The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Asp Explorer]

In my experience, Guilds/Group/Clans/Brotherhoods of the Keyboard, call it what you want but they only represent one thing: POWER. Power to the Guild leader, he finally has a purpose in life; he is king of his domain. He is the ultimate power in the group, HE IS GOD! He decides who is in and who is out, who to attack, who to deny access to. Power to the second tier leaders over the minions in the Guild, they finally have someone they can boss around and lord over, all hoping that one day they can rise up to the next level. Power to the Guild over those who aren’t in that Guild, they can finally justify those bully boy tactics. They aren’t in it for social interaction, they aren’t in it to keep up with their mates, if that is the excuse, use FaceBook, it is much easier and you can use webcams.

Whilst I agree with you in the main - not every guild is like that. Some don't have leaders, everyone is equal, and who gets to join or kicked out is decided by a members majority vote. Those were fun days!

Mind you - the majority of guilds that we would see in Elite would in all probability not be like that. Which is why I only want to see them in their own Guild mode.

 

[mossfoot]

The problem with out of game guilding is that there is no real connection or notifications about activity of guild members or other needed and relevant info.

In addition most People are casual gamers and do not have the luxury of 2. Monitors. So alt taking every so often to check chats and or guild notices can be not only inconvenient and annoying but in a game like this very dangerous.

Wouldn't something like Overwolf have what you need? http://www.overwolf.com/

They even have an Elite: Dangerous skin available

[video=youtube;kVu--raWO60]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVu--raWO60&feature=youtu.be[/video]


I'm dead serious, by the way - why couldn't this give you much of what you're asking for?

 

[M00ka]

Whilst I agree with you in the main - not every guild is like that. Some don't have leaders, everyone is equal, and who gets to join or kicked out is decided by a members majority vote. Those were fun days!

Mind you - the majority of guilds that we would see in Elite would in all probability not be like that. Which is why I only want to see them in their own Guild mode.

True Asp, but since a lot seem to be requesting the Eve mode of guilds, they all seem to have some hierarchical structure so it is a fair bet that model will want to be transferred here.

 

[Asp Explorer]

True Asp, but since a lot seem to be requesting the Eve mode of guilds, they all seem to have some hierarchical structure so it is a fair bet that model will want to be transferred here.

Very true - and with that comes the associated nonsense of saluting, chain of command, following orders, meeting quotas, designated ship and loadout, specific playtimes, real contact numbers, in-game guild fees, real money forum fees, backstabbing, doxing, DDoSing, all that fun stuff.

 

[M00ka]

Very true - and with that comes the associated nonsense of saluting, chain of command, following orders, meeting quotas, designated ship and loadout, specific playtimes, real contact numbers, in-game guild fees, real money forum fees, backstabbing, doxing, DDoSing, all that fun stuff.

Ah I see you too have experienced the delights of being in a group. Yes those megalomaniacs to whom a computer game suddenly becomes real life, or a life in lieu of their own can be just that little bit overwhelming can't they lol

 

[Asp Explorer]

Ah I see you too have experienced the delights of being in a group.

If I didn't know what was involved - I wouldn't be saying "no!' to it

 

[Mohrgan]

Very true - and with that comes the associated nonsense of saluting, chain of command, following orders, meeting quotas, designated ship and loadout, specific playtimes, real contact numbers, in-game guild fees, real money forum fees, backstabbing, doxing, DDoSing, all that fun stuff.

And the, the worst of all, Guild Content. They would eventually need content that lets them form up and make use of all those members. That is my bottom line issue with guilds. Their introduction would be a straight line to the demand for large group focused activities. Taking time, money, and attention from content that would benefit all.

Better communications tools would benefit all players. Creating UI's, identifications, and all of the minute associated with the classic implementation of guilds directs valuable FD resources towards features that are not universally, or should I say Galaxy wide, beneficial.

I am still curious, isn't there a plan to associate players groups, Guilds, with minor factions? That was the last I heard from FD on the subject. Is that not enough for the pro-guild guys, and why not?

 

[M00ka]

Very true - and with that comes the associated nonsense of saluting, chain of command, following orders, meeting quotas, designated ship and loadout, specific playtimes, real contact numbers, in-game guild fees, real money forum fees, backstabbing, doxing, DDoSing, all that fun stuff.

And the, the worst of all, Guild Content. They would eventually need content that lets them form up and make use of all those members. That is my bottom line issue with guilds. Their introduction would be a straight line to the demand for large group focused activities. Taking time, money, and attention from content that would benefit all.

Better communications tools would benefit all players. Creating UI's, identifications, and all of the minute associated with the classic implementation of guilds directs valuable FD resources towards features that are not universally, or should I say Galaxy wide, beneficial.

I am still curious, isn't there a plan to associate players groups, Guilds, with minor factions? That was the last I heard from FD on the subject. Is that not enough for the pro-guild guys, and why not?

Funny you should mention that, I started compiling a list of core aspects of the game that Guilds would probably be asking to be changed:

Better Communication – well everyone has agreed to this, it is a no-brainer
Larger instances – cos 32 just isn’t enough
Name tags – how else will they instil fear in those they meet
Unique Guild Skins for all ships – they have to be pretty don’t they
Player owned stations – where else are they going to hang their trophies and an asteroid just won’t be big enough
Guild owned ships – cos not everyone can afford a Python or Anaconda
Guild controlled systems – cos one station just isn’t enough
NPC Control – how dare the NPC security force not obey the Guild leader’s instructions?
Transfer of credits – the boyz have to pay their dues to the Guild
Ability to grant or deny access to a station – how else will they keep the common folk out
Ability to set or modify commodity prices – hey a Guild has to make credits right, how else will they afford the next item
Ownership of Capital Ships – need to protect those precious Guild owned stations
Ability to destroy Stations – well what else are they going to use those Captial ships on, destroying Eagles and Sidewinders?

In fact we should start compiling a decent list of changes, could be fun

 

[Asp Explorer]

Completely agree. Can any guildies offer any differing opinion?

 

[Herik]

Damn, I knew it was gonna be about cyberbullies cyberbullying. But wait, all of that ALREADY happens, partly thanks to PP. Some call it emergent gameplay and living-breathing, cut-throat galaxy even. You seem to try your best to bargain yourself a safer, more predictable environment where you are always in control in open ended multyplayer game with all kinds of people driven by all kinds of motives. That's pretty uh... I don't know... delusional?

Perhaps you just dont know that all games are for entertainment, thus a pretense, an illusion. You want to make it derogatory; calling it a delusion. Well then OK; your just deluded in your own way...Others of us Open players know we could have excellent entertainment in a game without Guilds, and we wouldn't use the word delusional.

 

[Herik]

Nah...players killing players isn't where the cut throat part of the game comes from, groups running PvE goals are where you truly create conflict in this game! Direct PvP is just a waste of time for in game advancement...and pure fun for Role Players or the nefarious. For those that want to accomplish goals, or wreak havoc, in the game, whether for vertical advancement (more or better ships) or those wanting to affect the game (through Power Play or Community Goals or the Background Simulation) PvE interactions and Cooperation are the only winning strategies.

Well I'm amazed, I agree with you. But you know this is really not what 'these Guildies' want...

- - - Updated - - -

Very true - and with that comes the associated nonsense of saluting, chain of command, following orders, meeting quotas, designated ship and loadout, specific playtimes, real contact numbers, in-game guild fees, real money forum fees, backstabbing, doxing, DDoSing, all that fun stuff.

And certainly not what DB wanted to make of E...

 

[Herik]

And the, the worst of all, Guild Content. They would eventually need content that lets them form up and make use of all those members. That is my bottom line issue with guilds. Their introduction would be a straight line to the demand for large group focused activities. Taking time, money, and attention from content that would benefit all.

Better communications tools would benefit all players. Creating UI's, identifications, and all of the minute associated with the classic implementation of guilds directs valuable FD resources towards features that are not universally, or should I say Galaxy wide, beneficial.

I am still curious, isn't there a plan to associate players groups, Guilds, with minor factions? That was the last I heard from FD on the subject. Is that not enough for the pro-guild guys, and why not?

I think your right and (no), the pro guild guys want it all...

 

[Herik]

Yay! [Citation please. I'd love to get more info]

Well then, the Guild element in Open will drive 20,000 to 30,000 Open players into...Moebius sub groups?

Why not,... Interesting.

 

[david6768]

I think your right and (no), the pro guild guys want it all...

Yes I would hate to see challenging content that a group would be required to complete such as being able to do something productive in game with friends! That would just be horrible. Lets not have guilds , lets have corporations

Say there was a super difficult mission with great rewards that you wanted to accomplish but you were die hard anti guild. With the proper implementation of some in game communication tools you could advertise something along the lines of hey I am interested in running the take down the Andromeda Space Station Mission anyone want to join me? Then you form a "temporary group" not a guild oh no just a temp group to accomplish a single mission or campaign then disband. You too could participate in and enjoy whatever large scale guild size missions that were available without ever joining a guild. This kind of thing happens all the time in other games. There are 1000's of single player games out there and very few good multiplayer games. Why buy a multiplayer game and complain about people wanting content that would involve say umm multiple players?



I really really really don't understand how people buy and play a game with MMO in the description want to hinder any and all game content that would increase player cooperation and interaction! I see it all over the forums and quite frankly I just don't get it!

 

[Mohrgan]

Yes I would hate to see challenging content that a group would be required to complete such as being able to do something productive in game with friends! That would just be horrible. Lets not have guilds , lets have corporations

Say there was a super difficult mission with great rewards that you wanted to accomplish but you were die hard anti guild. With the proper implementation of some in game communication tools you could advertise something along the lines of hey I am interested in running the take down the Andromeda Space Station Mission anyone want to join me? Then you form a "temporary group" not a guild oh no just a temp group to accomplish a single mission or campaign then disband. You too could participate in and enjoy whatever large scale guild size missions that were available without ever joining a guild. This kind of thing happens all the time in other games.

Pie in the sky. PUG's in space. I think you make my point. There was no hesitation. You launched right into a defense of large scale activities. Guild/Corp's would clamor for content that would lock out the lone wolf type pilot. This game's character is based on 'one pilot, one ship'. I'd like it to stay that way. Large scale activities would be unattainable for players who play in solo mode. Even those who play that way for technical reasons.

I remember FD talking about associating player groups with minor factions, and that players could adopt a minor faction. Working through the BSG would keep the content created within the grasp of the lone pilot. Making content that excludes any pilots is a waste of time, and has the effect of pushing players,who may not want to join, to join in order to see that content. That has not escaped FD's notice. I've read statements where they say that is not part of their vision. I will do what I can to encourage that view

 

[david6768]

Pie in the sky. PUG's in space. I think you make my point. There was no hesitation. You launched right into a defense of large scale activities. Guild/Corp's would clamor for content that would lock out the lone wolf type pilot. This game's character is based on 'one pilot, one ship'. I'd like it to stay that way. Large scale activities would be unattainable for players who play in solo mode. Even those who play that way for technical reasons.

I remember FD talking about associating player groups with minor factions, and that players could adopt a minor faction. Working through the BSG would keep the content created within the grasp of the lone pilot. Making content that excludes any pilots is a waste of time, and has the effect of pushing players,who may not want to join, to join in order to see that content. That has not escaped FD's notice. I've read statements where they say that is not part of their vision. I will do what I can to encourage that view

No there is no hesitation it says MMO in the game description, there are 4 billion solo games already on the market don't buy an MMO and complain about multiplayer content that could exclude solo player. Yes you might not be able to do a particular mission solo. Due to technical reasons ?? IS there a technical reason you can't make or have friends to play with?

I saw some guys argument against player owned stations earlier that was Oh no way there might be a system owned by a player that I couldn't go and I thought to myself really out of 400 billion systems it is the end of the world that you can't visit one of them! The same applies here for technical reasons if you can't participate in some content or even if I can't participate in some content who cares! If guilds and guild content doesn't interest you then not participating in it shouldn't be an issue! I am not interested in exploration so guess what I don't participate in it ! What I don't do is argue that exploration should be excluded from the game !

 

[Mohrgan]

No there is no hesitation it says MMO in the game description, there are 4 billion solo games already on the market don't buy an MMO and complain about multiplayer content that could exclude solo player. Yes you might not be able to do a particular mission solo. Due to technical reasons ?? IS there a technical reason you can't make or have friends to play with?

Connection issues. It's not that uncommon in different parts of the world to have IT issues. MMO means many things to many people. MMO doesn't have to mean 'Raiding'. Elite presents itself with a different vision for multiplayer. What I have seen and read from FD they are not too keen on large groups dominating content. That attitude helped draw me into this game. I can get guild drama anywhere. Seeing a game that promotes the lone wolf type was of great interest to me.

I do other activities with my friends. I interact with them in the flesh. Personally I don't look to the interweb for friends. At over 50 years old not a lot of my friend are gamers. I would like FD to keep Elite's focus on the individual player, and not some re-hash of all the other games on my hard drive.

We see things differently. I bought the game for what it was. Not for how I wished it would be. I will counter, if I can, any attempt to shift the character this game away from the vision FD presented to me. Guilds would do just that, shift the character of Elite, right into what I can get all over the gaming world. I came here for the differences in Elite, not to make it the same old, same old.

 

[david6768]

Connection issues. It's not that uncommon in different parts of the world to have IT issues. MMO means many things to many people. MMO doesn't have to mean 'Raiding'. Elite presents itself with a different vision for multiplayer. What I have seen and read from FD they are not too keen on large groups dominating content. That attitude helped draw me into this game. I can get guild drama anywhere. Seeing a game that promotes the lone wolf type was of great interest to me.
I do other activities with my friends. I interact with them in the flesh. Personally I don't look to the interweb for friends. At over 50 years old not a lot of my friend are gamers. I would like FD to keep Elite's focus on the individual player, and not some re-hash of all the other games on my hard drive.

So because you have IT issues multiplayer and guilds should not be in the game, That might be the most arrogant thing I have ever read!
In solo mode you should not see or be affected by any guilds period so I am unsure as to why you are taking any side on this issue.
I am 42, not quite 50 but I am closer to 50 than I am to 20 If you get your IT issues ironed out we can form an old guys guild

I know I know you say the word guild and people automatically think griefing and that can be true if it is not done correctly.I am not particularly interested in seeing a guild system that creates a hostile unplayable game where everyone gets shot on sight and you can't play it due to all the griefing.

I have real life friends and I have gamer friends that live across the world that I have never met in person.

What I do enjoy when I play games and why I pretty much only play MMO games is the player interaction. The one guy in the group that accidentally shoots the ship your supposed to be protecting and it is down to 2% health and the rest of the group has to coordinate how to get us out of this hot mess we are in, then player x in the group rams the attacking ship that threatens to destroy the ship you are trying to protect, sacrificing himself so the guild can accomplish the mission.

Games have missions or things to do or whatever and you do them solo and you have done them and you finish the game and move on to the next game. Games that have a multiplayer experience remain fun for much much longer. Say you need a group of 5 Anaconda's to get the mission done but you have your Anaconda and 4 other new players with sidewinders and you're like what the heck lets give it a try and you maybe almost make it through and a good time was had by all. It is the player interaction and the randomness of it that brings fun and entertainment to the same old mission that you have done 100 times before.

I bought a game that said it was an MMO but is in it's current state is actually difficult to play and enjoy with other players.

 

[Malpherian]

So I let this run for a few pages without replying, and, honestly I wasn't disappointed.

Let me break down why the anti guild guys are so passionately fighting not to have guilds in game:


1. With every post they make (Almost exclusively) there is one thing in common no matter which one Post's it and I'll use a quotes to emphasize it (All of these are from different posters).

*

In my experience, Guilds/Group/Clans/Brotherhoods of the Keyboard, call it what you want but they only represent one thing: POWER. Power to the Guild leader, he finally has a purpose in life; he is king of his domain. He is the ultimate power in the group, HE IS GOD!

Very true - and with that comes the associated nonsense of saluting, chain of command, following orders, meeting quotas, designated ship and loadout, specific playtimes, real contact numbers, in-game guild fees, real money forum fees, backstabbing, doxing, DDoSing, all that fun stuff.

I just don't like the effect guilds have on games, they restrict non-guild players and encourage mass-attery.

Of course not, but then in my daily interactions I don't have people that will intentionally do things to waste my time for their own personal enjoyment simply because they can get away with it.

* I think that's enough to make my point as follows for empirical evidence:

So what your seeing here is what we in the psychology field term "Displacement". It's when a person or group of individuals suffer traumatic events, and rather then face those events and work through them, afterword, instead every time they see a similar situation they "Automatically" assume, and blame that situation for their past issues and pain.

So essentially what has happened is these Players have had bad experiences with guilds. Instead of continuing to look for a better guild (as not all are the same) they stopped and gave up, assuming that if their experience with one, aw hell maybe even 5 guilds, is horrible they all are and will be.

Now anytime the word "Guild" is mentioned they go into Defense mode, since they are stuck in the "Absolute" of Guilds ruin Games". When it has been proven repeatedly, by the industry itself, multiple studies on such and their effects on games in everything from social interaction to financial development of the game itself, that this is in fact not the case. For any Game on Any level.


Essentially, Their mentality is akin to "My last GF cheated on me, so all women are sluts". When clearly in reality, this is not the case.


2. Having been playing MMO's for about 20+ years I personally have been in 100's if not 1000's of guilds, even lead a few myself, In EvE I lead an Alliance of over 6,000 people and 25 Corps.

I can tell you for a fact, that I have been in some pretty damn crappy guilds... And I mean Horrible absolutely full of worthless people. So I can Empathize with what these folks are going through. However I have also (for the vast majority in fact) been in guilds that were supportive, wonderful and genuinely had your back and cared about you, NOT just in game either, but in RL. I've seen some of the guilds I've been in donate 1000's of dollars to a members family to help with a child's surgery, or to help pay the persons electric or internet bill after they were laid off (Simply so the person could be Online and have fun instead of being down and bummed out worried about how those bills would get paid). NOThING ASKED FOR IN RETURN. And I have seen things like that A LOT. It's common place in most guilds.

* When I was in EvE, I recruited a lot of people with this Displacement mentality (and hey I can't blame them there's a ton of worthless guilds in EvE), So I approached them like this:

I would start up the convo, and they'd tell me about how their last guild did them, and they think they'll just stay in an NPC corp (Similar to power play groups here). I would carry on the convo, and eventually make them a proposition:

Come join my Alliance, Stay for one week, If you are not thrilled with the people and having fun I will buy you a PLEX and give you a Billion ISK and an Escort back to highsec. (Those of you who have played EvE know exactly what kind of an offer that is, and know it's a VERY VERY good one). After a week I'd pull them in my office on Teamspeak and have a chat with them, and ask them Would you like to take me up on my offer?

Guess how many took the offer?

0


3. As we've said multiple times throughout this thread. Guilds are not the issue, people are the issue. Guilds will not change your game, People, will change your game. Guilds can be Horrible, and Great. Because of "Say it with me".... People.

Your fear (and lets be honest that is exactly what it is, as is made blatantly obvious by the quotes up there), that because in your experience you have only known a guild to be...Crap... , because you have only ever wet your toes in the massively large ocean that is these things you called Guilds, you think you know what it is. You think it's a horrible idea, You think it will ruin your game. And you know what.. I understand, I really do. But your 100% wrong also.

* Your personal fear of something you honestly have never really experienced at all in depth, doesn't give you the right to preach to everyone that the sky will fall. Because lets be real, it wont.

* Because you stopped after a couple or even just One, makes you an amateur in the knowledge of guilds, and the least qualified to make any kind of statement concerning them. So anything you say about them should, be taken with a grain of salt and the realization that your "opinion" on such is colored by your fear of a past experience repeating itself.

And that too, is ok.

- So relax, because the day you find a great guild, is the day you will change your tune, and I have seen it happen 1000's of times while I was the Alliance Executor for Paradox Initiative. I've also seen it happen in the many other alliances I belonged to in my tenure in EvE.

People come in Bitter, thinking corps are horrible, and afraid were going to get them into 0.0 then blow them up. And they wait sometimes for MONTHS for the other shoe to drop, when it never does they finally relax, take a fresh breath, look around and go.. WoW... These guys/Girls are actually... Great.

 

[david6768]

Well said Malpherian!