Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

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It's ironic how though I've invested 170.00 into Star Citizen I'm considered nuts by some. But between my purchases of ED on for the PS4, then the Xbox One, then the Steam version for PC and lastly Frontier's version for PC, I've invested not including paint schemes prior to arx's a total of 240.00 For a game which because the owner has a ten year plan of which 5 have come and gone, leaving 5 years more to invest in when new release's I think are called dlc's become available. I'm not considered nuts.

SC owner has a dream and is looking for investors that share it. ED owner has a dream and is looking for investors that share it. I've invested in both their dreams, because I have share them both, thus I have a dream also.

SC isn't officially a game yet, though it could turn out to be nothing more than a pipe dream, I get a chance to experience it until its determined either way. ED though it's officially a game, is in it's 5th year of a ten year production schedule. Thus it could still turn out to be a pipe dream. And just like SC my investment in ED allows me to experience it until it been determined either way.

The debate here is similar to debating if because fruit have their seeds inside vs outside as vegetable's have, is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? I'm done!

I don't see any irony in your spending habits, but neither one is an investment. In the case of ED (across multiple platforms), it's a delivered product that you purchased.

SC is a pre-purchase that since the Kickstarter has yet to deliver.

I think one of the major differences between the two is in your comment - ED has a 10-year plan. SC had a plan, if we were to believe the Kickstarter. Now, to both outsiders and those playing along at home, it's turned into a improv show where the roadmap is made up and the deadlines don't really matter - except it's far from comedic.
 
It's ironic how though I've invested 170.00 into Star Citizen I'm considered nuts by some.
The debate here is similar to debating if because fruit have their seeds inside vs outside as vegetable's have, is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? I'm done!
Nothing wrong with your money spent, never was the subject here.
Though your analogy is almost perfect: it's you who's comparing an apple with a jpeg of an orange.
 
They are carefully building the pipelines to develop the tools to design the architecture for the studio in which the orange will be photographed.

They work in close collaboration with teams around the world to grow the orange. Development continues on a cloud solution for image acquisition and digital transform. Onboarding new techniques to maximise the fidelity of image compression, CI-G will aim to deliver never-been-done-before handcrafted artist-driven procedurally generated pixels direct to the diverse, disparate and topology incongruent platform of BDSSE investors. Low-tiers will of course have to upgrade their hardware to at least the recommended specifications, and buy new VDU's with orange pixels.

Genuine Roberts is hard at work inventing the camera.
 
I'm 50/50 on this, I completely agree with the first part, partly less with the rest: to build a game engine from scratch you have to know damn well what you are doing. 100%.
Following from that, the rest becomes relative, to scope, size, etc. I'll take X4 again as an example, if anything because it's the one I have the most direct experience about. It's a recurring question to developers over there too, "why didn't you use something like UE or Unity or $insert_name$, so you could invest your limited resources in actually making the rest of the game".
And from the point of view of a very small developer with limited means, the answer has always been the same: outside of the licensing costs for any commercially distributed product, there is no point in using an off the shelf engine if the time and resources required to bend it to your needs exceed the efforts of making one yourself, tailored around your requirements. So first things first, you need to already know what kind of game you are going to make, how do you plan of developing it, and eventually how do you plan on expanding and supporting it over time. Once you have ticked those boxes, most of the rest comes as part of a programmer's profession. I don't intend to detract from Egosoft's staff expertise in the field, but they surely aren't some superstar coders or "magic germans" by any means, they are "just" programmers as there are many around, with their varying degrees of experience of course. And yet, that handful of guys working from a home office always came up with their proprietary engine, with their last one allowing space legs at a tiny fraction of costs/resource/time of Star Citizen's wrecknought (and I think the same can be applied to Hello Games with their No Man's Sky too).
Definitely rough around the edges, with no fancy "physics" simulation, different gravities, oxygen and life support, planetary surfaces? Sure. No multiplayer requirements? Sure. Far simpler visuals? Sure. More limited in the kind of first person shenanigans it allows? Sure.
Stable and working good for what the games requires, allowing the players to play the game as it was meant to? Sure.

I don't like to cultivate the notion of "incompetent/lazy programmers", be them from CiG, Frontier, Egosoft, wherever, from my outside perspective I don't see it like a field where you are allowed to improvise competence, you are either doing it because you are good at it, or you are doing something else entirely. Botched works come out of messy ideas, bad management and even worse planning, and no amout of state of the art programmers or magic germans will keep the ship afloat if the captain is an iceberg magnet.

Well Egosoft have been building the franchise now for quite some time. Almost 2 decades? No it's solid 2 decades even. They have a pretty good idea what they want to accomplish and that has grown bit by bit every new iteration of the X games. From there they had a pretty good idea what their engine would need to accomplish. It's also been quite the niche franchise for a long while. Last time I visited their forum the German section was still the biggest I believe. Now it's the English one - they have grown over time.

SC tries to do it all in one go. I'm pretty confident that it's quite impossible.
 
Nothing wrong with your money spent, never was the subject here.
Though your analogy is almost perfect: it's you who's comparing an apple with a jpeg of an orange.

I think it’s more like comparing an apple with a seedling of unknown provenance, glued to a dog-eared sketch of what is probably meant to be a really impressive fruit tree (but it’s hard to be sure because it’s badly smudged).
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
It's ironic how though I've invested 170.00 into Star Citizen I'm considered nuts by some. But between my purchases of ED on for the PS4, then the Xbox One, then the Steam version for PC and lastly Frontier's version for PC, I've invested not including paint schemes prior to arx's a total of 240.00 For a game which because the owner has a ten year plan of which 5 have come and gone, leaving 5 years more to invest in when new release's I think are called dlc's become available. I'm not considered nuts.

SC owner has a dream and is looking for investors that share it. ED owner has a dream and is looking for investors that share it. I've invested in both their dreams, because I have share them both, thus I have a dream also.

SC isn't officially a game yet, though it could turn out to be nothing more than a pipe dream, I get a chance to experience it until its determined either way. ED though it's officially a game, is in it's 5th year of a ten year production schedule. Thus it could still turn out to be a pipe dream. And just like SC my investment in ED allows me to experience it until it been determined either way.

The debate here is similar to debating if because fruit have their seeds inside vs outside as vegetable's have, is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? I'm done!

This argument feels like déjà vu, and there is no irony whatsoever I am afraid, the case is very clear cut.

A key difference in terms of how the money is spent is that all those items bought in different platforms are actually released and working products, games and skins and all and where "what you see is what you get for what you pay". The buyer is actually using them all and "amortizing" them all as expected. Whereas SC, SQ42 and all the jpegs sold on the side are still, 8-9 years after, nowhere near finalized products in any sense of the word; a large number of those jpegs are not even in the alpha at all yet, and wont be for many years.

It is one thing to spend money in a number of very real, off the shelf, but similar garden tool sets for both my main residence and my summer cottage that I will be actually using to maintain my garden(s); and another very different to "pledge" money now into a garden tool set someone is still currently designing and claiming they will be the best damned garden tools set ever in 5 years from now. Especially when whatever he has been able to produce so far breaks just by looking at it, and after the 5 years he claims he may need another 5.

There is a very fundamental fallacy and comprehension mistake at play here if we try to seriously compare money spent in non guaranteed, non existent, future products and dreams; with money spent in actually released, reviewed and real products that we can actually use.
 
I don't think that it's the graphics, per se, but I've always been a bit bugged by the look of Star Citizen.

Don't get me wrong, there are some really nice assets in the games, and it's obvious that a lot of time has been put into modelling them.

The problem, IMO, is the overall art direction. Most games have a solid overall feel - you know that you are in their universe, and even if the graphics are not detailed the cohesive feel puts you in there. […] SC just looks kinda dull. Detailed, yes, but dull. I'm getting flashbacks to the overly serious beige FPS games from mid-00s until recently where some of that stylised look has crept back in.
The thing you're experiencing is also the inevitable result of creative bankruptcy. The reason SC doesn't have a “solid overall feel” is because there is no direction — it only has a singly guy greenlighting (and then immediately… ehm… redlighting(?)) art assets solely on the basis on trying to replicate something he saw somewhere else that he thought was cool at time and wants in his game as well.

It's an incoherent mish-mash of every sci-fi style ever, copied from infinitely better originals, with no understanding of coherence or style, because even if any creativity happens to exist among the artists, the micromanager at the top has none at all. Any and all artistic capacity available at the company is directed (or more accurately, scattered) towards mimicry and replication, and without any attempt to even try to make those stolen ideas come from a matching pool. There is no clear and coherent vision, just “I like pizza, green, and the letter Q — let's mix those to make a tuba.” Of course the resulting music will have trouble reaching even the aesthetic levels of a squirrel in a blender.

…and the problem is also that it isn't just a management-level problem. “Archering” has become an established SC term for a reason.

I don't like to cultivate the notion of "incompetent/lazy programmers", be them from CiG, Frontier, Egosoft, wherever, from my outside perspective I don't see it like a field where you are allowed to improvise competence, you are either doing it because you are good at it, or you are doing something else entirely. Botched works come out of messy ideas, bad management and even worse planning, and no amout of state of the art programmers or magic germans will keep the ship afloat if the captain is an iceberg magnet.
The problem is that your base assumption only holds true if the management is competent enough to recognise and react to incompetence and either try to fix it or get rid of it. CI¬G is not such a place. There's also the flip-side of that coin: state-of-the-art programmers and magic germans will not stick around said iceberg magnet very long — they can get better work for better pay elsewhere. This leaves a very different set of programmers around to help the captain steer the ship, Suddenly there are even more sources for botched works, further reinforcing and further reinforced by the botch-enforcing management.
 
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Personally I believe SC will eventually become an actual game. Though they refer to it as a pledge, the money invested is still basically a investment in a kick start program. Ironically, there are ED player's that have or had invested considerably more in ED's kick start than I've got in SC which is a total of 170.00 U.S., and unlike myself who actually get a chance to play SC even with the shenanigans, They had to wait years before getting a chance which years later as of to date, still has shenanigans.
Kickstarter! It a pledge! Still no game. But shenanigans. For 170 United States (there's actually only 52, I believe, in which not always grow tomatoes). But other guys play a game, but with shenanigans. And fruit seed. Tomato.

I got a pizza in the oven right now. Got some tomato sauce on that too. Pledged right on top of it. The rest of the weekend is gonna be crispy bread and sausage. No tomatoes.
 
The roadmap has been updated. Not one single moon or planet is even listed. How are they getting to 100 systems? Or even 10?

And where is the accounting app they talked about yesterday? It's not listed.
 
The roadmap has been updated. Not one single moon or planet is even listed. How are they getting to 100 systems? Or even 10?

And where is the accounting app they talked about yesterday? It's not listed.
Remember when the progen was going to blow everything away? Was it that Sean guy, 😂 where are they now?
 
Remember when the progen was going to blow everything away? Was it that Sean guy, 😂 where are they now?

Yeah not sure why they need procgen in the first place for the few planetary objects they have....either a wasted tool or the wrong choice....kind of like the engine they picked
 
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