The FFED3D Thread
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FFE > FFED3D scale?
something that gives me a headake since i started the first model for ffed3d,
the metric scale used in the game.
you will remember, i posted once something like that;
before i was not so shure so o measured by the small building (little house),
it has 2 times 2 windows in a row, or in other words it is two floors high.
i thought by myself, ok one floor is ~3m so the building is 6m high without the roof and i estimated a scale close to the one elite-games.ru published.
but as you can see on the picture above, it is wrong (again),
i checked the viper in blender and put on my metric grid, started to estimate the weight of the ship (10cm thickness for hull). wait there's something wrong,
6'000m3 ?, i estimated a surface of 220m2 with a thickness of 10cm it will be 22t hull only if it's water (specific wt, 1) and no engine, nothing not even the pilots seat. 15 t hull in description 50t cargo if it's water it needs 50m3 space,
if i look at the ship in this size, there must be a lot more space left.
anyway if you look at the ship compared to a human you will see what i mean, the ship's much to big for 65t,
FFED3D scale:
this will give you a better feel of 65t,
FFE scale:
and it fits to the scale on the space station.
what do you think, am i right?
something that gives me a headake since i started the first model for ffed3d,
the metric scale used in the game.
you will remember, i posted once something like that;
before i was not so shure so o measured by the small building (little house),
it has 2 times 2 windows in a row, or in other words it is two floors high.
i thought by myself, ok one floor is ~3m so the building is 6m high without the roof and i estimated a scale close to the one elite-games.ru published.
but as you can see on the picture above, it is wrong (again),
i checked the viper in blender and put on my metric grid, started to estimate the weight of the ship (10cm thickness for hull). wait there's something wrong,
6'000m3 ?, i estimated a surface of 220m2 with a thickness of 10cm it will be 22t hull only if it's water (specific wt, 1) and no engine, nothing not even the pilots seat. 15 t hull in description 50t cargo if it's water it needs 50m3 space,
if i look at the ship in this size, there must be a lot more space left.
anyway if you look at the ship compared to a human you will see what i mean, the ship's much to big for 65t,
FFED3D scale:
this will give you a better feel of 65t,
FFE scale:
and it fits to the scale on the space station.
what do you think, am i right?
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Surely you'd have to take into account not only the volume required for the cargo tonnage but also space for the drive, fuel space, undercarriage, avionics, living quarters, command deck, personal storage, weapons etc... I don't think you can base the size of a ship solely on the tonnage it's going to have to carry. I think the 15Tonne guidline for the mass of the ship is not terribly realistic - I'd be more inclined to go with the size that Steve was going for rather than the game scale. The space station needs to be bigger rather than scaling the ship to fit.
Andrew J. Hodges
Perhaps the P.O. Box is still valid?
You could also try a snail mail!
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Not much info on Web Archive :-(
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Perhaps the P.O. Box is still valid?
You could also try a snail mail!
http://www.startrekmeshes.com/faq.htm
http://www.startrekmeshes.com/devilsworld6/webmaster/index.htm
Also Found this...
http://www.scifi-art.com/info/bio-devil.html
Not much info on Web Archive :-(
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://devil.beyond.net.au
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i didn't scaled the ship, i scaled the scale (the human and the 100m bar), to show the difference and to give a feel of what are 65t (three loadet trucks), the "big" ship could never be 65t, except it is made from wood.
the station is ok i think, i know in the beginning i stand to 100m instead 50m, but i revisited my position, after i took a look at the viper compared to a human.
indeed in the game are a lot of differences in scale allready. compare eagle to kestrel to cobra, if you look at all three in the same scale the kestrel's much to big compared to the cobra and the eagle to small, but will fit to ip shuttle and lifter scales.
but all this can be fixed, if we had a "legal" scale.
buildings in ffe seem all to small compared to the ships, guess why.
i think it's to trick(add) distance, to the view.
the station is ok i think, i know in the beginning i stand to 100m instead 50m, but i revisited my position, after i took a look at the viper compared to a human.
indeed in the game are a lot of differences in scale allready. compare eagle to kestrel to cobra, if you look at all three in the same scale the kestrel's much to big compared to the cobra and the eagle to small, but will fit to ip shuttle and lifter scales.
but all this can be fixed, if we had a "legal" scale.
buildings in ffe seem all to small compared to the ships, guess why.
i think it's to trick(add) distance, to the view.
I think this has been discussed before here, probably in the thread where i showed off the viper.
rescaling all the ships isn't a great idea since combat is a "within visual range" thing in frontier, for the most part.
a better solution is that the mass could be revised for many, if not all ships, giving them all greater capabilities, or making some equipment items heavier to compensate. combat would still be the same.. but overall, i'm not sure anyone really cares that much, or would even notice from simply playing the game.
rescaling all the ships isn't a great idea since combat is a "within visual range" thing in frontier, for the most part.
a better solution is that the mass could be revised for many, if not all ships, giving them all greater capabilities, or making some equipment items heavier to compensate. combat would still be the same.. but overall, i'm not sure anyone really cares that much, or would even notice from simply playing the game.
he was part of the SFM community many years ago, some of the members have been trying to track him down for the last few years, i'm not sure offhand whether they ever found him.
no, i don't wan't to rescale the ships, i just don't feel comfortable with the elite-games scale. original Frontier scale fits better to the size and weight of the models imo, even when some are to big or to small.
a few extra tonnes capacity, yes, but you never will have enough
yes why not, make the shuttle and lifter at least to somewhat useful ships.
a few extra tonnes capacity, yes, but you never will have enough
yes why not, make the shuttle and lifter at least to somewhat useful ships.
no, i don't wan't to rescale the ships, i just don't feel comfortable with the elite-games scale. original Frontier scale fits better to the size and weight of the models imo, even when some are to big or to small.
a few extra tonnes capacity, yes, but you never will have enough
yes why not, make the shuttle and lifter at least to somewhat useful ships.
I wasn't aware there was any difference between the size of a viper or asp or whatever between Frontier and FFE? neither visually or in the listed mass / cargo capacity. a flight of vipers in the bay of a wheel type station looks about as big as it does in the other game iirc, 4 of them comfortably fitting the bay door as it opens, ready to eat hot plasma.... If you mean elite, as in the original game, i really cant comment.
sorry, i should have made it clear; the scale that elite-games.ru published (incl. a ruler model) for FFED3D.
no, i think elite>frontier>ffe are mostly compatible, in this case.
the scale as you see on the space station, fits to most of the ships imho (elite-games.ru stated 100m for it)
50 or 100 that's 1:2
no, i think elite>frontier>ffe are mostly compatible, in this case.
the scale as you see on the space station, fits to most of the ships imho (elite-games.ru stated 100m for it)
50 or 100 that's 1:2
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personally i trust david braben, i guess he must have thought something when he measured the objects, some exceptions to it, like the buildings, are understood (maybe all planets are also to small but you won't recognize).
to make it clear again i just wan't to revert to original scale that's all.
to make it clear again i just wan't to revert to original scale that's all.
i'm just really confused as to what you think the 'original scale' is. my viper is a small amount longer than the original due to the projections on the back, but as far as i know, its basically exactly the same size as the old viper from FFE, which i'm pretty sure is the same size and specification as the one from Frontier. elite games are being careful to ensure that ships are the correct size as far as i know, since changing the sizes might cause problems. I'm not sure what you think is wrong with the buildings either, they look about right considering the large size of the ships.
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i have no problems with your viper, no. it's not the actual size of the models (internal or addet), just the scaling, which should reflect meters in "real" world, that's all.
no, no, i respect you as a very experienced modeler, one can see you know exactly what you want.
i could have taken any other ship to compare, it was just because i saw that little skeleton hidden on your pic. and maybe i like your viper
no, no, i respect you as a very experienced modeler, one can see you know exactly what you want.
i could have taken any other ship to compare, it was just because i saw that little skeleton hidden on your pic.
and maybe i like your viper yep... i realise this is not specifically aimed at my model, and anyway i did not chose the scale of the ship, the game chose that for me.
I'm pretty sure a meter in frontier/ffe/ffed3d has always been a meter, and always represents a real life meter.
if you look at the picture you posted of the ship entering the docking bay, it says "50 metres" which is the height of the bay - like a low clearance sign that you commonly find on bridges and things so tall vehicle drivers know whether or not they can fit under. the viper is around 40 meters long and 30 meters wide. if you flip the ship up end inside the bay and fiddle with the outside view, you can see it takes up about 4/5ths of the height of the bay, which is what we would expect.
maybe things in frontier and even more detailed models as in ffed3d dont look as large in scale as they should, but there's little in the way of small detail to convey that and give you a true sense of scale, so its a little shocking when you see a direct reference, like the skeleton you see in my one pic... which changes your view on these ships that you thought you were completely familiar with, i had the same feeling myself... you will get used to it.
I'm pretty sure a meter in frontier/ffe/ffed3d has always been a meter, and always represents a real life meter.
if you look at the picture you posted of the ship entering the docking bay, it says "50 metres" which is the height of the bay - like a low clearance sign that you commonly find on bridges and things so tall vehicle drivers know whether or not they can fit under. the viper is around 40 meters long and 30 meters wide. if you flip the ship up end inside the bay and fiddle with the outside view, you can see it takes up about 4/5ths of the height of the bay, which is what we would expect.
maybe things in frontier and even more detailed models as in ffed3d dont look as large in scale as they should, but there's little in the way of small detail to convey that and give you a true sense of scale, so its a little shocking when you see a direct reference, like the skeleton you see in my one pic... which changes your view on these ships that you thought you were completely familiar with, i had the same feeling myself... you will get used to it.
another example with another ship, the adder, 55t.
FFED3D ruler:
FFE ruler:
i build the model according to the FFED3D ruler, that's why the details fit better in the upper pic, but else.....
edit after your last post, you're right.
and i'm wrong.
but still the adder looks also oversized for 55t, imo.
FFED3D ruler:
FFE ruler:
i build the model according to the FFED3D ruler, that's why the details fit better in the upper pic, but else.....
edit after your last post, you're right.
and i'm wrong.
but still the adder looks also oversized for 55t, imo.
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the more i look at my own creation the less i believe that i'm right.
the first intention is allways the right one, hm (it was when i looked at the smallest building, and counted the floors).
the first intention is allways the right one, hm (it was when i looked at the smallest building, and counted the floors).
if you start your model by importing the old geometry from FFE then you can't go wrong so far as scale goes, as long as you set up your units correctly, but that should only involve multiplying or dividing by a multiple of ten and the correct size should be clear.
The mass is i think fudged, as i said before... specifically on purpose to skew the capabilities of the smaller ships yet keep them large enough to be able to shoot at, or even see.. much smaller and many pirate ships in the original ffe would have never resolved to be any bigger than a pixel due to the low res screen mode.
now if you started changing the mass values, you have a big impact on the balance of the game and combat and how you progress through the game, suddenly starting with much more cargo capacity would make a huge difference.
now lets consider why they could be reasonable figures:
1, cargo capacity is based on mass, not volume. you might have a lot of something really heavy but thats as much as the ship can lift so your bays might be vast, and largely empty, but another ton of weight and you cant take off.
of course as the game simply models it, the mass of the craft is always observed to be constant despite the amount of equipment or cargo on board... an unloaded craft should leap off the pad with little power, whereas a fully loaded ship would creak and moan, and shudder and shake its way slowly up into orbit at full blast... instead, performance as far as i can tell is exactly the same.
if this were modelled in more detail then it would make a huge difference to being a pirate or a trader, you wouldn't make it off certain worlds with a heavy load, and on some you could overload it.. mass is irrelevant really, it just means you need to expend more energy to move it around and in certain conditions would have to avoid certain gravity wells.
maybe you could only pack on board 30 tons of pillows, or, i dunno, fresh cabbage. something with a fairly low density, but takes up a lot of room alternatively you could probably load up the viper with 400 tons of plutonium or something heavy, right, with a high density, thats the important part. it would fit in the hull but it wouldn't blast off from earth, but you could move it around slowly in space, and grud help you if you crash. All of this kind of thing is really sketched over in FFE and its prequels, i see no signs that FFED3D are going to address either...
of course i dont really know what 400 tons of plutonium, or 30 tons of pillows really looks like... so my figures there could be off
2, scifimaterials, these can be extremely strong or even very large, but very lightweight.. how do you know the hull isnt mainly a low density foam, several meters thick? it says nowhere in the game about the ships construction or materials, so lets assume its constructed in a way that takes up a lot of room, more so than an airliners hull, but weighs a fraction of a conventional construction.
3, large but lightweight hyperdrives... rather than being a small and dense unit, perhaps these are quite big taking up much of the ship, but dont weigh much, maybe they have a large amount of empty space inside.
The mass is i think fudged, as i said before... specifically on purpose to skew the capabilities of the smaller ships yet keep them large enough to be able to shoot at, or even see.. much smaller and many pirate ships in the original ffe would have never resolved to be any bigger than a pixel due to the low res screen mode.
now if you started changing the mass values, you have a big impact on the balance of the game and combat and how you progress through the game, suddenly starting with much more cargo capacity would make a huge difference.
now lets consider why they could be reasonable figures:
1, cargo capacity is based on mass, not volume. you might have a lot of something really heavy but thats as much as the ship can lift so your bays might be vast, and largely empty, but another ton of weight and you cant take off.
of course as the game simply models it, the mass of the craft is always observed to be constant despite the amount of equipment or cargo on board... an unloaded craft should leap off the pad with little power, whereas a fully loaded ship would creak and moan, and shudder and shake its way slowly up into orbit at full blast... instead, performance as far as i can tell is exactly the same.
if this were modelled in more detail then it would make a huge difference to being a pirate or a trader, you wouldn't make it off certain worlds with a heavy load, and on some you could overload it.. mass is irrelevant really, it just means you need to expend more energy to move it around and in certain conditions would have to avoid certain gravity wells.
maybe you could only pack on board 30 tons of pillows, or, i dunno, fresh cabbage. something with a fairly low density, but takes up a lot of room alternatively you could probably load up the viper with 400 tons of plutonium or something heavy, right, with a high density, thats the important part. it would fit in the hull but it wouldn't blast off from earth, but you could move it around slowly in space, and grud help you if you crash.
All of this kind of thing is really sketched over in FFE and its prequels, i see no signs that FFED3D are going to address either... of course i dont really know what 400 tons of plutonium, or 30 tons of pillows really looks like... so my figures there could be off
2, scifimaterials, these can be extremely strong or even very large, but very lightweight.. how do you know the hull isnt mainly a low density foam, several meters thick? it says nowhere in the game about the ships construction or materials, so lets assume its constructed in a way that takes up a lot of room, more so than an airliners hull, but weighs a fraction of a conventional construction.
3, large but lightweight hyperdrives... rather than being a small and dense unit, perhaps these are quite big taking up much of the ship, but dont weigh much, maybe they have a large amount of empty space inside.
So to sum up a lengthy post, really then if you think the masses need changing, well really its the whole way that the ships mass is not dynamically modelled thats the big problem.
Essentially cargo capacity in the real world is worked out by volume as well as mass but the elite games only consider mass.
And the other big simplification is the constant 'g' rating of engines. the maximum 'g' force one can achieve in a given ship should be a result of mass * thrust... F=ma, right? or i guess more specifically mf=a or something.
I expect this was too complex to model, or to fit into a game which had to run in a miniscule amount of ram and was gigantic already, but today with the backengineered rewrites, it should be perfectly possble to address this.
Essentially cargo capacity in the real world is worked out by volume as well as mass but the elite games only consider mass.
And the other big simplification is the constant 'g' rating of engines. the maximum 'g' force one can achieve in a given ship should be a result of mass * thrust... F=ma, right? or i guess more specifically mf=a or something.
I expect this was too complex to model, or to fit into a game which had to run in a miniscule amount of ram and was gigantic already, but today with the backengineered rewrites, it should be perfectly possble to address this.
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of course you gain weight with every g of acceleration as long as you accelerate and the limit will be the max acceleration of the engine, the mass has reached then the max. of what the engine can handle and there is no further accelaration, in the same direction. if i don't fail completely you have to invest for each g to achieve, the doubled power. but as long as you specify the engine by max. of g accel. we don't have to care how much energy that would cost. if we reach max. acceleration it will tend to infinite, you will only burn your fuel and nothing happens.
right?