But you CAN defend your faction in open - we keep telling you. You do it with missions! You just can't do it by SHOOTING them.
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The fallacy of how PvP can protect your system from being undermined.
- Thread starter Agony_Aunt
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But you CAN defend your faction in open - we keep telling you. You do it with missions! You just can't do it by SHOOTING them.
And you please stop misunderstanding me on purpose.
I am talking about player interaction. Direct player interaction.
I really think, that a game where the only chance to react to such a threat is by doing PVE stuff yourself, rather then interacting with the people who attack you, wont have a bright future.
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Dunno, I find that Frontier and David Braben explained exactly what the game would and wouldn't be very, very clearly much more then any other game....
No, it is a game with PvP in it.-----------
Actually it is PvP game. Undermining someone else efforts in BGS is Player Versus Player activity. Participating in PP is PvP activity. Everything performed into the same shared virtual reality affects all players in this virtual reality. ED is PvP game from day 1 but with funny feature that you are unable to see your opponents.
It is a game where you can attack other people, however the game does not hinge on PvP, PvP is not a determining factor anywhere, and I feel it was communicated quite clearly, so no, ED is nota PvP game, but a game where you can PvP, there is a big difference between the two, though I suppose most aren't used to such things of late. But it is a far better thing in my book then a lot of other PvP games out here, and look how big these kinds of topics get, people completely ignore that they are still here playing the game regardless of them saying PvP is bad or such, yet they are still here doing PvP, so even if it isn't a PvP focused game, it's PvP elements are solid compared to what other choices people have to play PvP in (a lot), otherwise why would people be here and arguing still?
You can have direct player interaction (by which I assume you mean combat). You can also defend your faction against attacks on the BGS. You just can't do one WITH the other - they are two separate things. You're trying to boil eggs with a hammer.
As many have mentioned - Direct Player Interaction (Shooty Shooty Pew-Pew fordalulz) isn't going to help your faction as far as the BGS is concerned. It is completely wasted effort. You placate the gods of the BGS by participating in the BGS, which really does not involve Direct Player Interaction.
Try it. Get one half of your group to engage in PVE. Get the other half to engage in PVP. See which group earns most influence for your faction.
Try it. Get one half of your group to engage in PVE. Get the other half to engage in PVP. See which group earns most influence for your faction.
If I have misunderstood, I apologize. It was certianly not intentional.
As far as I can tell, you are lamenting the lack of in-game avenues with which a player-minor-faction can counter other players affecting the BGS in a way that has a negative effect on said player-minor-faction, correct?
This lamentation is misplaced, as has been stated, there are many ways in-game by which you can accomplish this. Direct your effort there.
Now, if instead you are lamenting the lack of mechanics that allow direct player interaction to be one such mechanic, then yes, you have a point. But no where was that stated in the post I quoted. Simply a blanket statement alluding the absence of ANY mechanic by which you could counter action against a player-minor-faction's standing regarding the BGS.
He didn't misunderstand you - at least as I read your comment, anyway.
Come up with a way of direct player interaction to defend or attack a faction without opening the door to player control of territory a la "EvE corp destroying anyone that jumps in apart from their allies" and it's a possibility. The fact is, however, and this is pretty much paraphrasing the OP, that such things do not exist and cannot exist in ED.
Yeah in the early days they did. They WERE guilty of telling us we could DO PvP, piracy, and so on without making it clear how little the game would actively SUPPORT it though (there's a difference between "allow" and "support"). Then later on after it was released there was all the "blaze your own trail" and videos showing what appeared to be fleet games, PvP combat, and so on, again without making it clear that the game wasn't actually LIKE that.
As everyone knows I'm NOT a PvPer, but even I'll concede that the game's emphasis on PvE was poorly communicated to any who didn't actually go digging for the information.
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If a solo group is undermining my faction, I am FORCED to do PVE only, if I want to react on that.
As a PVP clan, PVE only is not what you are looking for.
Again: I could absolutely live with an universe, where PVE is still a part - the main part - for defending your faction. But not being able to even do a small tiny bit of PVP to defend your faction, as a PVP clan, will umtimately lead to PVP clans having no factions. If that is what you are going for - go ahead
sound to me very much like politics, intrigues, house of cards, game of thr... stations, you get the idea. yeah, very cool.
i assume, you like to compete.
now, if you compete in the field of BGS, you are competing for influence.
the value both sides are risking are "actions to influence minor factions influence per tick (~24 h)".
as an "attacker" i don't risk anything (i personally think, that is much of a flaw). if you shoot me, your controlling minor factions influence will get hurt. if you don't shoot me, i can finish my mission or other action to hurt your minor factions influence. there are always more missions for all other faction available, than yours. if i can make it to a civil war, you'll loose your station or you'll win, and we can start again.
if i can get you to focus on pvp instead of your minor faction, i have already won. without any risk. no matter which mode. i personally would do it in open just for that.
he is saying, it is slowing down, but no way to compete.
would love this as a feature for dictatorships... system security attacking cmdrs because they run missions for another faction.
and, obviously, the same goes for all systems, where a minor faction expanded to, which is also present in a player backed minor factions system? sounds great. not.
i think your "deterrence" argument is well covered in the OP by "slowing down".
i have written early in this thread, pvp might reduce the number of runs i do to 3 or 4, if i do blockaderunning, due to adrenalin and time.
all other " deterrence" doesn't happen, once you enter competition mode (you'll know this by yourself). best mission runner for me is a 10 mio cobra mk II... i don't care about the insurance (never lost it, though). bgs is a rich mans hobby anyways, as is pvp.
furthermore, your "deterrence" will hurt your minor factions influence, if it is the controlling faction. if i'm really angry, i will buy a sidey and let you kill me 15 times, so you get a nice influence loss of 3-5%.
basically, you'll always be better off, not to do any pvp in your time, if you want to help your minor faction. maybe you should switch to group or solo, if you fail to focus on your mission objective in open?
So don't get a faction... because FACTIONS ARE PvE THINGS!
Noone's FORCING you to do PvE... you're CHOOSING to do it by taking a faction, the same way I'm CHOOSING to accept PvP if I play in open. If you don't want to do PvE, don't accept a PvE faction!
PVP focused groups already exist, and they find players to fight. They are probably best not having an in-game faction, as the focus of that is PVE. You can of course have one, but you have to maintain it, or perhaps hire others to maintain it for you.
If PvP clans sign up for a faction and thus the BSG, but then finding PvP has no impact on the BGS, yes, that will lead to PvP clans having no factions. That is not "what we're going for", that's simply how the BGS works. Why did you sign up for a faction in the first place?
Absolutely, PvP only factions will eventually die in game because they are not playing the whole game. I don't think that is the games fault. Rather, it is the groups fault for applying for a minor faction in a game where PvP does not influence that factions standing in game, if that's not what they wanted. Take AA, for example. They started as a dedicated PvP group, but once they realized that the path to longevity and power in game is generated through the BGS, and thus PvE activity, they formed a dedicated PvE wing to accomplish those objectives. The PvP is primarily for fun, and youtube exposure/advertising.
And you're mixing words. The OP did cover the use of PvP to "defend," or or disrupt the efforts of PvE activity against a faction. It cannot COUNTER it. The only way to counter a tick of the BGS one way, is to engage in PvE activities that will tick the BGS once in the other direction. Regardless of how much an effort is slowed, if there is enough concentrated effort it will eventually reach it's goal with out any counter-action by the defending group regarding the BGS.
You are correct in the statement that such a defensive effort could deter a groups effort to effect your factions standing negatively completely, however any effect on influence they were able to manage cannot be countered by said deterrence. To move the influence tracker back in the positive direction takes PvE activity.
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It seems we will never know.
A whole PVP clan trying to catch as many underminers as possible would have been a fun thing I guess.
Have you already tried to undermine a system that was at least in some way protected by 50-100 Commanders at the same time?
Me neither. So no one knows, how much this would influence the solo players.
Of course, you could buy a Cobra and run all the time. But even then, you are at least forced to run in a Cobra.
And even Cobras can get in quite some trouble, if chased by some Clippers by the way.
And if you lost your ship multiple times, you may reconsider taking part in this undermining. And you may tell your mates about it... and they may reconsider it too...
If that is the rationale you go with: Yes, I'm afraid you have to let go off your plans for an own faction.
The funny part is that open has nothing to do with it, because following that rationale a group undermining from another gaming platform can't be countered either with your PvP fantasies.
Even more funny: A PVE group wouldn't really care - they might not be able to play in the same instance - they still could play the BGS by defining common targets.
I was here from prior to beta...and did not realize this until the Lugh War. Although many who were there, fighting for either side, would love to see this type of campaign occur again..this was not a Direct PVP brawl...as many thought it would be (myself included!). This was a massive PvE grind fest that nearly burned out those that were invested in it.
It showcased the idea of the game fantastically, however. If you want to influence a system...you have to PvE....PVP, although fun, slowed down the accumulation of the things that truly mattered...war bonds, weapons trading, and the PVE piracy of barrels of intelligence.
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Actually, I have been involved in this type of activity. Unfortunately, the PVP activity detracted from the ability of those playing with us so much that we were forced to remove ourselves from PVP (except for our truly hard core PVP folks) to win the day.
Could that be the... *gasp* mythical "co-operative gameplay" that they talk about in whispers? I mean, sure we've all heard the stories... but noone really BELIEVED them. We all thought it was just bedtime stories you'd tell your kiddies at night... like santa claus, or honest politicians!
And please don't get me wrong over and over... I am not telling, that a PVP Clan solely wants to do PVP.
Its just, that it does not want to do solely PVE. But for defending your faction, thats whats needed.
And as part of a PVP Clan and part of a minor faction - thats what needs to be changed, from a PVP clan perspective.
Its just, that it does not want to do solely PVE. But for defending your faction, thats whats needed.
And as part of a PVP Clan and part of a minor faction - thats what needs to be changed, from a PVP clan perspective.
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<It'll really cook people's noodles when they realize that once they worked to turn their player group into a Power...they basically lose control of that Power to the locusts and the devs!>
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