General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

... trials like these aren't particularly risky....
:unsure: I always forget that this isn't one of the medical forums. (That is a compliment, Cmdrs.)
Should have pointed out the stuff below, instead of assuming everyone can see it. Your arguments are logical as always, and generally valid I would estimate. In fact, I concede. The following is just about the volunteer, because it needs be said.

It is my fault for not pointing out this stuff up front. The average well read person isn't trained to spot the connections.

Well, this trial involves using mRNA, instead of a standard protein type vaccine.
That increases the risk of autoimmune conditions. Like multiple sclerosis, or systemic lupus erythematosus. And those are very very bad.

This volunteer, Jenny, has TWO prexisting autoimmune conditions going in.
She has Hashimoto's thyroiditis. And she has asthma, a recent addition to the autoimmune list. But she's doing it anyway, most likely aware of the issue, (or why mention she has these problems? )

The situation is analogous to offering alcohol to a man with a bad liver. Or telling somebody with an osteoporotic backbone to do some falls. This is not the kind of risk we would countenance in our families.

Maybe it will be OK. Maybe it will become a cautionary tale. But if you have an autoimmune issue too, this is how we are going to find out how safe that vaccine is. And it could well maim, or kill Jenny. Maybe take out her kidneys.
She certainly doesn't deserve that.

So I judge her knowledge of the stakes to be as good as her bravery. She is the precise opposite of any antivaxxer waste of skin. Like a certain Lion, we all know.
 
:unsure: I always forget that this isn't one of the medical forums. (That is a compliment, Cmdrs.)
Should have pointed out the stuff below, instead of assuming everyone can see it. Your arguments are logical as always, and generally valid I would estimate. In fact, I concede. The following is just about the volunteer, because it needs be said.

It is my fault for not pointing out this stuff up front. The average well read person isn't trained to spot the connections.

Well, this trial involves using mRNA, instead of a standard protein type vaccine.
That increases the risk of autoimmune conditions. Like multiple sclerosis, or systemic lupus erythematosus. And those are very very bad.
These are phase III trials with thousands of people getting a vaccine. If the risk of these conditions were high, they never would have made it to human testing at all.

The magnitude of an ill-effect is only part of risk. The odds of that negative experience occurring are a big part of the equation. If the result of a screw up is likely to be fatal, but the odds of it happening are tiny, I'm going to call that low risk. The same rationale is why I take the risks posed by COVID-19 so seriously...the odds of me dying from it are extremely small, but the odds of severe case (~10%) combined with the odds of lingering symptoms (~35%) is more than enough to make it scary, even looking at it from a purely personal level (the rational assumption being I wouldn't be in a position to spread it to anyone else as I don't need to go anywhere). In general, I think people worry too much about the worst case scenario and don't consider the more mild, but vastly more likely scenarios, when assessing risks.

This volunteer, Jenny, has TWO prexisting autoimmune conditions going in.
She has Hashimoto's thyroiditis. And she has asthma, a recent addition to the autoimmune list. But she's doing it anyway, most likely aware of the issue, (or why mention she has these problems? )

The situation is analogous to offering alcohol to a man with a bad liver. Or telling somebody with an osteoporotic backbone to do some falls. This is not the kind of risk we would countenance in our families.

Maybe it will be OK. Maybe it will become a cautionary tale. But if you have an autoimmune issue too, this is how we are going to find out how safe that vaccine is. And it could well maim, or kill Jenny. Maybe take out her kidneys.
She certainly doesn't deserve that.

So I judge her knowledge of the stakes to be as good as her bravery. She is the precise opposite of any antivaxxer waste of skin. Like a certain Lion, we all know.
Her elevated personal risks due to her preexisting conditions are a good point.
 
Volunteers are certainly needed for these things, and we all ultimately benefit from them, but these people are compensated for their time and trials like these aren't particularly risky. Hell, being part of a trial where one only has a 50% chance of getting an unproven vaccine still means they have better odds than the general populace.
In France, the volunteers are not remunerated.

Just compensated for transportation, meals and other expenses. But it's very restrictive.

In any case we can add an additional characteristic to what I was saying.

"Egocentrism and seeking gratification for themselves" AND financial interest, profit-seeking.

Purity in the act is very rare.

Which does not detract from their courage or their unconsciousness.

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They aren't getting serious financial inducements or lost wages covered, but they should be getting compensated to the extent that they aren't sacrificing anything, financially, by participating.
 
Oh the smell of freedom, even in socialist countries.
Denmark are a parliamentary democracy with a Monarch and a coalition government, not sure how you'd confuse that with socialist.

Never mind though, more vaccine being available for those worth protecting is good news.
 
Oh the smell of freedom, even in socialist countries.
A good thing here.

In France too it will be very difficult to make vaccination compulsory.

1 in 2 people do not want to receive the vaccine.

It’s too early and not far enough behind.

In any case, availability will be limited and reserved for nursing staff and the elderly.

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Oh the smell of freedom, even in socialist countries.
Do not confuse socialist and communist.

France is a democracy and a republic with a parliament and a senate and opposition political parties. Freedom of expression is the norm.

And yet it was often socialist. :)

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I believe it will be almost mandatory for caregivers.

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I mean, ask their opinion. I would bet that there are not too many anti-vaxers, among the nursing profession and if they state publicly, that they would be happy to take it, it should stamp out the anti-vax noise.
 
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The government does not have the right or authority to put something in your body without your consent. If they do try this it's morally the same as sterilizing the disabled. The individual starts and ends with the body, any government that violates that is not worth your respect.
 
I mean, ask their opinion. I would bet that there are not too many anti-vaxers, among the nursing profession and if they state publicly, that they would be happy to take it, it stamp out the anti-vax noise.
But it is known that the medical staff are for the vaccine.

It's normal because they are on the front line.

But healthcare workers represent a very small part of the population.

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