Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

Surefoot

S
What CR and a few other 1990's producers never understood, is that video games are a vastly different medium from movies (interactive or not). Mainly, the narration is totally different, and has been mastered by the likes of Irrational Games, Bethesda (pre-Fallout 76, of course), CDPR, or way before them the master himself Warren Spector and Looking Glass studio. Virtual Reality also redefined the techniques of narration and has been used in a spectacular manner by a few AAA games by now (including Alyx, Lone Echo, Edge of Nowhere..) - and Cyberpunk 2077 did use that forced 1st person as a narration technique as well. The inherent freedom of that interactive medium changes entirely the way you script you narrative and I would say it's closer to a pen&paper RPG in the way you build it, rather than a movie storyboard.
What's even more troubling is CR was in direct contact, and did work with Spector, but learned absolutely nothing from him. I know if i were to work with such brilliant people i'd be taking mental notes of everything they say or do (and I do love working with brilliant people in my domain, these are the best moments for me, and when i learn the most) - CR was even in one of the most prominent video game studios of the 90's and learned absolutely nothing from that experience, like how to lead a project towards delivery for example.

McGlashan said:
So why does SC look so utterly derivative and artless? Every interior looks like "generic grimdark sci-fi interior #23", every ship is "generic form-over-function, rule-of-cool space ship #17", every armour set, every weapon etc. There are zero iconic designs in the game, outside of unintentional classics like nipple jets or spaghetti monsters.
When Roberts says "classic", he means "a third-rate imitation of someone else's genre-defining movie from 40 years ago."
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I wouldnt go that far honestly, some designs are really good and CiG did hire some good talent in that domain. Crusader ships come to mind for really good, coherent design. The MSR for example is a looker, and is memorable. They also managed to convey an identity for each ship manufacturer. It's one domain where the teams could do a good job because they were unhindered by CiG complete idiotic management, and complete incompetence in software architecture.
 

McGlashan

McGlashan
It's fair enough that there's some internal consistency to the designs, but none of them are memorable in their own right, not least because some of them are... similar... to designs in other games and/or movies, as has been discussed in depth over the years. There may be some instances of talented artists managing to get some quality designs into the game, under the radar, but I do not believe Roberts himself has anything close to a distinctive creative voice of his own, and he has too much ego to knowingly allow anyone else any creative freedom.
 

VR Golgot

VR Golgot
McGlashan said:
So why does SC look so utterly derivative and artless? Every interior looks like "generic grimdark sci-fi interior #23", every ship is "generic form-over-function, rule-of-cool space ship #17", every armour set, every weapon etc. There are zero iconic designs in the game, outside of unintentional classics like nipple jets or spaghetti monsters.
When Roberts says "classic", he means "a third-rate imitation of someone else's genre-defining movie from 40 years ago."
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That’s the funny thing when he talks about 'building all the details of the world', is that he’s obviously channelling telling-by-showing maestros like Ridley Scott. (Whose pre-prod ethos extended to designing the set worlds to run off-camera, to keep the actors in the zone and allow for flexible shooting).

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUkGo3hymPg&t=4m33s


Chris understands the pitch, but once again doesn’t seem to understand the execution. He doesn’t seem like the guy to ask designers to layer multiple eras of working adaptions onto artefacts, to portray a lived-in reality. He’s more like the guy who just says 'make it look lived in'. So one designer will solve it like this, and the next will solve it like that. And Chris will throw random selections in the bin, to the sound of art leads flying out the revolving door ;)

I don’t think SC’s location art looks bad to be honest, given all that. But I would say that, for all their major efforts at creating local identity, a lot of it is undercut by things that seem to be Chris’s errant decisions. The t-shirt and jeans look, that embodies his ‘can’t walk around cityscapes in armour' idea of societal spaces. The insipid clothes shops, where the focus is on racks of 'physicalised objects' over some mis-en-scene evocation or anything. (Which they could do otherwise with their mad bespoke location budget). It all starts to scream 'bland ideas from a bland mind' after a while...
 

Surefoot

S
McGlashan said:
(...) I do not believe Roberts himself has anything close to a distinctive creative voice of his own, and he has too much ego to knowingly allow anyone else any creative freedom.
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I think the lead designers for each manufacturer do pretty much what they want there. CR had obvious input on RSI line of ships, which are indeed forgettable, and certainly on the Freelancer to make it look like the Firefly, but these were the early years (the insanity of that sentence...). The newer designs that have emerged are much better, consistent, and memorable indeed, IMHO they have even a bit more identity than ED ships that were in most part inherited from the old Elite games (I still love my Gutamaya ships though, mostly due to the interiors).
And to be fair it's a criticism you can level at just any space game. Do you remember about ANY ship (and draw a quick rough representation of it) from NMS ? Or X Series ? Or even Freespace ? Or if we go to series, people can name the Rocinante from The Expanse, but can you just draw it from memory ? So yeah the Firefly stands out but the series was centered around that one ship.
 

VR Mr Teatime

VR Mr Teatime
I suspect this is because in CR's mind PC/Console games are supposed to be like the movies he likes and would love to direct and is therefore dressing his sets, rather than creating an open universe of believable worlds to explore. The results from that approach are a bit like the end of Blazing Saddles, where its revealed that the building facades are just that...facades. All that has been achieved to date is to make those sets a bit bigger than they used to be, but they are still film sets.

COD also excels at this approach, but that series as with SC's architecture (both visible and in an engine sense), is mostly incompatible with an open world MMO.

Coming up with a new design language is a truly creative thing to do, but I can't see CR mentally journeying into the places required to say conjure up Giger's Alien spaceship, or Tolkein's Mordor. Even on something like Ron Cobb's Nostromo interiors, which has very well executed and hidden derivative design language, it was approached from the perspective of "a frustrated engineer" (http://www.roncobb.net/05-Alien_Nostromo.html) . I doubt CR has engineered anything in his life, so its like asking a whale to do embroidery.
 

Mole HD

Mole HD
Surefoot said:
I think the lead designers for each manufacturer do pretty much what they want there. CR had obvious input on RSI line of ships, which are indeed forgettable, and certainly on the Freelancer to make it look like the Firefly, but these were the early years (the insanity of that sentence...). The newer designs that have emerged are much better, consistent, and memorable indeed, IMHO they have even a bit more identity than ED ships that were in most part inherited from the old Elite games (I still love my Gutamaya ships though, mostly due to the interiors).
And to be fair it's a criticism you can level at just any space game. Do you remember about ANY ship (and draw a quick rough representation of it) from NMS ? Or X Series ? Or even Freespace ? Or if we go to series, people can name the Rocinante from The Expanse, but can you just draw it from memory ? So yeah the Firefly stands out but the series was centered around that one ship.
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;)

wa1Vmc1.jpg
 

Skizomeuh

Skizomeuh
Mole HD said:
;)

wa1Vmc1.jpg
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Would be fun - and quite a long task - to list every ripped off concepts by CIG...

amigacooke {macOS} said:
He leaned how to pitch for financial backing it would seem.
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He was already good at it, just watch the Garriott and Spector talk: even experimented designers were easily convinced by the Visionaire, even knowing the the guy. I don't think he learned that much from his good old days apart from the fact that its simpler and less risky to beg for money to people that don't count (or don't care counting) their money and don't ask for a return.
 
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Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
[VR] Mr Teatime said:
I suspect this is because in CR's mind PC/Console games are supposed to be like the movies he likes and would love to direct and is therefore dressing his sets, rather than creating an open universe of believable worlds to explore. The results from that approach are a bit like the end of Blazing Saddles, where its revealed that the building facades are just that...facades. All that has been achieved to date is to make those sets a bit bigger than they used to be, but they are still film sets.

COD also excels at this approach, but that series as with SC's architecture (both visible and in an engine sense), is mostly incompatible with an open world MMO.

Coming up with a new design language is a truly creative thing to do, but I can't see CR mentally journeying into the places required to say conjure up Giger's Alien spaceship, or Tolkein's Mordor. Even on something like Ron Cobb's Nostromo interiors, which has very well executed and hidden derivative design language, it was approached from the perspective of "a frustrated engineer" (http://www.roncobb.net/05-Alien_Nostromo.html) . I doubt CR has engineered anything in his life, so its like asking a whale to do embroidery.
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Its all fine if the world you are building is consistent, and to be honest SC fails on this with so many styles stuffed in haphazardly. Its OK to have rule of cool if everything obeys at least some basics, and some SC ships really fit the bill but overall its all over the place. Todays RoC is not the same as the day befores, and you can see from whats designed what was in vogue at the time of its design.
 

Red Anders

Red Anders
Skizomeuh said:
Would be fun - and quite a long task - to list every ripped off concepts by CIG...


He was already good at it, just watch the Garriott and Spector talk: even experimented designers were easily convinced by the Visionaire, even knowing the the guy. I don't think he learned that much from his good old days apart from the fact that its simpler and less risky to beg for money to people that don't count (or don't care counting) their money and don't ask for a return.
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He's a classic flim-flam man, the one they put up front to sell the deal with vague bull. Literally dreams.txt. Unlike the other two you mentioned - whatever Garriott may have become, I think his place in gaming history is secure for ever and Spector isn't far behind in my book - they are two of the most innovative people to ever work in the industry.
 
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VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Thargon said:
That's the same as siphoning funds right?
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I’d say taking home over a quarter mil for overseeing this farce of a development year could count as siphoning ;)

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FWIW SA’s accountant snake says the Coutts loan has in fact been repaid, but they’ve kept it open as credit line of sorts:

The Coutts loan (£1.54m) was repaid in 2018 when they got the Calders first load of cash but if no one gets the charge removed the auditors have to report it as still existing. Think of it more like an overdraft facility that has a zero balance, Coutts charge still exists in case they use it again. Last year's accounts:

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VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Here are some fun 2011 Chris quotes I stumbled on, while digging up the Outlander stuff:

“I hated programming,” Roberts said. “I just thought it was really tedious, but I did it because I could see this thing in my head that I wanted to realize on the screen. I was very efficient about my programming because I wanted to do it as quickly as possible, and get to the end result as fast as I could. It got to the point where games, when I left, just sort of felt like they were these huge engineering jobs.”
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“I’m actually taking a look at the game business now and I see it a bit more like the movie business,” Roberts said. “There are more stable tools, and there’s certainly a much bigger talent base…it just sort of feels like you can do very ambitious, high-end projects and not have to take five years to do them. You can get one done in two years or something. [To] do something pretty special in two years, that hits my creative sweet spot.”
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“One of the things that was attractive when I quit games, was movies take you about a year, year and a half to get done,” Roberts said. “All my success [in the video game industry], the Wing Commanders were all between one and one and a half years in production cycle…when it takes too much beyond that…you start to lose the fun of the creativity. [Game development] doesn’t need to be these huge long dev cycles.”
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VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Oh incidentally, another bit which caught the SA accountant’s eye:

In previous years I complained that one of their disclosures was inadequate, now we have some extra detail on it...what could possibly be prejudicial on this information unless all their sales were in Russia or something. This is from RSI LTD:

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