Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Some interesting comments from DB during a recent interview with RPS that are relevant for SC.

Below are not direct quotes but summaries by Golgot

Publishing marketing 'interface' contacts don't always understand the 'ugly' side of design. The 'programmer art'. IE the testing period where it doesn't matter what it looks like. Important part of creative process being able to break things and remake them etc. (Whereas in earlier days milestones brought polishing phases at each stage, which = silly. Make-work is soul destroying for the animators and artists. There's always change that needs rework, so systematically doing it = disrespecting them).

This is relevant because we see how CIG have to constantly put out shiny content for backers to see something pretty, which is inefficient and also ties in with what we have heard from ex-employees who complained about having to redo things multiple times.

There has to be someone saying: 'We have to ship it now'. Because otherwise you tinker forever. Can be fatal.

This one needs no real explanation. At CIG there is nobody saying ship it now.

Very hard to do with an off-the-shelf engine. 64 bit needed for draw distances etc. Kickstarter important because gave them the time (?) to test all that out.

Ties in with the question of whether CryEngine was the right engine for the job. CIG have had to put a lot of effort into making it work for what they need, and its still a long way from being in a good state, especially on the networking/server side. If we look back at the 2012-2014 era, backers strongly claimed that using an off-the-shelf engine was the better choice so CIG didn't have to build an engine from scratch, but looking at it, it might have actually taken them less time to build one from scratch rather than force CryEngine into doing what they want.
 
Some interesting comments from DB during a recent interview with RPS that are relevant for SC.

Below are not direct quotes but summaries by Golgot



This is relevant because we see how CIG have to constantly put out shiny content for backers to see something pretty, which is inefficient and also ties in with what we have heard from ex-employees who complained about having to redo things multiple times.



This one needs no real explanation. At CIG there is nobody saying ship it now.



Ties in with the question of whether CryEngine was the right engine for the job. CIG have had to put a lot of effort into making it work for what they need, and its still a long way from being in a good state, especially on the networking/server side. If we look back at the 2012-2014 era, backers strongly claimed that using an off-the-shelf engine was the better choice so CIG didn't have to build an engine from scratch, but looking at it, it might have actually taken them less time to build one from scratch rather than force CryEngine into doing what they want.


Those bits made me think of CIG too ;)
 
Some interesting comments from DB during a recent interview with RPS that are relevant for SC.

Below are not direct quotes but summaries by Golgot



This is relevant because we see how CIG have to constantly put out shiny content for backers to see something pretty, which is inefficient and also ties in with what we have heard from ex-employees who complained about having to redo things multiple times.



This one needs no real explanation. At CIG there is nobody saying ship it now.



Ties in with the question of whether CryEngine was the right engine for the job. CIG have had to put a lot of effort into making it work for what they need, and its still a long way from being in a good state, especially on the networking/server side. If we look back at the 2012-2014 era, backers strongly claimed that using an off-the-shelf engine was the better choice so CIG didn't have to build an engine from scratch, but looking at it, it might have actually taken them less time to build one from scratch rather than force CryEngine into doing what they want.

The moment they drifted away from the original scope the engine was wrong.
IMO he (CR) should have released a game with less goals, made it as a SP Sq42 and used another engine better designed for MP.

they simply didn’t scope out the project correct and because of that they are suffering from horrible game design, choice of engine and a leaking war chest.
 
it might have actually taken them less time to build one from scratch rather than force CryEngine into doing what they want.

to build a game engine from scratch you have to know damn well what you are doing, you need a lot of state of the art programmers, not only time.
CIG can't create an engine form scratch, no matter the time, simply because they don't have the know how needed, despite the magic germans.
 
SC just looks kinda dull. Detailed, yes, but dull. I'm getting flashbacks to the overly serious beige FPS games from mid-00s until recently where some of that stylised look has crept back in.

Here comes the "potential" thing and what it does.

I remember CIG releasing the PU to backers in 2014? The hangar before that was kinda meh, it looked nice but it didnt really grab my attention. But the PU....wow....that was something different. 6 years later Olisar is still pretty much the same, some details changed but its the same old wake up in bed - walk/run around - order your ship - walk up to your ship and enter - fly off

Its a very simple gameloop but it was amazing at the time and it showed very clearly what Star Citizen could become aka potential. I think I remember Yamiks stating something similar the very first time he tried out Star Citizen in 2015. He was blown away by the sheer potential and the immersion factor.

But what can I say? Waking up in bed, running around and flying your ship gets boring quickly. Its simply not enough. After a while you dont have the sudden rush of excitement anymore when you run around or walk up to your ship. Its just what you have to do in order to get where you want to be. Not a problem you might think because its an alpha so they are going to add new stuff. And people praised CIG on their first take and waited eagerly for whats coming next.

Ships look nice but its a skin for the most part because as extensive testing discovered there is very little simulation going on in Star Citizen which is supposed to be a space sim. So new ships are really worthless if they dont add new gameplay elements to the project. Most dont. They look different and all of them have extensive lore but very little of the capabilities actually manage to reach the alpha.

In the following years CIG mostly changed details and minutia. Changing pixel color and creating ships with even higher pixel count. The UI changed and maybe it was needed but why did it take years?

Planets look nice but again....its a skin for the most part. I seriously doubt SC planets are procedurally generated and CIGs own guarded statement in this matter only raises suspicion as to how much "generation" is actually involved. The times required to deliver planets and moons points to heavy handcrafting and again....while the surfaces look nice there really isnt much to it. SC planets level of detail doesnt make the underlying technology "superior" or even "groundbreaking" because the level of detail comes at a cost so its a trade-off. I have no doubt that CIG wanted to have EDs procedural capabilities combined with superior visual presentation but they simply dont have it. In terms of procedurally generation capabilities ED still is unmatched...what exactly SC is is unclear at the moment.

I try to picture myself as a "tester" and yeah...walking on a planets surface is nice...the first couple of times but with nothing to do but wait for the next handcrafted location every 3 or 4 months......WHY would I keep logging in? Whats there to "test"? Whats there to experience beyond the same thing that I already experienced before?

I get that most "veterans" have developed a kind of routine which allows them to enjoy the PU and what SC provides but if you would be a real tester, log in when something new arrives, test it, turn in your reports then wait for the next patch to test new stuff.....you would probably delete SC from your harddrive because of the slow pace.

From the outside CIG and Star Citizen look like a busy factory. Thick black smoke is coming out of its chimneys, its glowing with lights at night and the place looks immensly busy with hundreds of people milling around. The numbers we get from CIG verify this. Lots of resources going in. Heavy focus and effort by its workforce. Why are the actual results so disappointing and take months then? I get that some things take time but nothing SC does is groundbreaking or designed from scratch. In regards to the FPS animations they were able to take cryengines out-of-the-box capabilities and truth be told.....in 2020 it even looks the same as back in 2014 animation wise. All the footage we got from locomotion 2.0 never made it in. CIG simply created a nice looking skin on top of the basic avatar....I m not sure they need praise for that because its visual fluff. Where is the progress in animation, interaction, damage model or simulated physics?

Non-existing.

No doubt CIG changed the basic cryengine heavily but its not really appearant because next to zero value tickles down to the consumer. Instead things run worse, slower and the more they try to add the more they break. So you could call the engine "messed up" all the same because the results we can observe actually confirm that assessment.

People point to the row of ships available and I dismiss that as an argument for quality because again....most ships are just nice looking skins with hacked stats. The performance numbers are not simulated in any way. All you need to do is fly one or watch a ship flying to understand that. They vary in weapon and module hardpoints but thats just minutia, its not an explanation for why theres months in between each ship or indicates heavy effort going into the design of one. Except for mining the gameplay loops connected to many ships are still missing. Even the "Drop ship" doesnt have any specialized feature tied to it that would justify its existence or price tag. All it does is open its ramp and you hop out and you have more chair spots.....wow....I m blown away. After watching CIG for years now I see them trying to think of a different looking ship to sell but thats all it really is.....different looking. So just another skin. Multicrew isnt really in. Interior damage model isnt in. Refueling, docking, repair, medical gameplay. If the physics grid and its limited capabilies wouldnt prevent them from creating bigger ships (obvious reason) there really is nothing to designing and building a capital class ship. But as the bigger ships represent mini-levels inside levels and the engine very clearly has problems handling that it seems very obvious why the big ships, sold for thousands of dollars APIECE are still missing. Even the scripted footage we got was barely able to run.

What exactly was CIG doing all those years? Painting nice pictures?

Because it looks like it to me. There is close to no actual work going on in this project. We wait 3 or 4 months and get detail changes. Most highly anticipated things turn out subpar or straight out disappointing, are mostly broken on arrival or break the game or are dropped or pushed back. There is so much to look forward to in Star Citizen, hundreds or things people wait for. But all of them are always in the future, always require more patience and lots and lots of money. The battle royale mode now was unneeded, unwanted and not communicated to the community (transperancy, the biggest joke about Star Citizen) but no doubt this sidetrack project will "help" people to wait another year or more because you can bet your next paycheck it wont be ready in 2020. As a backer waiting for the game you always only look to the future, waiting for your wishes to become reality. All you need to do is look over the past years you already waited and evaluate what you got for the time and money spent and I dont mean "your" money specifically but all the hundreds of millions of dollars which were pumped into this project according to CIG. With the kind of results CIG has I really wouldnt call for attention pointing to all the money you received or trumpet out how much money you are getting each month....it makes this whole thing look even more like a scam,

I m not even invested and I m outraged about all this. I look up to people who have given up or manage to stay calm in the face of all those lies, those false claims and the constant underdelivering. And I fully understand anybody who vents at CIGs incompetence and the scammy nature of the project that it has turned into. Analyzing the past years its pretty clear to me that CIG has to know it cannot do this. They got all the information, they have actual experts sitting on it so there is no way they are unaware of the dillemma they are in. Maybe the average working drone doesnt have the whole picture and have doubts but trusts in the other teams or leadership to make it happen. But Chris Roberts cannot NOT know. Its not a question of time when you lack the engine, the coding or the know-how to deliver what you sold/promised. Simply waiting for technology to catch up to your promises isnt work done. Thats hoping on a lucky break. I am not surprised the backers have no idea how CIG is going to make this a reality and thus take it on faith. If CIG would actually have any idea how to solve the problems and deliver the game they promised why are they not sharing that information? Why dont we see actual results coming out of this company nonstop? Why is it next to impossible to get a clearcut answer from CIG on anything? Whenever I listen to a dev or the head honcho himself I feel confused and like the reply didnt even touch my question at all.

I can promise a gorgeous fireplace then throw some sticks on the ground and wait until somebody else invents the lighter. Thats a scam right there and I refuse to give CIG any kind of praise for things that are weak shadows of what they actually announced in the past or simple copy jobs from existing games. This goes for ingame solutions as well as for designs. When it comes to creativity or groundbreaking stuff.....CIG never really had a foot in the door.

Star Citizens ONE SHINING MOMENT was back in 2014 when the PU first became available to the public. Everything after that was smoke and mirrors and hasnt advanced the game itself.

Thats the reason why I call it a scam today and maybe this wall of text wasnt needed but I felt like sharing so...../flip
 
Its a very simple gameloop but it was amazing at the time and it showed very clearly what Star Citizen could become aka potential. I think I remember Yamiks stating something similar the very first time he tried out Star Citizen in 2015. He was blown away by the sheer potential and the immersion factor.

You see, i never found that to be particularly impressive. Like back in 2012 when CIG did the helmet flip and launch video which sent backers whooping, i was like "Erm, why is everyone getting so excited?"

Waking up in bed, walking around, entering a vehicle, its nothing new now and it wasn't nothing new back then.

The potential only existed as things beyond what was being shown, and therefore nothing showing CIG could actually deliver on any of it. I judged the "potential" based on what CIG could actually do, not say what they wanted to do.

If I was like SC backers, i'd be sat here posting on the forums about how awesome the potential of ED is and i look forward to the day we can go big game hunting on planets, just like Braben talked about in 2013-ish.

Sorry, no, i'm not getting sucked into any game based on what one day might be. Only based on what I'm certain the devs can and will deliver on, and that usually means what they have already delivered.

I don't give money for dreams, i give money for results.
 
Publishing marketing 'interface' contacts don't always understand the 'ugly' side of design. The 'programmer art'. IE the testing period where it doesn't matter what it looks like. Important part of creative process being able to break things and remake them etc. (Whereas in earlier days milestones brought polishing phases at each stage, which = silly. Make-work is soul destroying for the animators and artists. There's always change that needs rework, so systematically doing it = disrespecting them).
This is relevant because we see how CIG have to constantly put out shiny content for backers to see something pretty, which is inefficient and also ties in with what we have heard from ex-employees who complained about having to redo things multiple times.
Another proof we can't deny CIG treat us as a they would have treated a publisher. Fluff over substance to keep money flowing. Lies and no accountablilty is the other facet of being treated like a publisher the Chris's way.
 
You see, i never found that to be particularly impressive. Like back in 2012 when CIG did the helmet flip and launch video which sent backers whooping, i was like "Erm, why is everyone getting so excited?"

Waking up in bed, walking around, entering a vehicle, its nothing new now and it wasn't nothing new back then.
Me neither, And I almost immediatly felt the damage risk to fun and gameplay (as I intend it) from so much degree of fidelicious immershun nitwit details. And every decisions turn to be exactly like that. Every nuts and bolts of SC is geared like if the sums of its tiniest details will make a better outcome by itself than designing the overarching game first. Same for the technical foundations.

CIG is the complete opposite of the best development studio to date for me currently: Arkane. Arkane who manages to deliver both robust, clever, fun, genuine game and level designs and immersive, top notch, with real proper identity aesthetic visuals.
 
Last edited:
Doesn't really matter if you're a veteran or not...it's broken for everybody :)
true, however, as a noob, I don't know if it me, the pc or the game causing it. The more I play and get use to the shenanigans, the more I realize in part it's me and in part the game. As a noob, I can't seem to play any where near the time that I see video poster's playing. I realize it's me but it took 14 hours of reloading before I managed to be able to find the area to call my craft, locate the hanger, start it, get permission, take off with out thrashing around in the hanger like a lone bean in a can. Ascend a few hundred meter's, ask permission to land, find the dam hanger, enter the hanger, and actually touch down. Though it took numerous attempts, I finally did it successfully, but I know I scratched the paint. My son 35 years my junior was able to do what took me 14 hours, in 15 minutes. His experience with video games on a pc is considerably better than mine, not to mention his playing video games in general, the use of a controller, etc etc etc. And the game didn't crash once during his first attempt as mine did, numerous times.

Personally I believe SC will eventually become an actual game. Though they refer to it as a pledge, the money invested is still basically a investment in a kick start program. Ironically, there are ED player's that have or had invested considerably more in ED's kick start than I've got in SC which is a total of 170.00 U.S., and unlike myself who actually get a chance to play SC even with the shenanigans, They had to wait years before getting a chance which years later as of to date, still has shenanigans.
 
to build a game engine from scratch you have to know damn well what you are doing, you need a lot of state of the art programmers, not only time.
CIG can't create an engine form scratch, no matter the time, simply because they don't have the know how needed, despite the magic germans.

I'm 50/50 on this, I completely agree with the first part, partly less with the rest: to build a game engine from scratch you have to know damn well what you are doing. 100%.
Following from that, the rest becomes relative, to scope, size, etc. I'll take X4 again as an example, if anything because it's the one I have the most direct experience about. It's a recurring question to developers over there too, "why didn't you use something like UE or Unity or $insert_name$, so you could invest your limited resources in actually making the rest of the game".
And from the point of view of a very small developer with limited means, the answer has always been the same: outside of the licensing costs for any commercially distributed product, there is no point in using an off the shelf engine if the time and resources required to bend it to your needs exceed the efforts of making one yourself, tailored around your requirements. So first things first, you need to already know what kind of game you are going to make, how do you plan of developing it, and eventually how do you plan on expanding and supporting it over time. Once you have ticked those boxes, most of the rest comes as part of a programmer's profession. I don't intend to detract from Egosoft's staff expertise in the field, but they surely aren't some superstar coders or "magic germans" by any means, they are "just" programmers as there are many around, with their varying degrees of experience of course. And yet, that handful of guys working from a home office always came up with their proprietary engine, with their last one allowing space legs at a tiny fraction of costs/resource/time of Star Citizen's wrecknought (and I think the same can be applied to Hello Games with their No Man's Sky too).
Definitely rough around the edges, with no fancy "physics" simulation, different gravities, oxygen and life support, planetary surfaces? Sure. No multiplayer requirements? Sure. Far simpler visuals? Sure. More limited in the kind of first person shenanigans it allows? Sure.
Stable and working good for what the games requires, allowing the players to play the game as it was meant to? Sure.

I don't like to cultivate the notion of "incompetent/lazy programmers", be them from CiG, Frontier, Egosoft, wherever, from my outside perspective I don't see it like a field where you are allowed to improvise competence, you are either doing it because you are good at it, or you are doing something else entirely. Botched works come out of messy ideas, bad management and even worse planning, and no amout of state of the art programmers or magic germans will keep the ship afloat if the captain is an iceberg magnet.
 
true, however, as a noob, I don't know if it me, the pc or the game causing it. The more I play and get use to the shenanigans, the more I realize in part it's me and in part the game. As a noob, I can't seem to play any where near the time that I see video poster's playing.
True, we have to get used to a game. Though currently in SC it's more about getting used to circumvent bugs and flaws. And IMHO, as time flies in everything that's being made what's defect and keeps being defect ends becoming trait.

and unlike myself who actually get a chance to play SC even with the shenanigans, They had to wait years before getting a chance which years later as of to date, still has shenanigans.
ED: KS in november 2012, alpha in december 2013, beta in may 2014, release in april 2015 (11 months late from initial estimate)
SC : KS in november 2012, Arena commander in june 2014, PU in december 2015.

ED backers waited at the shortest 13 months before hopping in their sideys, SC backers 20 months before they could enjoy the fidelicious wonkiness of first AC iteration.

Just sayin'...
 
Last edited:
Ironically, there are ED player's that have or had invested considerably more in ED's kick start than I've got in SC which is a total of 170.00 U.S., and unlike myself who actually get a chance to play SC even with the shenanigans, They had to wait years before getting a chance which years later as of to date, still has shenanigans.
ED released years ago. What you've done is given $170, almost the price of three AAA games, to a con man.
 
ED released years ago. What you've done is given $170, almost the price of three AAA games, to a con man.
There are those that invested more in ED than I did in SC, prior to being able to even see let alone try the game. Had it failed, David would have been labeled a con man. It didn't, but still took years before an kick starter could actually play the game in beta let alone gold. OK, SC is taking a bit longer, but comparing the two objectively, SC is considerably much more in depth than ED is, but could be. SC could have release a version just like ED did, then upgrade it every so often just like ED does. SC in it's present form has issues, ED in it's present form has issues. Thus my investment in the future of SC isn't really any different than it would have been had I had the opportunity to invest in ED years ago. Except, during the process, I actually get to play SC to such a degree, that in a sense, I'm getting my money back. There are those still waiting for the arrival of dude which has been reported to happen any time during the last couple of thousand years, and in the mean time, there are those that have pumped gazillion of dollars into his ideology while waiting. In all three cases, there's an element of faith. Because your faith is different than mine, doesn't make yours correct by default.
 
there are ED player's that have or had invested considerably more in ED's kick start than I've got in SC which is a total of 170.00 U.S., and unlike myself who actually get a chance to play SC even with the shenanigans, They had to wait years before getting a chance which years later as of to date, still has shenanigans.
$3000 USD SC, during the years I've probably spend $1000 USD on ED, I received a refund from CIG, got everything back, and some of it was channeled into ED, I'm a lifetime pass owner in ED so I really don't need to spend one cent playing the game from now and until it's no long active.

For me I just had some issues with ED like the absents of an auto pilot, however the game is still a good game, compared to SC it is actually a game not just window dressing.

OK, SC is taking a bit longer, but comparing the two objectively, SC is considerably much more in depth than ED is

You're kidding me right??
Really?

youre-kidding-right-lc6vuw.jpg
 
There are those still waiting for the arrival of dude which has been reported to happen any time during the last couple of thousand years, and in the mean time, there are those that have pumped gazillion of dollars into his ideology while waiting. In all three cases, there's an element of faith. Because your faith is different than mine, doesn't make yours correct by default.
"Not a cult"
 
It's ironic how though I've invested 170.00 into Star Citizen I'm considered nuts by some. But between my purchases of ED on for the PS4, then the Xbox One, then the Steam version for PC and lastly Frontier's version for PC, I've invested not including paint schemes prior to arx's a total of 240.00 For a game which because the owner has a ten year plan of which 5 have come and gone, leaving 5 years more to invest in when new release's I think are called dlc's become available. I'm not considered nuts.

SC owner has a dream and is looking for investors that share it. ED owner has a dream and is looking for investors that share it. I've invested in both their dreams, because I have share them both, thus I have a dream also.

SC isn't officially a game yet, though it could turn out to be nothing more than a pipe dream, I get a chance to experience it until its determined either way. ED though it's officially a game, is in it's 5th year of a ten year production schedule. Thus it could still turn out to be a pipe dream. And just like SC my investment in ED allows me to experience it until it been determined either way.

The debate here is similar to debating if because fruit have their seeds inside vs outside as vegetable's have, is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? I'm done!
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom