Ta-ra
- Thread starter Jackie Silver
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My god man, do you not read what you write. You are insulting and unpleasent, you call people a troll, and then you accuse others of bringing the forums down.
You need to have a long look in the mirror my friend if you think I am bringing the forums down. Most people I can have a good conversation or argument with which doesn't decend to petty insults, but you insult people, put people down, belittle them and you accuse them of things they haven't done, call people trolls when they are only voicing their own opinion.
The only person being a troll at the moment is yourself.
Aye, that beastie can be a wee rascal. Stirring up a' the sediment, looking for the way out. [yesnod]
"Inch-thick, knee-deep”. That sort of thing?
Not every explorer wants to do that. Some just want to get as far away from everyone as they can. Others, like me, enjoy the monotony of long journeys. Like a quiet nightshift when everything is running smoothly. <Cue Psycho music>
It might be oriented to the shooter crowd. It never crossed my mind.
Look at it like it is to promote a new wave of younger explorers. The bubble is preparing to expand as the Thargoids approach. Or something.
These Johnny-come-latelies just have more advanced gear than we did back then.
Do you remember the days when there was no discovery scanner and you had to find the planets by eye? Flying through the system fast and looking for parallax movement.
Burke, to be fair it is you who has consistently insulted anyone who likes the new mechanics, and it's been you who has been posting in every possible thread about the new mechanics just to proclaim how terrible they are and how it will destroy Elite and the exploration community, over and over and over again.
And you haven't even played the new mechanics for one second yet.
The dramatic hypocrisy could stand some dialing down there Burke. Just sayin.
Some of the rationale behind the design descisions in this game are confusing to say the least. They could've improved exploration immeasurably at any time since Horizons dropped by doing something as simple as making persistent POI show up on the scanner, but chose not to. They've now done a complete u turn with the infinite God probes, so the only way to slow things down now is to make us jump through the dreadful and obnoxious FSS mini game hoops just to discover that a good 80-90% of the time there will be nothing worth looking at anyway. I'd rather IDS and parallax quite honestly.
How do you envision exploring a solar system would be done in real life? Assuming that you are a one wo/man operation and don’t want to spend six months of real time at it. [BTW Sorry for the gender confusion earlier in the thread] Seriously I am interested in knowing what you would do. When you first entered a system in imaginary RL
What FD have delivered is very close to how I imagined it would be. So I am a fan of the concept. But readily admit it is a host of mini-games. That I saw as I wandered. [blah]
I probably won't use it over much.
My complaint is that you need to stop to use it.
You must expect the odd nova every now and again. It's the way of the Universe. :x
No. Its not me thats in every thread trying to bat away every argument. The evidence is all over the forums. I post, but not continuously all day trying to answer everybody. And its definately not me making weak personal attacks. Big difference being told you are bad at a game to "disgusting" and he obvioulsy wants a reposnse cause hes been at it for a few days. I just wont respond to it any more and "to be fair" if i upset somebody so much then they should not respond to me.
Edit: and just let me say basic forum skills and etiquette should teach you that if you charge headlong towards other forum goers shouting the odds and talking down to everybody like some awful school teacher addressing a naughty child then your credibility is 0
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I have never said you are bad at a game. I said I found you actions disgusting. I did not say you were disgusting. I don't know who you are or anything about you. But if I find your actions disgusting, I will say so in the hope that you will stop what you are doing. Maybe think about what you write and how it can be viewed is a good thing, yes.
It hasn't worked so far and you still insult other forum users and fdev. It is not the way to be.
Achilles7
Banned
Trust me to pick Finnish as my language of the day to wave off my gf this morning....slap in the face to show for it!
Thanks a lot, Henkka!
Btw, is 'Foot-in-Mouth Disease' common in the Nordic countries? [big grin]
One thing I find interesting is that people aren't giving FDev any credit for listening to the community. I don't mean the fact that they're adding the new mechanics in the first place. I'm referring to how they've sped up the new system. Compared to the original description that they posted, they've changed a lot, and sped it up quite a bit, directly due to feedback.
Here's a list that comes to mind:
And I'm sure I'm missing some. They're streamlining it and speeding it up, because of the feedback on the forum. I think this is a good thing overall. But this too becomes a point of contention in the community, since some still see it as dumbing down the tools further into being a pointless mini-game. I think that just shows that you can't please everyone, since some people want more complexity, some want less, and others don't want the new system at all.
Personally, I'd still like to synthesize the probes, as long as it isn't too cumbersome. I was thinking something like 10,000 probes, with a cheap refill synth recipe. But I get that the non-horizons players would have a hard time.
Here's a list that comes to mind:
- Infinite probes (saving time by skipping the synthesis and material gathering, but I think this is really intended just to allow it to be used by non-horizons players).
- FSS spectrum is as simple to understand as possible, with the sections labeled.
- Removed the distance-tuning from the FSS as a second axis, replacing it with the "adaptive zoom".
- Stars are auto-scanned with the honk. Originally the honk was just going to reveal the arrival star, and the orbital plane.
- Scanning one asteroid cluster scans them all.
And I'm sure I'm missing some. They're streamlining it and speeding it up, because of the feedback on the forum. I think this is a good thing overall. But this too becomes a point of contention in the community, since some still see it as dumbing down the tools further into being a pointless mini-game. I think that just shows that you can't please everyone, since some people want more complexity, some want less, and others don't want the new system at all.
Personally, I'd still like to synthesize the probes, as long as it isn't too cumbersome. I was thinking something like 10,000 probes, with a cheap refill synth recipe. But I get that the non-horizons players would have a hard time.
Well, one needs to just take a critical and detailed look at the FSS and how it was implemented (bugs galore, and plenty of tweaks to be made) to see that it was most likely a rushed job. Even when compared to the new DSS (probing) mechanics. Which is quite a let-down, considering how the update was supposed to be the exploration update. When it comes to quality though, mining and squadrons have been done remarkably better. Maybe the discovery parts of the Codex will (and frankly, I expect this was probably the most difficult to actually implement), but without seeing things live, that's a bit difficult to tell.
But no matter what mechanics you throw at things, we always come back to the same thing: the composition of the galaxy. It is what it is, and it can barely be changed, just added to. Of course, there's plenty of room there; my main point is that all explorers know that the vast majority of systems and places have nothing worth looking at anyway. (I think that the 80-90% figure that SystematicChaos wrote above is optimistic.) Plus there's the problem with hand-placed versus procedurally generated stuff. Seeding the galaxy with manually created stuff is much easier than coming up with procedurally generated stuff that has good variety, but as has been noted before, once you've seen one kind, you've seen them all. The best that you can do then is to find something that has a visually interesting environment... and then we come back to procedural generation.
Take geysers, for example. Now that they are (too) easy to find, the only somewhat unique ones will be those that offer some nice views nearby. However, that means you aren't really looking for the manually-authored stuff (the geysers), but what you're actually looking for is the procedurally generated environment, one with hopefully some geysers around, to improve the view even further.
However, the Chapter Four update is focused almost entirely on adding hand-authored stuff (I'm not sure about Lagrangian clouds, haven't checked those in detail yet: do they also use a few hand-made models like nebulae do?), so we're back to hoping that the next expansion will actually improve the galaxy generation.
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What is this 'DD' being mentioned, please? I assume it to be a game but have no idea which. sorry to go off-topic, but thanks
What is this 'DD' being mentioned, please? I assume it to be a game but have no idea which. sorry to go off-topic, but thanks
DD is just an abbreviation for "Dangerous Discussions", which is the main general area of the forum.
DD usually stands for Dangerous Discussion, and it's... well. I'll try to be polite: the signal-to-noise ratio is at its lowest there.
The DDF, on the other hand, stands for the Design Decision Forum, usually its archives. The wiki article actually sums it up quite nicely.
The DDF, on the other hand, stands for the Design Decision Forum, usually its archives. The wiki article actually sums it up quite nicely.
Thanks both
Wait, is this for real? Is that new for beta 4, because it certainly wasn't that way last week. I'm logging on now to see for myself, because that would be a great improvement.
This is very true. Same with VR support, both in and out of the FSS. They clearly overhauled their graphics pipeline, and VR has been a total mess in the beta, with many visual effects only visible in the left eye, or completely absent or glitchy in the FSS.
Yeah I think it was a beta 3 or beta 4 addition, I forget which.
You get an image and the data up on a planet when you resolve it in the DSS - no need to hop to the System Map all the time. And the DSS resolves surface features you would have had to eyeball before. And I don't understand why anyone would be against finally getting features in the we asked for from the beginning. Unless of course those people are just generally against change. Which seems to be the case.
There's a couple of issues I think, but I don't believe it's about people not liking, or being unwilling to, change.
There's basically a few categories of reaction to this change. Some like it very much, are delighted to say goodbye to the honk, and reject strongly any 'diluting' of the new changes. Some like it very much, enjoy using it, enjoy the opportunities the new system offers, wouldn't want to go back to the old system, but can understand how some players enjoyed the old system and would have no problem leaving that as an available option. There's people who don't really enjoy the new system for various reasons. Typically they have no problem with the new system being available, some might even use it on occasion, but would prefer options to be able to use different methods to explore.
The first category (which is actually on reflection only a few people) are the ones I didn't really get. The new system is undoubtedly more productive, easier, quicker. Whether it's more skilled, difficult, challenging, scientific is debatable. It definitely delivered the opportunity for FD to introduce more stuff for players to find and provides a method for them / us to find those things. Personally, I've always maintained that the two ways could coexist, especially in exploration, which is IMHO not exactly competitive.
Then I read a post a few days back from one of those who vehemently believes that the two methods cannot coexist, at all, and it appears that they do indeed believe that exploration is a competition to see who can tag things.
I'm in the third category. Personally, I don't really like the FSS. Not because I find it difficult or challenging to use, it's not really, it's mainly that I have played Elite games to fly spaceships and do things while flying spaceships, and for me the FSS kind of jerks me out of that environment. I also am coming to the conclusion that the FSS is really randomness (and I find the randomness in Elite its weakest point TBH) dressed up as something else. The FSS doesn't remove the randomness in the game, it just provides an activity to sift through the randomness to find what you are actually looking for. It removes passive waiting with the opportunity to get the same result with active game-play, which of course is good, but forcing that on players is potentially risky if players don't enjoy that specific game-play.
I'm all for active game-play, I'm all for skill based game-play, especially when it's provided as an optional goal for a player to work on in the way for example that fixed weapons are. Nobody has to use them, but they are there and provide advantages if the player wants to try them. Likewise, the FSS provides advantages, so let it stand on its merits and if players want to use it they will based upon the advantages that it provides.
Personally I cannot see me exploring again, simply because I don't enjoy using the FSS. I'll use it to find USS if I'm looking for something, because that's just a minute or two out of my play time, not a huge deal. But if I were exploring, playing Elite would become playing the FSS.
FD have tried to encourage players to play the game a certain way over the history of the game. They would seem to like and encourage people to play together, but they don't force it, they have in the past said they would like it if more players used fixed weapons, but they backed off from trying to force them to do so. It's a risk trying to force people to use the FSS, especially as it's such a different environment from everything else in the game. Time will tell I suppose if it is / was a risk worth taking.
To me it looks like a lot of thought and work has gone into it, the way it ties into mining, civilised space and the codex. I really fail how anyone can think like this to be honest. It's insulting to FDev and their developers.
Surely that depends on what your criteria of what is worth looking at is. Also if atmospheric planets are the next big update (which I believe it is), then I can see most systems having something that is interesting and worth looking at. Of course that would end up slowing things down ever more, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
I really like the probe mechanics, but they should have pinpointed search areas, not the precise locations. I agree it makes them too easy to find.
We don't know what else they have added which hasn't been shown. Lagrange points are in. Also the limitations on planet surface have gone up (I don't know what the limitation is now). Before there was a limit of four or five permanant POI, it has now gone up dramitically. You can get over 20 geoloical locations on a planet, which is of course realistic. Think how many geological locations on earth, and that isn't a particulary big planet.
So yes things have changed with regards to galaxy. And yes we do need more stuff to discover. The beauty of the new mechanics is that they can keep adding stuff every update.
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