I don't comment on the here often...
Terra EX (DTEA's Squadron) vs The Code BGS War
FalterWho isn't?
This to me has to be one of the more confusing and disjointed threads currently active and since it is in DD, that is quite an achievement!
It starts off well, the OP lovingly describes in absolute rapture how the mighty Code vanquished their cowardly opponents who cheekily hid in Solo/PG. But instead of being a shining example that PvP isn't the only solution to a faction war, that there are other methods to win the OP takes the sharp left hand turn into Modes are Bad territory, completely ignoring the simple fact that the Code just proved every argument he has subsequently made completely wrong. The Code proved beyond a shadow of doubt that it doesn't matter what mode either side are in, or what platform they are on or what timezone you play in, the better, more organised team will win - without firing a shot at a Commander. Yet somehow, against all logic and common sense, the OP blames FD and pushes for Open Only [Everything]. Now I could understand that sentiment if the Code lost because the other scoundrels were in other modes but that isn't the case.
None of this makes any sense ….
It starts off well, the OP lovingly describes in absolute rapture how the mighty Code vanquished their cowardly opponents who cheekily hid in Solo/PG. But instead of being a shining example that PvP isn't the only solution to a faction war, that there are other methods to win the OP takes the sharp left hand turn into Modes are Bad territory, completely ignoring the simple fact that the Code just proved every argument he has subsequently made completely wrong. The Code proved beyond a shadow of doubt that it doesn't matter what mode either side are in, or what platform they are on or what timezone you play in, the better, more organised team will win - without firing a shot at a Commander. Yet somehow, against all logic and common sense, the OP blames FD and pushes for Open Only [Everything]. Now I could understand that sentiment if the Code lost because the other scoundrels were in other modes but that isn't the case.
None of this makes any sense ….
Seems you're willfully ignoring the point. The fact that The CODE won this so-called engagement just means this is not an example of sour grapes. Even though the status quo supports their faction well enough to secure a total victory, they still advocate for player conflict to take place where players can engage in conflict, which, I mean... duh. It's not an attempt to give them a leg up on the other faction, because they clearly don't need it. It's purely because increased player interaction would make the game more fun for everyone. The whole point of conflict mechanics is to pit players against one another.
There's such a dearth of ability in this game that pvpers almost to a man spend inordinate amounts of time and effort trying to help the lower skilled players to become more competent at the complex mechanics of the game. With the amount of brainiac nerds in this community, you'd think the deepest, most dynamic and most challenging gameplay would be where everyone gravitates. Why people hide in private groups and advocate for cheese mechanics like min/maxed trade or exploration builds, etc. is really a head-scratcher.
Because we don;t need video games to validate ourselves. We mostly, if I can assume the voice of others, are just looking for entertainment. Simples.
Nah, all the Code achieved was to prove you don't need PvP to win an engagement - you are ignoring that point it seems ..
Oh and I couldn't resist:
Your question: Why people hide in private groups and advocate for cheese mechanics like min/maxed trade or exploration builds, etc. is really a head-scratcher.
Answer: Exactly, when they can be in open and be attacked by min/maxed combat builds …..
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Not everyone finds PvP to be "fun" - which renders this contention inaccurate. The game has been sold to all with entirely optional PvP, after all - and, while Devs have indicated that the majority of players play in Open, they have also indicated that they are "well aware" that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP.
If Frontier's intention had been for all forms of competition in the game to require direct player/player interaction then that they'd have been PvP-gated in the design. They weren't.
That relies on those other players wanting to spend the time engaging in rock-paper-scissors in space.
Maybe those players don't see the attraction of PvP - and don't want to modify their gameplay just because some players see it as the be all and end all of the game (when, in fact, it's an optional extra)
To avoid those cheesing combat in min/maxed combat builds targeting non-combat builds - as encounters like that don't constitute "fun" for all players.
.... and characterising playing the game as intended as "hiding" doesn't go any way to encouraging those players to play with others (who are also playing the game as intended). That we can all play the game as intended without needing to play with each other is a great strength of this game.
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There is very little rock-paper-scissors in PvP, my friend. Some luck, yes. But in general, PvP is mostly skill based. There is a reason why the most powerful weapons are fixed and difficult to use. There is a reason why the most maneuverable ship is the most difficult to control. The early designers of the flight model were geniuses.
The subtlety never ceases to astound me.
I am a former classical musician who was/is very intimate in the Quixotian quest for technical perfection. PvP in Elite Dangerous mimics that challenge quite significantly.
High level PvPers are not gamblers, they are extremely deliberate and hard-working technicians.
o7
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Working hard at something that many find to be a waste of their time - hence the mode-shared galaxy which accommodates more than that play-style.There is very little rock-paper-scissors in PvP, my friend. Some luck, yes. But in general, PvP is mostly skill based. There is a reason why the most powerful weapons are fixed and difficult to use. There is a reason why the most maneuverable ship is the most difficult to control. The early designers of the flight model were geniuses.
The subtlety never ceases to astound me.
I am a former classical musician who was/is very intimate in the Quixotian quest for technical perfection. PvP in Elite Dangerous mimics that challenge quite significantly.
High level PvPers are not gamblers, they are extremely deliberate and hard-working technicians.
o7
PvPers, I wonder if we could use multicrew to show PvEers what the flight model can Really Do?
I think maybe they would understand us better. And especially why we are so sensitive to bugs.
o7
I think maybe they would understand us better. And especially why we are so sensitive to bugs.
o7
I can empathize and realize that combat is not for everyone, and I respect the right to choose one's playstyle.
I replied to your statement because I very much wanted to counter the view that PvP in Elite Dangerous is "rock-paper-scissors." It's akin to saying that achievements in extreme exploring were completely accidental and had nothing to do with determined calculation and mental stamina.
I also would never say anything a player deliberately chooses to do in recreation, to be a "waste of time."
Although I very much experience and understand the extreme vexation in having to compete with invisible and therefore nigh invulnerable opponents, the tendency of we PvPers to belittle those who choose to fight in Solo or PG mode is frankly, extremely stupidly undiplomatic and will only make the situation worse.
I used to be absolutely terrified of PvP and absolutely incredulous as to why someone I did not hurt in any way would blow me up and cost me in credits and most importantly, time.
However, I have come to realize that people are unfathomably, unfathomably different. Due to genetics and upbringing, judgement calls on character cannot be reasonable. I, too, hope to better avoid them.
o7
Isn't this like two people sitting down to play a game of Go and then one of them complaining that his ability at Boxing isn't relevant to the game they're playing?
@Slange Would have to be in the rings for them to have a visual reference, but I've done that recently with one of the Ghost Legion guys to help him get a handle on using lats/roll and timing his boost.
If you've encountered these guys on reddit and youtube, you know why we don't bother being diplomatic anymore. Forget being nasty, if you fail to drip sugar all over one point you make, the gloves will come off for them and you'll be accused of everything short of birthing the antichrist. They'll wish death on you and your family and go into great detail about how they want it to happen. The ones who do this in game get banned, but there are plenty of others on reddit and elsewhere. So at this point, it's worth just being honest with them and telling them their opinions are based in ignorance.I can empathize and realize that combat is not for everyone, and I respect the right to choose one's playstyle.
I replied to your statement because I very much wanted to counter the view that PvP in Elite Dangerous is "rock-paper-scissors." It's akin to saying that achievements in extreme exploring were completely accidental and had nothing to do with determined calculation and mental stamina.
I also would never say anything a player deliberately chooses to do in recreation, to be a "waste of time."
Although I very much experience and understand the extreme vexation in having to compete with invisible and therefore nigh invulnerable opponents, the tendency of we PvPers to belittle those who choose to fight in Solo or PG mode is frankly, extremely stupidly undiplomatic and will only make the situation worse.
I used to be absolutely terrified of PvP and absolutely incredulous as to why someone I did not hurt in any way would blow me up and cost me in credits and most importantly, time.
However, I have come to realize that people are unfathomably, unfathomably different. Due to genetics and upbringing, judgement calls on character cannot be reasonable. I, too, hope to better avoid them.
o7
Hilarious drivel. Dunning-Kruger comes to mind...
They would if they got good. Regardless, optional PVP is fine, there are game modes for it. That those game modes can still somehow be PVP is ridiculous. The idea that the bears can completely avoid gameplay they dislike and get equal rewards to everyone else, while the open players can't avoid the gameplay they dislike and get equal rewards to the bears is ridiculous. As it stands, bears can invade a PVP faction's BGS and force PVPers to waste 4 nights of quality gameplay to putter around with NPCs. That is the status quo. There is no counter benefit for the PVPers, nothing they can force the bears to do. Furthermore, all those players who are hiding in private group get a buff to all other BGS activities because they make no concessions to:
-learning to build a ship
-learning evasion in supercruise and normal space
-grinding for a build
-building for survival
-being interrupted in delivering gameplay tokens by hostile players
All of this leads to a clear and unfair advantage for the carebears hiding away from the full game.
That's nice. If your assumption is correct (it's more likely that they simply failed to think through these aspects of game design, since BGS was not "intended" to be manipulated), their intention was incorrect. It can be fixed.
This is an ignorant statement. There are rock/paper/scissors builds, but it would be foolish to go into an open PVP engagement with hard counter builds, especially over a prolonged conflict, when your opponent can simply switch to a more versatile build or a hard counter to your hard counter. All counter builds are very weak to something.
It's optional to play the full game, yes. There are restricted modes. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there's no sensible reason for those modes to have impact upon the full game.
Why would anyone take non-combat builds into a conflict zone? Maybe one time to see what happens, but are Elite players as stupid as you're accusing them of being? I can understand a new player needing help escaping ganks. It took two hours of theory and practice to make one of my squadron's noobs unkillable for a G5 FDL in his unengineered material gathering DBX, but an entire faction of players experienced enough to expand their influence and start a war with a neighboring faction can't be held to the same standard.
This "playing as intended" schtick is a crutch. The game as intended did not include engineering. We play the game as it is, and we lobby for the game to be improved as it should be.
Funny thing about Dunning and Kruger's study is that they show that people who actually know what they're talking about know when they know what they're talking about. No matter how you try to dress up your comment, "no u r teh dummy cuz i r smart" is how it reads. Thanks for contributing meaningful discourse.
Yea and all we hear is "wahh my pvp I must rulez ", thx also for your contribution. No niche extremists should change game design.
This is the part that gets me.
Dislike PvP all you want, but the instant you seek them out to impose undesired gameplay upon them while using game mechanics to stack the odds in your favour, when you have the option of not doing that, you're morally little different to someone going out and attacking trade ships with a combat fit.
Modes aside, don't claim the moral high ground if you're the one initiating aggression, and definitely don't go out of your way to seek someone out and attack them if you want to pretend to be a good guy.