The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[the100thmonkey]

TThe player SoV control mechanics (System wars) would be different from power play, as PP is designed for NPC's which do everything anyway automatically. and that concern would only apply to "System" Control.

Stations are owned by who they are owned by. Sure a mechanic for taking a players station could later be introduced why not. But again it wouldn't be the same as the PP mechanics.
Specifically for the reasons you pointed out. among others.

I'm not talking about Powerplay - I think it's poorly thought-out and has never appealed to me in the slightest. My comrades who have engaged with it pulled out once they got the "special" weapons, citing its being poorly thought-out and unappealing.

Do you know anything about the BGS?

 

[Bacalao]

Malpherian, you must be really dizzy, talking yourself in circles in this thread.

 

[Malpherian]

I believe I'm pretty well versed in the goings on. I would be thrilled if you could point me at those blogs and update notes. FD has surprised me before. No raid type content you may be the only one saying this. I am not confusing anything. I am saying that the scale of a guild will act on the type of content generated. Once there are monolithic guilds with their base organized, there eyes would turn to large scale activities. Look at the posts in this thread for proof. FD has an opportunity to make it different. Integrate player groups right with the BGS from the start. Associate, adopt, create a minor faction that expands and contracts with it's fortunes. There you have empire building that needs no special content. Even CG's don't require membership into anything. Any lone pilot can make a difference, that's a good plan.

I have to spend some time trying to catch up on the Minor Factions issue. I must pray to the google gods.

never said anything about raid content, I said FD said they are adding player owned Stations, Crafting, and large group content. (Which can be found int he Horizon blog and several others posted in the last 2 weeks). In fact One of the Mods posting in this thread posted a link to one of them. (too lazy to go look for it) .

 

[Malpherian]

I'm not talking about Powerplay - I think it's poorly thought-out and has never appealed to me in the slightest. My comrades who have engaged with it pulled out once they got the "special" weapons, citing its being poorly thought-out and unappealing.

Do you know anything about the BGS?

What does BGS stand for? I've seen it used a lot but can;t for the life of me figure out what it means (even though after you tell me I'll probably go DUH and slap myself )

 

[mossfoot]

never said anything about raid content, I said FD said they are adding player owned Stations, Crafting, and large group content. (Which can be found int he Horizon blog and several others posted in the last 2 weeks). In fact One of the Mods posting in this thread posted a link to one of them. (too lazy to go look for it) .

This is the most complete list of upcoming features you're likely to find

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=172362

 

[Mohrgan]

Why is it silly if it's true? If you mean, silly for people to behave that way then I agree.


On another note,
- You both sit there and insult my well thought out and detailed post within which evidence is provided to support it. Yet in rebuttal you provide nothing but insults to it, saying it's silly Nonsense.

And so your aware (which you obviously are not) the argument for and against guilds is in fact a psychological and social one at it's core. So my post is VERY relevant, and Very accurate.

- - - Updated - - -



All can participate in everything I have suggested if they "want to" or not , if they don't. I don't see your point here. (this has been covered multiple times already also)

But plain useless. You can talk about trends, but you have no insight to an actual players psychology. Trying to diagnose a group on a forum thread is nonsensical from the start. I was blunt, but not insulting. You have shrugged off my position on resources. Most of my response was about how FD should spend their time, not trying to play shrink.

Again, with your monolithic approach to guilds it's a surety that guilds would demand large scale activities. Those activities would exclude lone players, who will have paid just what we have to enjoy the game. Is it fair that they should subsidize someone's gaming?

 

[Malpherian]

Malpherian, you must be really dizzy, talking yourself in circles in this thread.

And here I thought I was passionately arguing for Openness, Content, and freedom for all players to get what they desire and have fun.

 

[Mohrgan]

never said anything about raid content, I said FD said they are adding player owned Stations, Crafting, and large group content. (Which can be found int he Horizon blog and several others posted in the last 2 weeks). In fact One of the Mods posting in this thread posted a link to one of them. (too lazy to go look for it) .

Just point me to them. I admit ignorance of that info. We may be talking duck and oranges here. I have heard whispers of semi-permanent personal garages, but not stations. Crafting is scheduled during the Horizon season, I'm aware. Are the blogs on this forum? I love to read that stuff.

 

[Robert Maynard]

1. Demystifying guilds: MMORPG-playing and norms

http://www.digra.org/wp-content/uploads/digital-library/09291.50401.pdf


2. What Makes an MMORPG Leader? A Social Cognitive Theory-Based Approach to Understanding the Formation of Leadership Capabilities in Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games


http://www.eludamos.org/index.php/eludamos/article/viewArticle/vol6no1-4/6-1-4-html


3. MMORPG Guilds as online communities.Power, Space and Time: from fun toengagement in virtual worlds.

http://larica.uniurb.it/wp-content/pictures/download/rossiIR90.pdf


4. Object of Study, MMO Guilds as Networks

https://dawnofthecyborg.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/object-of-study-mmo-guilds-as-networks


5. Even FORBES has something to say on the matter: Studying Player Commitment To MMORPGs

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2012/11/30/studying-player-commitment-to-mmorpgs/


Nuff said.

But I'll save you the reading. They all contend that MMO's which have guilds are far more successful, and their players are much happier then MMO's without them, they also attribute higher profits, as well as longevity of a game based on it's social ability for players to interact. Games which encourage and support such, generally last years if not decades, games which do not, well... do not.

The positive effects of guilds in MMo's is clearly seen, all tests which were done in non guild MMO's were found to be exceedingly negative with the game not being very popular, and sales being only about a quarter (average) of their potential compared to MMO's with guilds. The effect of guilds on the community in which they reside was found to be overwhelmingly positive in almost all cases.

There were a few in the studies which show that games enheritly designed as single player games converted into an MMO such as "Skyrim" and "Fallout", lacked the structure to support large groups of people in their virtual environments. (But again that's not really a anything concerning actual guilds anyway. ED has more then enough structure and potential to house and sustain an almost unlimited number of guilds. so that would not be an issue here.

Following a quick flick through the links above, without exception, the links you mention relate to MMORPGs and emphasise that Guilds are a core element of the game in games where they are implemented.

1) Verhagen/Johansson: Norms in MMORPGs (WoW) - what rules may be expected to be in place in a Guild.

2) Ee/Cho: Article on what makes a good Guild leader.

3) Rossi: Describes Guilds in WoW.

4) Dawn of the Cyborg: Guilds make it easier to accomplish raids / Guild content.

5) Forbes: Study of Guilds and player retention in Guild oriented games.

A common thread in these links is the emphasis on social interaction - I don't think that there would be much opposition to (vastly) improved in-game communications, especially in relation to Powerplay and the upcoming player sponsorship of Minor Factions to become Powers.

What Frontier have offered in Powerplay is a form of group content but have not given players the opportunity to lead the Powers, merely to participate. Not everyone can be the Guild leader - therefore, it would seem, that normal Guild followers have already been enabled to participatein group activities. What has specifically not been implemented is player management of the aims of the power or control of who can affiliate with a Power. This is consistent with the opinions on large player controlled groups that DBOBE has expressed.

 

[Malpherian]

But plain useless. You can talk about trends, but you have no insight to an actual players psychology. Trying to diagnose a group on a forum thread is nonsensical from the start. I was blunt, but not insulting. You have shrugged off my position on resources. Most of my response was about how FD should spend their time, not trying to play shrink.

Again, with your monolithic approach to guilds it's a surety that guilds would demand large scale activities. Those activities would exclude lone players, who will have paid just what we have to enjoy the game. Is it fair that they should subsidize someone's gaming?

And your statements above are not complete 100% assumptions? You can not know the future. So they can be nothing else. My psycho babble was based on the past, where there is relevant empirical evidence, and yes in fact you can diagnose a problem with people, and solve it, on a forum, especially one in which the people your quoting have posted 10,20,30 times, and made clear their opinion, approach, and why they have posted, through their personalty, and statements.

I used to do it all the time when I worked for BNR as their Director of Public Relations. (Granted it wasn't just a forum's. It was Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, and any number of other media sites as well as the forums and team-speaks... but yea). Companies don't pay you to do something like that, unless A. You're good at it. And B. it works.

 

[M00ka]

1. Actually from what I've read about upcoming expansion Guilds are going to be introduced (as Fleets), I've even got something (A Guild Design Scheme) I am going to post which allows guilds in Open while simultaneously ensuring none of the things you all are concerned about is a factor. I used to be a Dev and A creative consultant myself. So I am going to do this for this community because I think it's worth it.

2. I joined elite dangerous because It's a game with a ton of untouched potential, it's in it's early stages, and that means I can be a part of shaping it, In EvE I was an industrialist mainly, and an Economist. I enjoy the ability to create, design, and be a part of something meaningful, and I believe Elite is all of those things and can be all of those things.

I quit eve because I burned out. 13 years is a long time. I didn't get bored or anything.. EvE is just... very time consuming... and I do not have the time to dedicate to it. I found Elite, and it's similar enough to EvE (especially with the upcoming expansions) not to mention its an FPS cockpit shooter, that I just had to try it, and like I loved EvE I loved ED and it's potential to be better then all others.

3. A guild doesn;t have to be more then 32 players, but even 100 man guild can spread its members out across multiple systems doing multiple things, some muight like to trade together, some might run missions, others might Mine (especially with crafting upcoming), some might PP adn PvP... who knows there's lots of options for Guild activity without the Devs actually having to add anything at all.

What they can add with guild content, is and SHOULD be available content for ALL players as well. Solo or winged. but is made possible through Guild functions, like Guild owned stations for example. And we meaning all of us can make that happen, and make the game BETTER for EVERYONE. Not just Solo players or Guild Players, but features that enrich the game FOR ALL.

4. Yes I can guarantee that. ED is revolutionary because it includes said Solo mode, which is an amazing feature while still allowing interaction with the real game world. All of these features (such as custom missions, Market items being sold by players crafted by that guild on the stations market, etc, which Guild Stations would introduce would also, be available to these SOLO players as well. Even in Open your going to find that while like now yes your going to have the occasional at/Frak guild/group/whatever. Your also going to have the Good guys who will fight, and stand up for you the little guy.

I want this game to have millions of people, it's a huge game with billions of star systems. I want Diversity, I want Content, I want everyone, to have something they want, in game. And to have a game that no matter it's Content, they WILL always have something they will enjoy and can do, by themselves, or with a group.

Since you were polite enough to attempt to answer my questions (and you only used two colours and two fonts - a first I think), my turn for a rebuttal (but all in one colour/one font):

1. This is the first I have heard about FD introducing Guilds, everything I have read has stated the exact opposite. It would be a major backflip for the Devs and a major restructure of the entire engine of the game.

2. So you burnt out after 13 years playing a space sim so you start playing another space sim - yep that makes sense. And not only that you want to recreate Eve in Elite. OKayyyyyy. Yet instead of accepting the game as designed, you want to change the very infrastructure that due so many to the game, the ability to do what one wants, when one wants to and how one wants to. With Guilds, that might stop. At least when FD introduced PowerPlay they didn't make it mandatory, I never pledged, have no intention of pledging and it has zero effect on me.

3. Under the present architecture, there will never be more than 32 in an instant. Which kind of makes a lot of the Guild activities that have been mentioned rather null and void. So you are saying that Guilds will only enhance our experience, that is of course if we are allowed to dock at a Guild station, not have to pay a fee to dock at a Guild station, and be able to pay standard prices for commodities, outfitting and ships at a Guild station. Big IF isn't it!

4. Guilds in Solo will be meaningless, to a Solo player it will be an NPC. We don't even know if what you are proposing is possible, but you are suggesting a major revamp of the entire infrastructure to the game as at present all of that is handled via the Dev/NPC. I also don't believe for one iota your last statement about a Guild coming to the rescue of the lone, little guy - they only way they would is if there was something in it for the Guild as an entity.

Now for your last sentence, the one you so thoughtfully highlighted so we can all ready it without our glasses. There are a lot of "I want ..." in that sentence but it is pretty clear the only thing you want is EIAC (Eve In a Cockpit).

Finally, you seem perplexed that the community aren't lauding you for your insightful comments on how the game can be improved. Consider this: What would be the reaction of the Eve community if I jumped on their forums and told them that whilst I love the game, the whole Corporation thing kind of sucks, whilst the 1,000 ship battles might seem impressive, the lag is really poor so how about cutting down the number to a couple of dozen ships at the most, oh and while we are at it, I really want to fly my ship properly so how about putting me in the cockpit just like that game Elite?

Do you think I would get a polite answer???

 

[Malpherian]

Following a quick flick through the links above, without exception, the links you mention relate to MMORPGs and emphasise that Guilds are a core element of the game in games where they are implemented.

1) Verhagen/Johansson: Norms in MMORPGs (WoW) - what rules may be expected to be in place in a Guild.

2) Ee/Cho: Article on what makes a good Guild leader.

3) Rossi: Describes Guilds in WoW.

4) Dawn of the Cyborg: Guilds make it easier to accomplish raids / Guild content.

5) Forbes: Study of Guilds and player retention in Guild oriented games.

A common thread in these links is the emphasis on social interaction - I don't think that there would be much opposition to (vastly) improved in-game communications, especially in relation to Powerplay and the upcoming player sponsorship of Minor Factions to become Powers.

What Frontier have offered in Powerplay is a form of group content but have not given players the opportunity to lead the Powers, merely to participate. Not everyone can be the Guild leader - therefore, it would seem, that normal Guild followers have already been enabled to participatein group activities. What has specifically not been implemented is player management of the aims of the power or control of who can affiliate with a Power. This is consistent with the opinions on large player controlled groups that DBOBE has expressed.

------

I have no comment on the above as it's all just relevant info on whats going on.

However

Can you re-post those links about the Player stations, Large group activities and crafting (That you did earlier) there's a guy up there asking for them.

Thanks

 

[Mohrgan]

And your statements above are not complete 100% assumptions? You can not know the future. So they can be nothing else. My psycho babble was based on the past, where there is relevant empirical evidence, and yes in fact you can diagnose a problem with people, and solve it, on a forum, especially one in which the people your quoting have posted 10,20,30 times, and made clear their opinion, approach, and why they have posted, through their personalty, and statements.

I used to do it all the time when I worked for BNR as their Director of Public Relations. (Granted it wasn't just a forum's. It was Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, and any number of other media sites as well as the forums and team-speaks... but yea). Companies don't pay you to do something like that, unless A. You're good at it. And B. it works.

I'm not going to accept psychoanalysis via the interweb, and by a non doctor to boot. I am not convinced. Let that go.

Let's talk about the Resource issue I made, and the Minor Factions feature that was hinted at. That is stuff you can present on a forum. I say let Elite be different, that's a big part of it;s charm. I say keep the content as accessible as is possible, to one or many.

You have to remember, even though I may be quoting your one post, I am arguing against the entire argument from the pro-guild side. I kinda think 'well I never said that' is evasive and counter productive. It's a common part of the requests for guilds, yours isn;t the only opinion I oppose.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Can you re-post those links about the Player stations, Large group activities and crafting (That you did earlier) there's a guy up there asking for them.

Thanks

This one?

FD could start by adding 'some' support and then grow the features.
Outright refusal to change and add multiplayer features to a multiplayer game is simply hiding one's head in the sand for fear that the boogie man (Eve) will come and eat our lunches.

Examples of reluctance to include Guild features which facilitate large groups of players in the game from DBOBE himself: here and also in his interview with Arstechnica at E3:

More standardized online gaming conventions like clans or formalized player organizations aren’t in the cards, at least not for the foreseeable future.

I'm asking you personally.

Do you think that unaffiliated players will be tolerated, even without owned stations, by Guilds that have chosen to adopt a particular system as their own? The idea that Guilds would be happy out in the weeds on the frontier of human occupied space does not seem to be a realistic one, to me, and I fully expect that they will want to occupy well travelled space to allow them to interact with as many other players as possible.

 

[Malpherian]

Since you were polite enough to attempt to answer my questions (and you only used two colours and two fonts - a first I think), my turn for a rebuttal (but all in one colour/one font):

1. This is the first I have heard about FD introducing Guilds, everything I have read has stated the exact opposite. It would be a major backflip for the Devs and a major restructure of the entire engine of the game.

2. So you burnt out after 13 years playing a space sim so you start playing another space sim - yep that makes sense. And not only that you want to recreate Eve in Elite. OKayyyyyy. Yet instead of accepting the game as designed, you want to change the very infrastructure that due so many to the game, the ability to do what one wants, when one wants to and how one wants to. With Guilds, that might stop. At least when FD introduced PowerPlay they didn't make it mandatory, I never pledged, have no intention of pledging and it has zero effect on me.

3. Under the present architecture, there will never be more than 32 in an instant. Which kind of makes a lot of the Guild activities that have been mentioned rather null and void. So you are saying that Guilds will only enhance our experience, that is of course if we are allowed to dock at a Guild station, not have to pay a fee to dock at a Guild station, and be able to pay standard prices for commodities, outfitting and ships at a Guild station. Big IF isn't it!

4. Guilds in Solo will be meaningless, to a Solo player it will be an NPC. We don't even know if what you are proposing is possible, but you are suggesting a major revamp of the entire infrastructure to the game as at present all of that is handled via the Dev/NPC. I also don't believe for one iota your last statement about a Guild coming to the rescue of the lone, little guy - they only way they would is if there was something in it for the Guild as an entity.

Now for your last sentence, the one you so thoughtfully highlighted so we can all ready it without our glasses. There are a lot of "I want ..." in that sentence but it is pretty clear the only thing you want is EIAC (Eve In a Cockpit).

Finally, you seem perplexed that the community aren't lauding you for your insightful comments on how the game can be improved. Consider this: What would be the reaction of the Eve community if I jumped on their forums and told them that whilst I love the game, the whole Corporation thing kind of sucks, whilst the 1,000 ship battles might seem impressive, the lag is really poor so how about cutting down the number to a couple of dozen ships at the most, oh and while we are at it, I really want to fly my ship properly so how about putting me in the cockpit just like that game Elite?

Do you think I would get a polite answer???

1. It's not in an official blog just some off the cuff statements in some of the interview hinting at them.

2. ED already supports Guilds and already has the structure in the game itself. I would explain why and how I know this, but it would take me 3 pages and a lot of it is technical stuff you just notice with current features and mechanics.

3. Why would a 32 player limit make features for a guild null and void, that's.. 8 wings.... Most games with "Guild specific activities or "Large group activities" only have 5-10 man stuff, some might be 20. ED supports 32. So not seeing an issue here at all. Even if your talking about self oriented player created content... Still not seeing an issue.

4. If a person is in a guild, there probably going to be playing in open, but if they chose to play in solo they would still ahve access to their guilds features, so... again thats a personal player choice and people can play however they want. So again... not really an issue.

**** This game is still under development, it's not even remotely finished. Who knows what this game will be about in a year or two. It may be an entirely different game by then. Hell they may decide Open mode is not what they want because they don't want to compete with the MMO market and remove it, or vice versa with Solo mode. I mean lets be real... They said we'd have an Offline mode... But then removed it... So.. anything is possible, and everything is up in the air at this point.

**** If you went on the EvE forums and did that a CSM would probably mail you asking for your suggestions so he could take it to the next meeting in Iceland that CCP flys the player elected CSM to every year for development planning for the next year. CCP listens to it's players, and attempts to give them what they want in a balanced well planned out way.


FYI on this CCP currently has 2 Cockpit shooters in the works, one which allows players to protect their corps mining Ships, and another which allows you to pilot a Mother-ships Bombers and Fighters. So your a bit late as many players have already done this.

 

[Robert Maynard]

1. It's not in an official blog just some off the cuff statements in some of the interview hinting at them.

Links are always good (although I may have found one of those that you omitted).

**** This game is still under development, it's not even remotely finished. Who knows what this game will be about in a year or two. It may be an entirely different game by then. Hell they may decide Open mode is not what they want because they don't want to compete with the MMO market and remove it, or vice versa with Solo mode. I mean lets be real... They said we'd have an Offline mode... But then removed it... So.. anything is possible, and everything is up in the air at this point.

Offline mode was removed before release - that ship sailed a long time ago (and is another reason that Solo will, in my opinion, *never* be removed). While anything may be *possible*, the *probability* of some of the more fundamentally game changing proposals being implemented is, in my opinion, low. The stated game design was published at the outset of the Kickstarter, over two and a half years ago - the game broadly follows that (with CQC as a new separate game element that does not directly affect the main game). While the game may still be being added to, I expect that the feature plan was firmed up quite some time ago. Indeed, in DBOBE's interview with Arstechnica at E3, he is again recorded as stating:

More standardized online gaming conventions like clans or formalized player organizations aren’t in the cards, at least not for the foreseeable future.

We've just had the Horizons announcement with more expansions due to follow (developing planetary landings further, leaving the pilot's seat [much later]), so I would imagine that "foreseeable future" is quite some time away.

 

[Malpherian]

This one?

No the one with links to thosee blogs or whatever they were you linked earlier before the thread turned into the Pro Guild Anti Guild debate .


On that last statement there though, Yes Guilds would be perfectly happy out in the weeds as you put it. Believe me, there's over 100k+ people who live in Nullsec in EvE, some have lived there and never left in 10 years. (Nullsec is akin to what the empty vastness of space beyond the colonized part is, here in ED). People love and people will flock to it if they are given the ability to build stations create guilds etc. They will go out there and many you wont ever see in the core systems ever again.

Especially the explorers in the game. You'll give them a system 5000 ly away from populated space, come back a year later and find theyve built a Multi Guild, Multi Player, Multi Cultural Empire spanning 100s of systems that no one even knew was there, with it's own economy, market, and trade, as well as it's own politics.

"Were creating Worlds here, and Universes, and Societies" Not simply guilds that own some space. - Mal

 

[Mohrgan]

So let me get this right Malph, you hit me with the 'too lazy to look it up' when your citations are interpretations of the available quotes? That's kinda shady. I've seen all of the material offered up here, and we get wildly different signals. Let's see how it comes out. I hope FD follows their own path, and leaves the run-of-the-mill game features for the run-of-the-mill games.

 

[Mohrgan]

No the one with links to thosee blogs or whatever they were you linked earlier before the thread turned into the Pro Guild Anti Guild debate .


On that last statement there though, Yes Guilds would be perfectly happy out in the weeds as you put it. Believe me, there's over 100k+ people who live in Nullsec in EvE, some have lived there and never left in 10 years. (Nullsec is akin to what the empty vastness of space beyond the colonized part is, here in ED). People love and people will flock to it if they are given the ability to build stations create guilds etc. They will go out there and many you wont ever see in the core systems ever again.

Especially the explorers in the game. You'll give them a system 5000 ly away from populated space, come back a year later and find theyve built a Multi Guild, Multi Player, Multi Cultural Empire spanning 100s of systems that no one even knew was there, with it's own economy, market, and trade, as well as it's own politics.

"Were creating Worlds here, and Universes, and Societies" Not simply guilds that own some space. - Mal

Quite a sales pitch, but I'll stick with Elite thanks. I had a short stint in Eve. I was unhappy with the game. I'm certain a Corp wouldn't change my opinion of that. Thanks for the invite. I can't help it. It may be a weakness, but I am totally repulsed by the determined comparisons to Eve. My hope is that FD stays with the path they are on, and not follow a game that is already out there.

 

[Malpherian]

Links are always good (although I may have found one of those that you omitted).



Offline mode was removed before release - that ship sailed a long time ago (and is another reason that Solo will, in my opinion, *never* be removed). While anything may be *possible*, the *probability* of some of the more fundamentally game changing proposals being implemented is, in my opinion, low. The stated game design was published at the outset of the Kickstarter, over two and a half years ago - the game broadly follows that (with CQC as a new separate game element that does not directly affect the main game). While the game may still be being added to, I expect that the feature plan was firmed up quite some time ago. Indeed, in DBOBE's interview with Arstechnica at E3, he is again recorded as stating:



We've just had the Horizons announcement with more expansions due to follow (developing planetary landings further, leaving the pilot's seat [much later]), so I would imagine that "foreseeable future" is quite some time away.

ED's foreseeable future is about 1 year maybe 2... So maybe not so far away. Like I said we don;t even know what is in Horizon besides Planitary landings, Player owned bases, and Crafting, and hints at large player group oriented stuff.

So I mean really anything could happen in the next 2 years or 3.