the flying birds. First a turkey vulture in a desert pack thats able to perch on more smaller pieces, macaws in a rainforest pack that would expand it even more by bringing climbing into the mix and so one and so forth.
Temperate pack? Eurasian Eagle Owl or Northern Hoshawk
An now actually quite proising tundra pack with the wolverine, muskox, walrus and snowy owls?
A barnyard or whatever pack? Barn Owl

We could expand from one flying animal to many easily without alienating anybody this way while frontier has the time and ressources to fix bugs and problems, slowly expanding the feature till we could actually be ready for an aviary scenery pack all about them.

Is it a pipe dream? Maybe, but imo its a rather realistic one that would let frontier dip into the flying birds one bird at a time instead of just hoping that their first dry will work flawlessly.
And whos better to be the first and most clunkiest bird then the literally largest aviary bird thats commonly held?


.

Yeah I agree that large birds of prey are the perfect animals to test out flying mechanics as they behave like the WE animals anyways. We still don't know if flying birds are even still on the table with the WE's but considering the slow progression of bird like mechanics like flying loops and much smaller butterflies with rapid wing movements and even that butterflies landing on people may give us an idea what frontier may be working towards

 

[DarthQuell]

To continue my thought from here, theres something i said one year ago about flying birds i still stand by to this day, way back when the WE was something nobody could have ever guessed.
Theres one animal that in my opinion would be the perfect prototype to test flying birds as habitat animals on, where you get away with a mostly grounded bird as much as with flamingos and cranes, while also testing path finding to "super jump" to get to higher platforms, starting with rather big spaces and a bird that would perch on most smaller things anyways, while also bringing something incredibly iconic to an underrated region that defently would not fit in the WE, im sure you know who he is from a picture
View attachment 346886

The bird im talking about is ofcourse, the Andean Condor, the largest flying bird of prey in the world.
These magnificent birds would be in my opinion the best test subject for aviary birds in habitats for multiple reasons.
While common in zoos with 56 EAZA holdings and many more in northamerica and many successfull reintroduction into the wild of zoobred individuals, they fit the game on a thematic level like a glove and from a gameplay side, their mostly terrestrial nature in zoos fits them aswell. They mostly walk around, only using their wings to get onto often large and rocky perch spots, which mimics the behaviour that the other 3 flight capeable birds in the game show aswell, even if in a less vertical sense.
They also are prime candidates to come in an otherwise rather uncompeted for pack, a mountains pack, especally if it should be an an animal pack and serve as a very clear buying incentive for everybody as our first "flying" bird.
Just imagine a pack featuring the andean condor and the spectacle bear from the andes, a takin and the domestic yak from the himalaya, the alpine marmot from the alps, the yellow footed rock wallaby from a land down under and the barbary sheep from africa + whatever exhibit. Many great and important animals spearheaded by the condor while also being imo more then believable.
And the implications for great packs are great aswell! Just imagine for a second getting a new bird each pack after expanding on the flying birds. First a turkey vulture in a desert pack thats able to perch on more smaller pieces, macaws in a rainforest pack that would expand it even more by bringing climbing into the mix and so one and so forth.
Temperate pack? Eurasian Eagle Owl or Northern Hoshawk
An now actually quite proising tundra pack with the wolverine, muskox, walrus and snowy owls?
A barnyard or whatever pack? Barn Owl

We could expand from one flying animal to many easily without alienating anybody this way while frontier has the time and ressources to fix bugs and problems, slowly expanding the feature till we could actually be ready for an aviary scenery pack all about them.

Is it a pipe dream? Maybe, but imo its a rather realistic one that would let frontier dip into the flying birds one bird at a time instead of just hoping that their first dry will work flawlessly.
And whos better to be the first and most clunkiest bird then the literally largest aviary bird thats commonly held?


.

Yeah I agree that large birds of prey are the perfect animals to test out flying mechanics as they behave like the WE animals anyways. We still don't know if flying birds are even still on the table with the WE's but considering the slow progression of bird like mechanics like flying loops and much smaller butterflies with rapid wing movements and even that butterflies landing on people may give us an idea what frontier may be working towards

I'd have to agree that, as of right now, these are the only birds that I'd be ok without true flight.
I don't know about other continents, but when I see birds of prey (bald eagles), these are always rescues that lack flight, so the they live in open enclosures (either open top or an opening elsewhere where an animal would typically escape).

But that doesn't mean I want all raptors to come into the game as rescues (or clones)...

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

Yeah I agree that large birds of prey are the perfect animals to test out flying mechanics as they behave like the WE animals anyways. We still don't know if flying birds are even still on the table with the WE's but considering the slow progression of bird like mechanics like flying loops and much smaller butterflies with rapid wing movements and even that butterflies landing on people may give us an idea what frontier may be working towards

No i mean straight up andean condor as an habitat animal. Free flight is overrated as hell anyways cause when was the last time in a zoo where youve seen a bird larger then a lorikeet fly for longer then 10 seconds outside of a free flying show? They literally just "jump" from a to b, something habitat birds allready do, so just them go up vertically and youve got your "flying" habitat birds without any silly restrictions

 

[Captain Callum]

No i mean straight up andean condor as an habitat animal. Free flight is overrated as hell anyways cause when was the last time in a zoo where youve seen a bird larger then a lorikeet fly for longer then 10 seconds outside of a free flying show? They literally just "jump" from a to b, something habitat birds allready do, so just them go up vertically and youve got your "flying" habitat birds without any silly restrictions

Ah ok yeah eagles and the like kinda just 'jump' if we are going with that term. As I mentioned before the flamingos and cranes already have jumping animations where they spread their wings so not too far off an idea

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

Ah ok yeah eagles and the like kinda just 'jump' if we are going with that term. As I mentioned before the flamingos and cranes already have jumping animations where they spread their wings so not too far off an idea

Exactly, which is my main arguments why atleast birds of preys should work as habitat animals. Cause they really do not fly alot in zoos unless in free flying shows which could easily be scripted with a key item as the focal point to get some of that juicy free flying greatness into the game.

 

[Captain Callum]

and... anyone doubting my claim of flying animations ingame here you go: