The fundamental problem with making Powerplay Open-Only.

[DemiserofD]

And I think Powerplay is the place for negative player interaction- i.e. PvP encounters. It has its own C+P, systems all isolated enough to offer it in a way that does not affect the wider game too much.

You also forget ED is not supposed to be 'nice'- it has 'negative player interactions' as an advertisement when you buy it. You also gloss over Powers are teams and not competitive within themselves (that is, they help each other out)- how is that not positive? They don't go out and kill everything on sight, but the things the feature requires as well. How is that not positive, and a way to have conflicts in a game building way?



I can't argue against better communication tools, but its pointless when the best (Discord) out of the game already exists. Many parts of the game already use out of game tools, I can't see FD changing that. Winging up is easy now, you just ask them. New pledges just have to do that, or ask on Discord (like they do).



I simply don't understand what you are actually suggesting, since it already exists- Discord Groups, Power groups, its just you feel that Open is evil and therefore anything which exists now in Open is not working. My problem is that Powerplay does not work across modes for the reasons I told you repeatedly about. With what FD have offered to change Open is the only thing that evens that out. I hope they change more, but until they offer to do so thats all we have.

I think it's a profound mistake to rely on out of game tools as a crucial part of a central aspect of the game. But that's the way things currently are; if you don't heavily invest in out of game resources and communities, there's very little chance you'll be able to meaningfully interact with ingame communities in a successful manner. Not unless you're so lucky as to randomly stumble upon a leader of a powerplay faction early in your time playing.

Especially since many of these tools only come to relevance when players are already looking for them. A huge part of the purpose of having these tools ingame is to prompt players into more player interaction. After all, I'm not going to go look up a facebook group and join their discord server just to learn the particulars of their social lives, but I may idly read through the recent bulletin board posts to learn what my nominal power is up to, if it's available and accessible ingame.

It basically comes down to this; you don't play in solo or pg's to avoid playing together with other like-minded players, you do so to avoid playing with players who are going to kill you.

And if this is already your mindset, then a gamemode that only serves to make it easier for you to get killed is going to be 100% unappealing to you. The purpose of that gamemode must expand to also encourage and facilitate positive interactions, like making it easier to wing together with strangers, or to communicate with other players within your Power.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think it's a profound mistake to rely on out of game tools as a crucial part of a central aspect of the game. But that's the way things currently are; if you don't heavily invest in out of game resources and communities, there's very little chance you'll be able to meaningfully interact with ingame communities in a successful manner. Not unless you're so lucky as to randomly stumble upon a leader of a powerplay faction early in your time playing.

Especially since many of these tools only come to relevance when players are already looking for them. A huge part of the purpose of having these tools ingame is to prompt players into more player interaction. After all, I'm not going to go look up a facebook group and join their discord server just to learn the particulars of their social lives, but I may idly read through the recent bulletin board posts to learn what my nominal power is up to, if it's available and accessible ingame.

It basically comes down to this; you don't play in solo or pg's to avoid playing together with other like-minded players, you do so to avoid playing with players who are going to kill you.

And if this is already your mindset, then a gamemode that only serves to make it easier for you to get killed is going to be 100% unappealing to you. The purpose of that gamemode must expand to also encourage and facilitate positive interactions, like making it easier to wing together with strangers, or to communicate with other players within your Power.

The problem is for something like Powerplay you need something on the complexity of Discord. The average group has about eight channels, requires moderation tools, low overhead- ED can barely stay together as it is with FCs, how can it with an additional layer?

And when can they interact? For Powerplay its chatting out of game and planning, then in game it boils down to 'wing up, I'm here, switch on beacon'. The interaction is when you are playing, your ship and actions are doing the talking. Plus, you already have the tools in Powerplay to see exactly how your power is doing anyway, in station, PP UI tab and the galaxy map.

It basically comes down to this; you don't play in solo or pg's to avoid playing together with other like-minded players, you do so to avoid playing with players who are going to kill you.

Which, in a feature where you can keep a rival power afloat in complete safety is a problem. Like I've said repeatedly, if the NPCs were highly aggressive and filled the gap in solo or PG that would be enough- but they aren't, and without structural reform of drop zones, NAV points etc its not going to change.

You still labour under the misunderstanding haulers are sheep that are abandoned to die in Powerplay. You also don't see that the game is you chancing your luck and using your skills of evasion against others who want to stop you- haulers can choose faster ships, learn how to evade, and work as a team to get through. Is that not positive? In the end its your fear of losing and being destroyed that prevents you from seeing that, in a game where killing is not wrong, in a feature you opt into.

Bluntly: you don't see competitive teams as positives- but thats what Powerplay is, competitive teams. Even up the modes, or make one mode 'it'.

 

[K7Hyperion]

You still labour under the misunderstanding haulers are sheep that are abandoned to die in Powerplay.

I think he's stuck on this. Wants that cushy safe PP experience where combat or danger is absent

It basically comes down to this; you don't play in solo or pg's to avoid playing together with other like-minded players, you do so to avoid playing with players who are going to kill you.

And if this is already your mindset, then a gamemode that only serves to make it easier for you to get killed is going to be 100% unappealing to you.

As it should be, don't play it then. FDev is designing a consumable product that is meant to appeal to the broadest range of the public base as possible. Not every gameplay mode is meant for everyone. If one wants to safely haul 90% of the time, this is easily achievable outside of powerplay. What's the difference in gameplay experience and satisfaction between delivering 5336 units of tea across the bubble, vs. delivering a cargohold of arbitrary PP items that make a system's ticker go up? Especially, when one removes the competitive player interactions ("I could be killed!") from the latter? I'm actually looking for someone to reply to these questions because I just don't get it (but can understand that for whatever reason its your jam, then all the power to you).

But the lamentation of those folk is not a strong enough argument for why the future PP overhaul should not be competitive-based at heart.

Of people that are capital-C Consistent PP haulers today (meaning this is the primary reason they boot up the game) that are completely Combat-averse ("this mercenary wild-west setting that FDev has clearly advertised the game as, is just not for me"), will be dwarfed by multiple orders of magnitude by the extensive player base that is salivating for an overhauled 100% competitive PP overhaul. FDev has proven how quickly and how well they can weave events into the ongoing narrative of the universe (mining nerf & combat bounty buff). Galnet already has hourly reports on Powerplay that are not quite meaningful. Just imagine the appeal of a player-driven, story-backed, competitive gameplay experience.

"Gather your friends, muster your squadron, pledge your loyalty, and reshape the political borders of the galaxy in your spaceships (whether its through combat or hauling)."

It practically markets itself...

 

[DemiserofD]

The problem is for something like Powerplay you need something on the complexity of Discord. The average group has about eight channels, requires moderation tools, low overhead- ED can barely stay together as it is with FCs, how can it with an additional layer?

And when can they interact? For Powerplay its chatting out of game and planning, then in game it boils down to 'wing up, I'm here, switch on beacon'. The interaction is when you are playing, your ship and actions are doing the talking. Plus, you already have the tools in Powerplay to see exactly how your power is doing anyway, in station, PP UI tab and the galaxy map.

Come now, don't act like the powerplay UI isn't 100% inscrutable to someone who's never been taught how to use it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that discord servers and subreddits have their place, but they're for more invested commanders, who already have a stake in the game. What the game lacks are ways to get players through the door in the first place. This is just like the current iteration of wings, for example; they work just great...with people you already know. But they do nothing to get you to meet and know those people in the first place.

My dream scenario would be something like this. At a station, in the mission board, you can click a button called 'available wing missions'. Inside, are a second list of wing missions that have been posted publicly by other players. You click 'join' on one, and a little warning dialogue pops up saying "Caution, taking this mission will move you into Open. Open is a dangerous place where hostile players can and will kill you. Only join if you think the rewards justify the risks!"

Then you click yes, it automatically connects you to Open and plops you into the Wing, and you can start doing the mission right from there!

Likewise, the bulletin board wouldn't be for discussing complex strategy, it would just be for stuff like, "This week, we are focusing on the following systems: xx, yy, zz, kk. Together we can take them for the glory of the empire! If you like being part of our team and want to see more, check out our subreddit!"

Simple features to get players experiencing the positive aspects of Open.

Which, in a feature where you can keep a rival power afloat in complete safety is a problem. Like I've said repeatedly, if the NPCs were highly aggressive and filled the gap in solo or PG that would be enough- but they aren't, and without structural reform of drop zones, NAV points etc its not going to change.

You still labour under the misunderstanding haulers are sheep that are abandoned to die in Powerplay. You also don't see that the game is you chancing your luck and using your skills of evasion against others who want to stop you- haulers can choose faster ships, learn how to evade, and work as a team to get through. Is that not positive? In the end its your fear of losing and being destroyed that prevents you from seeing that, in a game where killing is not wrong, in a feature you opt into.

Bluntly: you don't see competitive teams as positives- but thats what Powerplay is, competitive teams. Even up the modes, or make one mode 'it'.

The trouble is, your 'positives' aren't positives for the haulers. You keep saying that haulers aren't sheep, yet you keep insisting on wanting to be a wolf. You cannot deny that in an oopp scenario, the haulers will be 100% at the mercy of the combat players. If the haulers want to keep hauling, they are the only ones who must make sacrifices, not the combat players. They must change their loadouts, they must always seek out an escort just to play the game. Combat players can already undermine just fine, which I think is perfectly fair. Who says you have a right to kill enemy players?

As I've said since the very beginning, it is shifting power 100% to the combat side of things, and once again I ask, why is that any better than the current situation? To YOU it's better, because you like combat, but why are your preferences relevant? What about the players who enjoy positive competition?

I absolutely think that competitive teams are a great thing. I just don't think being able to kill each other is any more valuable, intrinsically, than being able to haul against one another. And I don't see how shifting that balance of power makes anything better for anyone but the combat players.

(I won't bother talking about or responding to your NPC desires anymore, because what you want is impossible to code. And, again, I mean literally impossible. You can't simulate pvp players without actual AI, which isn't very realistic to expect fdev to create any time soon.)

 

[DemiserofD]

I think he's stuck on this. Wants that cushy safe PP experience where combat or danger is absent


As it should be, don't play it then. FDev is designing a consumable product that is meant to appeal to the broadest range of the public base as possible. Not every gameplay mode is meant for everyone. If one wants to safely haul 90% of the time, this is easily achievable outside of powerplay. What's the difference in gameplay experience and satisfaction between delivering 5336 units of tea across the bubble, vs. delivering a cargohold of arbitrary PP items that make a system's ticker go up? Especially, when one removes the competitive player interactions ("I could be killed!") from the latter? I'm actually looking for someone to reply to these questions because I just don't get it (but can understand that for whatever reason its your jam, then all the power to you).

But the lamentation of those folk is not a strong enough argument for why the future PP overhaul should not be competitive-based at heart.

Of people that are capital-C Consistent PP haulers today (meaning this is the primary reason they boot up the game) that are completely Combat-averse ("this mercenary wild-west setting that FDev has clearly advertised the game as, is just not for me"), will be dwarfed by multiple orders of magnitude by the extensive player base that is salivating for an overhauled 100% competitive PP overhaul. FDev has proven how quickly and how well they can weave events into the ongoing narrative of the universe (mining nerf & combat bounty buff). Galnet already has hourly reports on Powerplay that are not quite meaningful. Just imagine the appeal of a player-driven, story-backed, competitive gameplay experience.

"Gather your friends, muster your squadron, pledge your loyalty, and reshape the political borders of the galaxy in your spaceships (whether its through combat or hauling)."

It practically markets itself...

Except, again, the Haulers won't be there, because they quit the instant it went to Open Only.

So instead it's "Gather your squadron and ineffectually search for helpless haulers to kill, except oh wait, they're not here. Wander around for a while looking for targets. Nothing here, either. Hmm. Guess I'll log for the night, guys, see ya tomorrow." - last seen 9 months ago.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Come now, don't act like the powerplay UI isn't 100% inscrutable to someone who's never been taught how to use it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that discord servers and subreddits have their place, but they're for more invested commanders, who already have a stake in the game. What the game lacks are ways to get players through the door in the first place. This is just like the current iteration of wings, for example; they work just great...with people you already know. But they do nothing to get you to meet and know those people in the first place.

My dream scenario would be something like this. At a station, in the mission board, you can click a button called 'available wing missions'. Inside, are a second list of wing missions that have been posted publicly by other players. You click 'join' on one, and a little warning dialogue pops up saying "Caution, taking this mission will move you into Open. Open is a dangerous place where hostile players can and will kill you. Only join if you think the rewards justify the risks!"

Then you click yes, it automatically connects you to Open and plops you into the Wing, and you can start doing the mission right from there!

Likewise, the bulletin board wouldn't be for discussing complex strategy, it would just be for stuff like, "This week, we are focusing on the following systems: xx, yy, zz, kk. Together we can take them for the glory of the empire! If you like being part of our team and want to see more, check out our subreddit!"

Simple features to get players experiencing the positive aspects of Open.

While an ingame board would be great, its time has really come and gone (if you look carefully in the early Powerplay sizzle reels you'll see references to PP missions and a board, but nothing came of them- at least not yet). Plus, FCs do this at a low level right now and so do squadrons. I agree they need more synergy, but they are there. The same can be said for pledging- it can do what you ask simply by having a mode like caveat when you OK it- "you will be actively hunted by other players" sort of thing.

The trouble is, your 'positives' aren't positives for the haulers. You keep saying that haulers aren't sheep, yet you keep insisting on wanting to be a wolf.

Where have I said that? The comments I have left were of me being all roles- smaller powers players do it all and I've played in small powers all my time with powerplay.

You cannot deny that in an oopp scenario, the haulers will be 100% at the mercy of the combat players.

Unless you fly like a spoon and fly a ship thats super compromised, then not really. It also comes down to tactics and a pinch of luck- as it should be, surely? This is where ineffectual NPCs have distorted peoples perceptions about opposition.

If the haulers want to keep hauling, they are the only ones who must make sacrifices, not the combat players. They must change their loadouts, they must always seek out an escort just to play the game. Combat players can already undermine just fine, which I think is perfectly fair. Who says you have a right to kill enemy players?

You seem to think PP roles are binary. In my power people do everything- haul, fight, do a little of both at the same time.

Who says you have a right to kill enemy players?

Because Powerplay is a game about rivalry, thats why, in a game where killing is not wrong. If it stops the opposition, then its fair game. Powerplay is not hand holding or showing mercy to someone else who is actively working against you.

As I've said since the very beginning, it is shifting power 100% to the combat side of things, and once again I ask, why is that any better than the current situation? To YOU it's better, because you like combat, but why are your preferences relevant? What about the players who enjoy positive competition?

Because it makes fortifying uncertain- it makes hauling much more risky and that powers can't rely on safe hauling. Right now you can know down to the hour when fortification can be done. What if you could not plan that exactly? How would that alter your weekly work? Suddenly you have to think on your feet, rather than order consolidation repeatedly.

I absolutely think that competitive teams are a great thing. I just don't think being able to kill each other is any more valuable, intrinsically, than being able to haul against one another. And I don't see how shifting that balance of power makes anything better for anyone but the combat players.

Powerplay should be about uncertainty and dynamically shifting situations. Right now none of that is possible because NPCs don't do squat, and players have access to easy, efficient merit hauling. Either players attack others to disrupt this, or NPCs do, otherwise defence is like clockwork each week, and conventional attacks pointless.

(I won't bother talking about or responding to your NPC desires anymore, because what you want is impossible to code. And, again, I mean literally impossible. You can't simulate pvp players without actual AI, which isn't very realistic to expect fdev to create any time soon.)

You don't have to, I posted several ideas a few pages back which would help, along with giving roving PP NPCs engineering.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Except, again, the Haulers won't be there, because they quit the instant it went to Open Only.

So instead it's "Gather your squadron and ineffectually search for helpless haulers to kill, except oh wait, they're not here. Wander around for a while looking for targets. Nothing here, either. Hmm. Guess I'll log for the night, guys, see ya tomorrow." - last seen 9 months ago.

Except that Sandros proposed changes condense action down to your capitals via unified fort direction, and uncap UM (meaning fortification does not stop unless attacks stop, meaning people have to visit that place). It also means prep sites and expansions are hot zones too.

Except, again, the Haulers won't be there, because they quit the instant it went to Open Only.

In your opinion.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

At Winters, we're an open-only hauling power. Guess what, imperial PvPers also play in open hunting our haulers. Guess what else, we also don't quit.

More tools sure fine - more warning of what you're getting into and the full implications and ramifications of pledging, great. But the evaporating haulers, not so sure. If they're so worried, just stick to preps. And try occasional forts and more when ready.

 

[K7Hyperion]

My dream scenario would be something like this. At a station, in the mission board, you can click a button called 'available wing missions'. Inside, are a second list of wing missions that have been posted publicly by other players. You click 'join' on one, and a little warning dialogue pops up saying "Caution, taking this mission will move you into Open. Open is a dangerous place where hostile players can and will kill you. Only join if you think the risks justify the rewards!"

This is a great idea.

You cannot deny that in an oopp scenario, the haulers will be 100% at the mercy of the combat players.

Under a powerplay redesign, they should be. Haul outside of powerplay in solo if you don't want this experience.

If the haulers want to keep hauling, they are the only ones who must make sacrifices, not the combat players.

Its like in any well balanced multi-role team-based game, your chosen role dictates the extent of what you can and cannot do. If I'm playing as a Medic in an FPS I do not have the ability to lay down the effective suppressing fire of a light machine gun, but I can heal my teammates. If I am a scout character, I have increased agility/speed but lack the health/armor to withstand a prolonged conflict. If I am a demolition expert and can plant a bomb to destroy an objective, perhaps I have increased health but a lower movement speed. The teamplay of multiple roles coming together to accomplish an objective (plant the bomb, capture the flag, destroy the other team) is what makes these experiences fun, and precisely why they are so popular.

Again, assuming we are strictly discussing a future state overhauled competitive powerplay. The combat players do not have any direct significant way to increase system influence and advance the objective, that power lies with the haulers. The trade off is that the 100% pure cargo Type 9 haulers doesn't have the capability to defend itself or engage with a combat boat. So yes, compromise is required by the solo player to increase their viability - if they are choosing not to engage with the objective with their team. Either abandon the current meta of shieldless 790Tn hauler for a hybrid combat vessel (320Tn hauling Corvette/Cutter/Anaconda) as I mentioned yesterday, seek the protection of an Combat escort (which will be simple to obtain, as we assume the proper matchmaking tools in place to facilitate it in-game), or at the very least outfit the Type9 to evade and escape (ECM, Chaff, Point Defense, Mine launchers - its not like it isn't possible at the moment, its just that no one specs for this because it isn't a requirement in solo play, everyone just stacks shield boosters to protect against NPCs OR just easily escape interdiction attempts).

I'm of the opinion that a competitive powerplay redesign should have that team-based focus, with the players determining what roles are required to effectively achieve the objective (coordinated via that in-game matchmaking feature - players should be able to share ship builds when the matchmake for wings -, vs. the developer restricting preset classes for you to select. Hauling-minded players that want to compete for the chosen objective of their factions can choose how to outfit themselves to make that happen (hybrid builds, establishment of a new meta, new viability of defensive modules). Combat-minded players similarly decide how they want to contribute (escort haulers to run blockades, defend control systems via blockades, set up with Torpedo pylons to nullify a single ship, run a balanced pvp build to engage multiple players, etc.).

If combat players do not want to PVP? Plenty of opportunity in solo, outside of competitive Powerplay, to make that happen. If hauling players do not want to be interdicted/attacked and simply make their trading routes? Plenty of opportunity in solo, outside of competitive Powerplay, to make that happen.

they must always seek out an escort just to play the game.

I feel like I addressed this above.

Who says you have a right to kill enemy players?

FDev does. The galaxy just got FSDs in 3297, NINE YEARS AGO. This is like when the English arrived to North America in the 1600s - the whole continent was open for exploration and settlement. With the increased freedom, vast landmass to settle, and a lack of a permanent effective police force outside of the major city hubs, the great FRONTIER was the "WILD WEST". Kill or be killed was the only rule of law. You would have been stupid to run a trading caravan from city to city without any way to defend yourself.

FDev has quoted multiple times that this frontier setting was a key focalpoint during development. They wanted to create a game that modelled a galactic wild west, as humanity stretched its legs outside of the solar systems settled by the traditional-drive generation ships. It was always meant to be lawless, where pirates and mercenary bands were always a threat, and where system authorities were in a constant state of trying to maintain order (just like the Sheriffs in the olden days).

Hell, they called the game Elite: DANGEROUS, for a reason.

But hey, if that's not your cup of tea? No worries, they thought of that and gave you Solo Play so you can cruise the galaxy in relative peace.

But just because its not your cup of tea, doesn't mean that you have a claim against Powerplay becoming a true competitive game mode that I think the majority of players, both old and new, who love competitive gameplay and flying spaceships would fall in love with.

 

[Elliot Coleman]

Don't get me wrong, I think that discord servers and subreddits have their place, but they're for more invested commanders, who already have a stake in the game. What the game lacks are ways to get players through the door in the first place. This is just like the current iteration of wings, for example; they work just great...with people you already know. But they do nothing to get you to meet and know those people in the first place.

If you're gaming in multiplayer and you aren't already using discord, then you're a casual and power play isn't going to be a good fit for you anyway.

The trouble is, your 'positives' aren't positives for the haulers. You keep saying that haulers aren't sheep, yet you keep insisting on wanting to be a wolf. You cannot deny that in an oopp scenario, the haulers will be 100% at the mercy of the combat players. If the haulers want to keep hauling, they are the only ones who must make sacrifices, not the combat players. They must change their loadouts, they must always seek out an escort just to play the game. Combat players can already undermine just fine, which I think is perfectly fair. Who says you have a right to kill enemy players?

How to build a shield tank that will give you the MJ to survive an interdiction:

1) Fit the biggest shield you can, A-rated
2) Fit all your utility slots with shield boosters (well, maybe save one for chaff...maybe)

That's it. Man...that is just....so much sacrifice. Where on earth will players put their cargo?

 

[K7Hyperion]

Except, again, the Haulers won't be there, because they quit the instant it went to Open Only.

They would simply see the appeal of the new game mode, or be replaced by a cohort of new players. Also, you are assuming that all haulers share your singular mindset vs. trying to understand what would be most appealing to the masses. This is a fundamental mistake if we are discussing what Powerplay COULD be.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

When Powerplay first came in (1.3), I tried it for about a month and absolutely hated it. It seemed to me just to be a Postman Pat simulator which was just ground out for unique modules. However, at the beginning of the year, I thought it would give it a second try and this time round, having got involved with a group and a squadron that has a requirement to play in open only; I've gone a complete 180 on it. I've spent more time on my powerplay Alt this year, than I have with my main commander (which is why I don't have a fleet carrier).

It means a complete change of mindset as far as delivering powerplay goods to a target. You have to think of yourself as a blockade runner / smuggler, not a standard trade vessel. This means you have to have a ship build that can outrun and escape from other player that can interdict you and it's added an extra dimension to the game. Add to that the social side of it where I can report enemy players to my discord and they come running to either defend or, more likey, avenge me (Or give me an escort ) and where players got to a great effort to work out what the best systems are to fortify, expand to or prepare.

I don't believe that a totally open model is the solution, not while the powerplay rewards/ benefits are in place. Players who can't get into open for some reason (Bad connection, console players without xbox live or playstation network, etc), should still be allowed to play in some form. Either Open Players get far greater powerplay credits / rewards or the Expansion and Control sections move over to Open Only, because these are tug of war type contests, and the Preparation remains a mode for anyone, because this is more like your standard fill the bucket the CG).

Sandro's post about the proposals to powerplay (so long ago now) would have helped with the 5C problem. However, frontier haven't done anything, we know of, about the bot commanders who hide in solo and can manipulate the entire BPPS (Background Power-Play Sim) to the detriment of the game. It's a pity Sandro moved on because I feel he was the only person that was banging the drum for powerplay and I would have preferred them to have fixed PP before they implemented the changes for the BGS. They've said that powerplay will get a look at after Odyssey but it has been years without a change, so I'm slightly sceptical.

 

[DemiserofD]

Aaaand we're back to massive quote chains again. Great.

How about this, a simple question:

Why is competitive hauling any less competitive than competitive combat?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Aaaand we're back to massive quote chains again. Great.

Well, you wanted an answer, people gave it.

How about this, a simple question:

Why is competitive hauling any less competitive than competitive combat?

The answer varies.

Powerplay fortifying is not competitive in solo- unless the power is asleep its almost a given its best systems will be fortified each week. There is no way to slow or stop it, leading to a situation where you can never endanger these systems.

The only time it becomes a competition is with prep races or expansions- and even then its dull because you can never slow the opposition directly, just outpace them- which means only those with deep pockets can really compete.

Your only tool is distract via UM, but with consolidation and BGS farming plus easy fortification that can't be stopped its quite often pointless.

The line blurs in open, because competitive hauling is up against competitive combat directly.

 

[lefty1117]

Did not read the whole thread, but am quite familiar with this discussion. I guess for me I've never really heard a reason why, rather than making it Open Only, they can't do something like incentivize players into Open. For example, perhaps garrison supplies are a bit cheaper to purchase in Open mode. Etc. I like the concept of the game appealing to as many playstyles and customer tastes as possible, but surely the higher risk behavior, ie playing in Open, could be configured to be a bit more rewarding.

One thing I'm really curious about is whether Odyssey will bring anything new to Powerplay. For example will there be on-foot PP missions we can work on? Maybe FPS combat zones? Will we ever see PP missions on the mission board?

 

[DemiserofD]

Well, you wanted an answer, people gave it.

What people need to realize is that if you give 15 different answers, it makes it impossible to respond in any cohesive manner, and the entire discussion collapses under its own weight.

Take a moment, slow down, formulate a unified statement. That way the argument actually gets somewhere rather than spiraling forever.

The answer varies.

Powerplay fortifying is not competitive in solo- unless the power is asleep its almost a given its best systems will be fortified each week. There is no way to slow or stop it, leading to a situation where you can never endanger these systems.

The only time it becomes a competition is with prep races or expansions- and even then its dull because you can never slow the opposition directly, just outpace them- which means only those with deep pockets can really compete.

Your only tool is distract via UM, but with consolidation and BGS farming plus easy fortification that can't be stopped its quite often pointless.

The line blurs in open, because competitive hauling is up against competitive combat directly.

You can't separate out related aspects of an activity and claim that, say, one is boring when there are multiple aspects you're ignoring, or that fortifying never fails when you ignore undermining. That's cherrypicking of the highest order.

The fact is, it's perfectly competitive as things currently stand. The opponent can haul, and you can haul against them. No, you can't kill them, but they also can't kill you, so again, that's perfectly fair and balanced.

In no way, shape, or form is direct combat with enemy players a requirement for competition.

 

[Rubbernuke]

What people need to realize is that if you give 15 different answers, it makes it impossible to respond in any cohesive manner, and the entire discussion collapses under its own weight.

Take a moment, slow down, formulate a unified statement. That way the argument actually gets somewhere rather than spiraling forever.

Sadly with Powerplay no answer is simple, and detail matters.

You can't separate out related aspects of an activity and claim that, say, one is boring when there are multiple aspects you're ignoring, or that fortifying never fails when you ignore undermining. That's cherrypicking of the highest order.

The fact is, it's perfectly competitive as things currently stand. The opponent can haul, and you can haul against them. No, you can't kill them, but they also can't kill you, so again, that's perfectly fair and balanced.

In no way, shape, or form is direct combat with enemy players a requirement for competition.

Were you even reading what I wrote? I just explained how trying to fight a rival fortifying in solo is not competitive. Please, just read it.

Also, how is it balanced when a power can lower its fort triggers, raise its UM triggers and fortify in total safety to a set limit and be 'safe' and the opposition can do nothing about it? Once to 100% you can't do anything else, and each power knows which systems need to be fortified to mathematically be impregnable. That is not balanced.

Its why weaponised expansions are used, because its the only offensive move left on an exhausted gameboard- you can't attack directly, so you have to literally shoot yourself in the foot to mathematically strike back.

In blind prep races it forces you to either outbid them (by either overlapping systems, or that system itself) and then what? You are left with a system expansion you don't want. If you gamble and try to oppose in the expansion phase, you have the same problem again where its a blind race.

multiple aspects you're ignoring

I'd love an elaboration on this, because I don't see what you are getting at.

 

[DemiserofD]

Sadly with Powerplay no answer is simple, and detail matters.



Were you even reading what I wrote? I just explained how trying to fight a rival fortifying in solo is not competitive. Please, just read it.

Also, how is it balanced when a power can lower its fort triggers, raise its UM triggers and fortify in total safety to a set limit and be 'safe' and the opposition can do nothing about it? Once to 100% you can't do anything else, and each power knows which systems need to be fortified to mathematically be impregnable. That is not balanced.

Its why weaponised expansions are used, because its the only offensive move left on an exhausted gameboard- you can't attack directly, so you have to literally shoot yourself in the foot to mathematically strike back.

In blind prep races it forces you to either outbid them (by either overlapping systems, or that system itself) and then what? You are left with a system expansion you don't want. If you gamble and try to oppose in the expansion phase, you have the same problem again where its a blind race.



I'd love an elaboration on this, because I don't see what you are getting at.

If the problem is that it becomes impossible to overcome a fortification, then either the system is working exactly as intended, and this is the desired result(IE, they don't want people to keep dragging a system into endless defense), or that system needs to be altered to make undermining more practical.(for example, with different caps and limits)

Alternatively, you need to reconsider your attack parameters and attack multiple systems, for example.

But none of this implies that open only would fix this 'problem', or that the system is not competitive. The ability for defenders to win doesn't make it not competitive, it just means they won the competition.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If the problem is that it becomes impossible to overcome a fortification, then either the system is working exactly as intended, and this is the desired result(IE, they don't want people to keep dragging a system into endless defense), or that system needs to be altered to make undermining more practical.(for example, with different caps and limits)

Multi mode Powerplay is about maths. If you read Sandro Sammarcos proposal he and FD admit its far to easy to defend, leading to a static gameboard. Its why uncapping UM was suggested, because it then puts the pressure back onto the defender. In a multi mode context this would be a grind without end, while in Open it would focus players on that spot so you could drive off Uming rivals as well as fortify, providing more options to defend as well as attack.

Alternatively, you need to reconsider your attack parameters and attack multiple systems, for example.

And as I've explained twice now, you can't do this. Any attack has to fully UM a rivals most profitable systems and for them not to fortify them- a situation thats incredibly rare because each power sees them as a priority.

Take three examples: Mahon has been attacked twice top to bottom, and was completely fortified in five days. Utopia was attacked in a similar way and was fortified everywhere in three days. Now, if you can level an entire Power and UM everything and that still is not enough, what is? To get to this state in the first place requires months of patience, and even then its trivial to escape- that is unless 5C take things further.

But none of this implies that open only would fix this 'problem', or that the system is not competitive. The ability for defenders to win doesn't make it not competitive, it just means they won the competition.

Open gives you options, as well as making your opposition (and you) unpredictable. Taken as a whole (Open to unify playerbase, uncapped UM hotspots and unified fort direction) it does an awful lot to make things much more tricky defending- which is good, because it makes large powers more difficult to hold, and in turn allows more decent systems to be broken off to be fought over.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Did not read the whole thread, but am quite familiar with this discussion. I guess for me I've never really heard a reason why, rather than making it Open Only, they can't do something like incentivize players into Open. For example, perhaps garrison supplies are a bit cheaper to purchase in Open mode. Etc. I like the concept of the game appealing to as many playstyles and customer tastes as possible, but surely the higher risk behavior, ie playing in Open, could be configured to be a bit more rewarding.

One thing I'm really curious about is whether Odyssey will bring anything new to Powerplay. For example will there be on-foot PP missions we can work on? Maybe FPS combat zones? Will we ever see PP missions on the mission board?

It's really not about cash, it's about a level playing field in the meta game. That said, open only isn't the only or even the best way to achieve that. But it does seem like the most possible, technically speaking.