Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

[Mole HD]

I used to think the same. I dont have kids and end up with enough free time on my hands so "time or money" scenarios are not really a hard decision. But I ve been thinking about and going through this for years by now and this scenario is always only the first step on a deteriorating path. You start out with an environment where you replace grind with money which is okay in my book. And soon after that, when the community has settled and got used to the recipee changes are introduced slightly shifting the formula. It can be all kinds of things. New achievements for clothes or mounts introduced, not necessary but impossible to achieve without ingame store purchases. Ingame transactions starting to affect gameplay rather then being vanity items only. Curtains up for the XP booster potion or some other stat altering thing. At the same time resource gain through playing is slightly tweaked to extend the grind bit by bit requiring more and more of your time to achieve the same result. The community which accepts this only becomes another pressure point servicing the company.

Picture a MMO that allows you to raid even as a F2P player but the guild requirements are so ridiculous that you are forced to spend real money in order to keep up. You dont have to of course but if you dont you wont raid...its that simple. We are not talking about any kind of high-end or elite guild either. Average requirements usually shift to the extreme preventing new or undergeared players (the ones who HAVE to raid to get better stuff....) from participating in raids.

Many games have become true cess pools of P2W even tho they started out as "it wont be a problem guys".

I am not as relaxed or accepting to P2W as you are. Because at its core I am being punished for not spending real life money, its not a choice I have. I dont have the same options or paths open if I simply play for free. Playing for free also means playing at a disadvantage, this isnt even arguable. People who are willing to pay more money also provide the same time you do....its not a counter. They simply get more in an environment where you and they are directly pitted against each other in a competing manner. Chris Roberts theorizing of "whats winning anyway?" is laughable and might work on the naive and inexperienced and I was one of those. Have seen enough tho.

Star Citizen doesnt even start out on equal footing. Without a PvP switch you ll start out on day 1 same as everybody else only that you are flying a starter ship while you look down the guns of an Idriss frigate 5 minutes after the servers go up. Trying to mine? Too bad that you only have a slow potato and all the good spots are already taken and defended by multicrew ships. In Star Citizen you are left to pick up the scraps when you are a "normal" guy while the people who upped up the additional mosh are going to use YOU as "gameplay assets". Yeah, I would mind very much....

We're still talking about a perceived reality here...imagining worst case scenarios given that Star Citizen should ever be released. The problem is that there are so many long term players of other games dabbling in Star Citizen imagining it'll be like their favourite game or MMO...Eve, WoW, WoT...Elite and they add a dramatic flare and pin it to Star Citizen...which doesn't exist in any form.

If my $ spent gave me any advantage at all in the current tech demo...it's that I can look good mining instead of delivering boxes to make more in game credits to be wiped every quarter.

 

[Fishy]

There are some that accept that it's Pay2Win and don't mind, which is fair imo.

Yup. I love(d) Planetside 2, and it definitely had a pay2win angle, since you could pay to unlock new guns (and cosmetics too, but that's irrelevant to the current point). But that's how they funded the game, and since at the end of the day the free guns were as good as the paid ones and it didn't require much effort to unlock whichever one took your fancy for free, I accepted the compromise happily.

 

[Mole HD]

Ach, that’s a bit different if they’d already decided to buy more.




Yeah it’s interesting seeing guys saying they haven’t seen their earnings go up much post-rental, purely due to the cost. So they don’t seem to be acting as stepping stones. (And the firewalling off of upgraded kit, like the mining heads etc, only seems to underline that)




But even if a ‘final launch wipe’ arrives, people won’t be ‘wiped back to the stone age’ equally. Those with bought ships & creds will start with those, and their increased earning / mission completion potential. And those crazies who’ve been stockpiling creds, especially now there’s no upper cap, will be uncatchable by any crazies that follow in those footsteps. (Let alone those guys who grind instead of buy creds...)

Kingdoms have definitely been built in advance of launch, significant advantages bought.

I edited the Stone age bit out...since a proof read showed it made little sense

 

[MTBFritz]

We're still talking about a perceived reality here...imagining worst case scenarios given that Star Citizen should ever be released. The problem is that there are so many long term players of other games dabbling in Star Citizen imagining it'll be like their favourite game or MMO...Eve, WoW, WoT...Elite and they add a dramatic flare and pin it to Star Citizen...which doesn't exist in any form.

If my $ spent gave me any advantage at all in the current tech demo...it's that I can look good mining instead of delivering boxes to make more in game credits to be wiped every quarter.

Yes we do. I simply dont see the harm in assuming the worst outcome and be proven wrong rather then the other way around where I grant benefit of the doubt only to be taken on a ride and being taken advantage of. Of course we are going to sit tight and see how it ends up but if we talk then I dont see how a voice of warning or assuming the worst is equal to hating. You didnt say that of course, its just the regular "spiel" when you bicker with somebody from the opposite camp. And there are simply too many real life examples in history to disregard suspicion and worst-case scenarios as "tinfoil" theories.

"long term" is a critical key as well. World of Warcraft introduced an ingame store and many people were jumping the fence predicting worst case scenarios and the fall of the game. Blizzard stayed true to its word for offering vanity/cosmetic items only (....at first). Take a look at the store today and you see various P2W services being charged for premium money. Instant level cap, mounts at lv 1, full set of epic gear and so on. Its a far cry from being "cosmetic" only. And the long term player doesnt care because the leveling spriale isnt important anymore. Worse....if you decide to actually LEVEL UP a new character you are immediately branded as a "pleb" used as a derogatory label. With people who have a maxed out account of 30 max lv characters having a boosting service or not isnt actually something to worry about. Its not the same for somebody new joining tho. Understandings and expectations will be worlds apart and the people who bow to the P2W and consider it "unimportant" simply dont realize how bad it has become because most of the things touch areas which are of no concern to them anymore.

It doesnt need to be a MMO either. Ubisoft is offering XP boosts for its Assassins Creed: Odyssey title. A single player game. Luxus or voluntary? Sure, if they wouldnt have increased the XP required for leveling at the same time to make their new services more attractive. I occasionally reset my games and start over from scratch. Odyssey specifically is a far cry from its release state and you easily need double or even triple the time you used to require for maxing out.

Because the 60 dollars full price somehow isnt enough, isnt enough to allow you to enjoy the game to its fullest.

I m really sore about the various predatory marketing strategies utilized by the big players in the industry. Because I lived through the changes and come from a past where all of these extortion tactics didnt exist. I know you did too as you are even older then I am but somehow I resist while you learned to "accept" it. I m probably more stubborn then you are Watching players being treated like cash cows just chaps my hide. And CIG represents the worst of the worst for me. They have truly comitted to the money god without regards for the people or what they are supposed to do. I will continue to cry foul and blame them of greed. They can at any time prove me wrong and if they do, it ll be an actual win for the world at large but with what I was able to observe so far I dont see that happening.

 

[Viajero]

We're still talking about a perceived reality here...imagining worst case scenarios given that Star Citizen should ever be released. The problem is that there are so many long term players of other games dabbling in Star Citizen imagining it'll be like their favourite game or MMO...Eve, WoW, WoT...Elite and they add a dramatic flare and pin it to Star Citizen...which doesn't exist in any form.

If my $ spent gave me any advantage at all in the current tech demo...it's that I can look good mining instead of delivering boxes to make more in game credits to be wiped every quarter.

I don’t think the issue is related only to hypotheticals about eventual release. I suspect the p2w psychology is as strong now even with wipes. CIG has designed the process to wildly incentivize purchase behaviour under a competitive environment. From the moment there is a chance for a casual pvp encounter anywhere or for the more efficient progress ship compared to other players between resets you already have all the “win” definition you need to encourage the consumer to upgrade with real money. Wipes do not really dampen the p2w system and psychology at work here, except on paper.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I read the initial topic on the upgrade thing...and sadly found I also figured into the demographic. Not so much suggesting base package backers should upgrade as a rule, but I've often given out upgrade advice in game chat to those who have asked on what ship to upgrade to from their starter Mustang or Aurora.

The ship rentals were a good idea but ended up way too expensive and massively bugged. Buying ships in game has become almost an impossible dream due to the continuing cycle of database wipes despite noises from Ci¬G to the contrary...then we have the zero aUEC starting fund drama and the decision to make rentable ships non upgradeable to add to that, the non upgradeable path makes a rental Prospector a mere one step up from being useless since the addition of new mining heads and the introduction of larger, more difficult to crack rocks. I can see where Ci¬G intended that to go in one sense in encouraging a few players to team up in individual ships to achieve a goal...but like most things, it's half-arsed in it's implementation and approach.

As for the pay to win harping, I can agree with both sides of this pointless argument since it's simply a matter of personal perspective. On the one side, buying in with more $ will give you a perceived step up in earning potential which ever path you decide to go be it mining combat or trade...but only in reality when the PU is finally released as Star Citizen (the game). As is and for the foreseeable future...everyone will be wiped back to their starter packages should that eventuality ever happen in our lifetimes irrelevant of ships bought or credits and entire empires created or earned...that release state is highly doubtful in reality and the wipes will continue unabated.

The earning potential over those with a base package if you buy bespoke mining or cargo ships is there in the current PU of course... but again...due to persistent current and future database wipes it's no real advantage one way or t'other. I lose millions of aUEC every wipe and by all accounts, I'll continue to do so. What advantage over Joe Schmoe in his starter pack Mustang did I gain except for spending more real cash to fly ships I particularly like or see a potential in-game use for?

....Not a lot in reality...but I'm sure the argument will continue none the less, it's fashionable if nothing else

To answer your hypothetical question, basically you have paid to win in the form of pay to progress. You basically will start SC 1.0 by skipping over the early part of the game.

Now, you might be fine with that, but many people don't want that ability in an online game, especially one where PvP can occur. If everyone starts the game at the same level, it feels fair.

CR also said no P2W.... but there again, he also said a lot of other things

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

To answer your hypothetical question, basically you have paid to win in the form of pay to progress. You basically will start SC 1.0 by skipping over the early part of the game.

Now, you might be fine with that, but many people don't want that ability in an online game, especially one where PvP can occur. If everyone starts the game at the same level, it feels fair.

CR also said no P2W.... but there again, he also said a lot of other things

This is all true.

lets not forget ED, despite it being on a different level ALSO offered similar (like i said way less egregious but still a starting headstart for sure. my starting package allows me to start with a modestly decked out cobra III..... that seems laughable in the game as it is now, but (because i ignored the legup) it was over 100 hrs before i was at the level in the game that i could have started it at.

then there was the alpha and beta insurance perks (and i do benefit from that)

I stand by the fact that that was the best 100 hrs i had in the game, so for me had i used it it would certainly have been Pay 2 lose for me.
however i am biased because i never wanted even a sniff of PvP in ED so i had nothing to win against. (back then there was not even the issue of competing in CGs or PP)

Perhaps i am deluding myself but i am hoping the starting game in SC with limited cash and gear is just as much fun speccing out my toys as it was in ED.

 

[VR Golgot]

We're still talking about a perceived reality here...imagining worst case scenarios given that Star Citizen should ever be released. The problem is that there are so many long term players of other games dabbling in Star Citizen imagining it'll be like their favourite game or MMO...Eve, WoW, WoT...Elite and they add a dramatic flare and pin it to Star Citizen...which doesn't exist in any form.

If my $ spent gave me any advantage at all in the current tech demo...it's that I can look good mining instead of delivering boxes to make more in game credits to be wiped every quarter.

I dunno, I think it can be argued that both the current PU, and the plans for release, fit pretty snuggly into the P2W fold. (Call it 'pay 2 have more fun' / 'pay for advantage', whatever you like )

Current PU: Ship & cred purchases give advantage after each wipe. Stock rentals & ship purchases are set behind high grind walls, making them hard to access and leverage before the next wipe. Starter accounts now start off with no creds to their name. Instability robs many a credit, and this hits those with reduced earning capacity more, as they can't bounce back as quickly.

Future Plans: Credits to be sold, with no overall cap, but a daily cap in place. (Which can be avoided to an extent via multiple accounts, in theory). Any credits or ships accrued pre-launch to be immediately viable in game.

There are many variables, it's true, regarding launch. (Will they stop selling ships, as they say, or will they continue in some capacity? Will they have a stellar launch and shift their income stream to new user influx, or will they soft launch / launch poorly, and remain tied to whales as their primary income).

I think, at minimum, we can say that their plans for launch still have some key P2W aspects. (And that there's certainly a possibility that whales will remain the main source of fuel, with all that implies for gameplay design etc...)

---

Regarding you just looking good in your mining rig...

I suspect you're thinking because you favour the non-P2P stuff that it's all 'not hurting anyone guvnor'. But we all know even miners like a scrap occasionally . And rich ones aren't turning up in any old boat... Plus that Caterpillar of yours can sure haul, and there's always the consideration of dominating trade lanes in a game which has 'tier 0' commodity scarcity as is, and hopes to have a more dynamic version of the same for launch etc.

Just stick to digging that gold dust and you're probably right though, you'd be more in 'pay to have fun territory' than 'P2W'.

The guys doing all that other stuff though...

 

[Cotic]

Now, you might be fine with that, but many people don't want that ability in an online game, especially one where PvP can occur. If everyone starts the game at the same level, it feels fair.

This is a very good point. IMO the best time for an MMO is when it launches because it is so much more dynamic, especially in PVP games with territorial control aspects.
Imagine, orgs trying to build up their playerbase and fleets from Mustangs/Auroras to Hornets so that they can control jump points, trade routes, prime land locations, mining areas etc. There would be this growth to the game as all these people go through a similar process, instead they have completely nullified that organicness, you have orgs with hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on ships, players with tens of thousands spent, ships to cover every eventuality before the game even begins.

 

[Mole HD]

I dunno, I think it can be argued that both the current PU, and the plans for release, fit pretty snuggly into the P2W fold. (Call it 'pay 2 have more fun' / 'pay for advantage', whatever you like )

Current PU: Ship & cred purchases give advantage after each wipe. Stock rentals & ship purchases are set behind high grind walls, making them hard to access and leverage before the next wipe. Starter accounts now start off with no creds to their name. Instability robs many a credit, and this hits those with reduced earning capacity more, as they can't bounce back as quickly.

Future Plans: Credits to be sold, with no overall cap, but a daily cap in place. (Which can be avoided to an extent via multiple accounts, in theory). Any credits or ships accrued pre-launch to be immediately viable in game.

There are many variables, it's true, regarding launch. (Will they stop selling ships, as they say, or will they continue in some capacity? Will they have a stellar launch and shift their income stream to new user influx, or will they soft launch / launch poorly, and remain tied to whales as their primary income).

I think, at minimum, we can say that their plans for launch still have some key P2W aspects. (And that there's certainly a possibility that whales will remain the main source of fuel, with all that implies for gameplay design etc...)

---

Regarding you just looking good in your mining rig...

I suspect you're thinking because you favour the non-P2P stuff that it's all 'not hurting anyone guvnor'. But we all know even miners like a scrap occasionally . And rich ones aren't turning up in any old boat... Plus that Caterpillar of yours can sure haul, and there's always the consideration of dominating trade lanes in a game which has 'tier 0' commodity scarcity as is, and hopes to have a more dynamic version of the same for launch etc.

Just stick to digging that gold dust and you're probably right though, you'd be more in 'pay to have fun territory' than 'P2W'.

The guys doing all that other stuff though...

I fully agree with all the P2W suggestions...like I said, I agree with both camps to a greater or lesser degree. I'll add once again that I'm a solo player with no org background or aspirations...me in my Caterpillar aren't going to trouble a fleet of them bandied around by mid to higher level orgs in their imaginary version of Star Citizen, it's not like they can blockade anywhere or control an area...nor will they be able to in any perceivable future iteration of SC, that's just Eve players imagining and hoping it'll be like that. Like most folks banging around in the PU trying to deal with the plethora of game breaking bugs, we're mostly solo players doing our own thing in entirely our own way grinding out a few aUEC for ship upgrades and silly cosmetic armour for our avatars, we occasionally get together in small random groups for something or other but we're not empire building or pretending to be RP space pirates...

The orgs do what they do, mostly replaying some scenario from one of RexZilla's video offerings and desperately wishing for Theatres of War to get released...but like most of the current participants in the PU, the majority of us don't really give a toss about a CoD cloned mini-game or what the orgs are dreaming about or what they're doing, we just fly pixel spaceships, mostly on our own.

In total, I've been attacked randomly by other players in ships twice in 2 years...not counting the occasional stowaway I've had to kill or pad rammers. The last time was the other night when some idiots in stock Arrows decided that attempting a gank on my lowly prospector was a good way to get some lulz. It didn't work out quite like that since they didn't count on my dinky little Prospector having upgraded shields, coolers and weapons, plus being flown by somebody who has been playing long enough to have developed some basic flying skills outside of the silly boy FPS circle strafing... so the lulz were on me

For me, the sooner that ridiculous CoD clone appears the better, it'll thin the Fortnite and Eve online idiots out from the PU a bit if nothing else.

 

[ECity]

FYI, this Friday's Star Citizen Live is about Theaters of War.

SCL Questions Needed: Theaters of War CitizenCon Followup - Star Citizen Spectrum

This Friday at 12pm Pacific, 8pm UTC we'll have Technical Director Sean Tracy on the show LIVE from our Los Angeles Studio to answer questions following up on his Theaters of War presentation from...

robertsspaceindustries.com

 

[Mole HD]

To answer your hypothetical question, basically you have paid to win in the form of pay to progress. You basically will start SC 1.0 by skipping over the early part of the game.

Now, you might be fine with that, but many people don't want that ability in an online game, especially one where PvP can occur. If everyone starts the game at the same level, it feels fair.

CR also said no P2W.... but there again, he also said a lot of other things

I don't see it as skipping anything...maybe that's the issue. I simply imagined what I'd like to be doing in the case of a more permanent version of the PU, realised there were 2 ways in which I could start doing it...one, to buy the appropriate ships so I could start off doing what I like doing... or two, to start behind a paywall and grind it out. I'm not combat oriented in the slightest, so I bought basic industrial ships to enable me as a player...considering we're now a few years on since I first started...the ability to do what I want. I didn't buy in with my current fleet, I started in both accounts with a $100 Cutlass black game package, the rest have been added over time...a time that I would have added the other ships via gameplay had the game been released, persistent and playable.

It's not.

Like Mike said, I started Elite during the Xbox GPP with 10,000 credits and a Cobra Mk3...I didn't see that as a pay to win advantage over someone who bought Elite later and got 1,000 credits and a sidewinder.

 

[Viajero]

FYI, this Friday's Star Citizen Live is about Theaters of War.

SCL Questions Needed: Theaters of War CitizenCon Followup - Star Citizen Spectrum

This Friday at 12pm Pacific, 8pm UTC we'll have Technical Director Sean Tracy on the show LIVE from our Los Angeles Studio to answer questions following up on his Theaters of War presentation from...

robertsspaceindustries.com

I like this exchange regarding a question presumably about when will TOW be ready:

CIG staff: Question removed for Rule #8: No "when" questions. All information we have about the intended release of any feature is represented on the Public Roadmap.

Patron: Its literally not on the roadmap.

 

[StuartGT]

FYI, this Friday's Star Citizen Live is about Theaters of War.

SCL Questions Needed: Theaters of War CitizenCon Followup - Star Citizen Spectrum

This Friday at 12pm Pacific, 8pm UTC we'll have Technical Director Sean Tracy on the show LIVE from our Los Angeles Studio to answer questions following up on his Theaters of War presentation from...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Whoa, many of those upvoted questions aren't kind

 

[ECity]

Oh I think it's obvious why this week's Star Citizen Live is about a brand new game mode and any other questions are off topic.

 

[Factabulous]

That would be quite sad if they're delaying SC and SQ42 for TOW - at least people had bought in for the first 2. I wonder if this means they need a 3rd GLA from Crytek?

 

[Surefoot]

Like Mike said, I started Elite during the Xbox GPP with 10,000 credits and a Cobra Mk3...I didn't see that as a pay to win advantage over someone who bought Elite later and got 1,000 credits and a sidewinder.

Exactly.. While SC is definitely p2w at start (and not by a small margin..) the database wipes actually make it worse, but we can argue there is no game at the moment so there's nothing to "win".
In the hypothesis they'll stop doing regular wipes, this starter "bonus" will gradually fade over time as people will farm money, ships and equipment and will progressively settle in their own endgame. For example, mine in Elite is my fully customized Imperial Clipper, and yes i've been through all 3 big ones, but they are too clunky to be truly enjoyable... In Jumpgate i was perfectly happy with a top-of-the-line fighter, escorting big cargo ships and going to fight those aliens..
Again hypothesis and dream-crafting predictions: endgame in SC might not be an Idris or Javelin or whatever big monster that needs a full complement of deck cleaning crews to function properly. The "win" might reside in how many friends you have or how big your organization is, to bring weight and firepower to situations you might encounter.
That is, if everyone stop treating SC as a series of one-on-one space fights and see a bit further (cough arcade flight model holds that back cough)...

That would be quite sad if they're delaying SC and SQ42 for TOW - at least people had bought in for the first 2. I wonder if this means they need a 3rd GLA from Crytek?

How much do you want to bet that

• they stopped all development on SC and SQ42 as we've seen for this new "sub game"
• Calder's investment is tied to the sales of that "sub game" and that will be the MVP

(edit) from the TOW thread:

Does this mean that shield holes, the weak flight model, and other major gameplay problems which currently plague SC are going to be addressed so this mode is playable?

oof
I logged in just to upvote that one

 

[Mole HD]

Exactly.. While SC is definitely p2w at start (and not by a small margin..) the database wipes actually make it worse, but we can argue there is no game at the moment so there's nothing to "win".
In the hypothesis they'll stop doing regular wipes, this starter "bonus" will gradually fade over time as people will farm money, ships and equipment and will progressively settle in their own endgame. For example, mine in Elite is my fully customized Imperial Clipper, and yes i've been through all 3 big ones, but they are too clunky to be truly enjoyable... In Jumpgate i was perfectly happy with a top-of-the-line fighter, escorting big cargo ships and going to fight those aliens..
Again hypothesis and dream-crafting predictions: endgame in SC might not be an Idris or Javelin or whatever big monster that needs a full complement of deck cleaning crews to function properly. The "win" might reside in how many friends you have or how big your organization is, to bring weight and firepower to situations you might encounter.
That is, if everyone stop treating SC as a series of one-on-one space fights and see a bit further (cough arcade flight model holds that back cough)...


How much do you want to bet that

• they stopped all development on SC and SQ42 as we've seen for this new "sub game"
• Calder's investment is tied to the sales of that "sub game" and that will be the MVP

In Jumpgate I was flying a cargo tow mining rocks for my clan, the Red Dwarfers...Quantar guys and gals were miners, it's what we did.

As for the ToW rubbish...and you'll find that's a common sentiment amongst most folks who see the PU being starved of development resources owing to this nonsense (Sqn42 development priority is a blatant lie)...nobody is really interested in a posh version of the utterly ridiculous Star Marine, we've supposedly got an entire PU for that.

 

[Surefoot]

In Jumpgate I was flying a cargo tow mining rocks for my clan, the Red Dwarfers...Quantar guys and gals were miners, it's what we did.

I see that you proudly transferred that Quantar culture over to SC (i was an Octavius mercenary haha)

 

[Mole HD]

I see that you proudly transferred that Quantar culture over to SC (i was an Octavius mercenary haha)

Followed it on through Elite as well...got my trade Elite both on Xbox and PC through mining rocks...and long before void opals or posh mining