The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[TobiasFuzz]

Nope. Diminishing returns are. I'm going to simply disagree with you on this.

I know of a particularly outstanding instance of one cmdr holding off an effort by the opposition that consisted of over a billion in bounties per day, at some points twice that, and once even thrice that amount. "They," were spending many manhours across multiple cmdr's to hit those amounts with nil realization that beyond a certain amount it was fruitless all the while he consistently played a highly curated set of BGS actions per tick and stopped them cold.

Time and again I've been involved with and/or seen similiar situations unfold.

Thanks for Proving my point.

Diminishing returns a not a factor, thats a constant general condition. And what factor does counter this? Time invested.

As i said, we are not looking at player groups, that have no clue of the BGS mechanic. Turning in bountys is only most effective in very special circumstances that seems to not occur in your example. The normal case is that two competent groups compete for inf. And the group that can invest more time in total will succeed.

 

[Murky Dregs]

Thanks for Proving my point.

Diminishing returns a not a factor, thats a constant general condition. And what factor does counter this? Time invested.

As i said, we are not looking at player groups, that have no clue of the BGS mechanic. Turning in bountys is only most effective in very special circumstances that seems to not occur in your example. The normal case is that two competent groups compete for inf. And the group that can invest more time in total will succeed.

Right, my example of a cmdr investing exponentially less hours to achieve a goal "proves," your point.

If you think that bounties are somehow subject to "special circumstances," well, you don't know bgs.

 

[terragrimtitan]

I think you are referring to what is commonly called Griefers, or PKers, and the game needs some, but too many can certainly be frustrating yes. In ED there can be circumstances (easily avoided ones) like CGs where there can be too many in one place, but overall (in part at least because they are so easily avoided) not enough in other areas.

This seems like a good time to bring up Bartle's taxonomy of player types. It attempts to explain the relationships between different playstyles. Bear in mind that any given person can be a mixture of different types, and you can take the test to find out what type of player you are (other theories and tests are available). I'm an AEKS.

I like the Bartle thing.

I've actually written an article myself recently trying to objectively look at Open and what a commander might encounter. Wherever we sit we will encounter different playstyles we might be able to deter them but we can't eliminate them.

 

[Riverside]

I like the Bartle thing.

I've actually written an article myself recently trying to objectively look at Open and what a commander might encounter. Wherever we sit we will encounter different playstyles we might be able to deter them but we can't eliminate them.

Got a link?

 

[terragrimtitan]

Got a link?

Here it is:

Open Perspectives

Open Player Perspectives Open play offers the potential of encountering other players and brings risks, competition, and opportunities to collaborate. This article attempts to provide an objective …

terragrimtitanxd.wordpress.com

 

[Riverside]

Here it is:

Open Perspectives

Open Player Perspectives Open play offers the potential of encountering other players and brings risks, competition, and opportunities to collaborate. This article attempts to provide an objective …

terragrimtitanxd.wordpress.com

Nice work

I'm definitely Cmdr Coop, I think you will probably get quite a bit of feedback that readers don't fit any of your definitions though, one of the issues with trying to put playstyles into boxes rather than a spectrum (as Bartle does with his two dimensions of action/interaction and player/environment). Cmdr Darwin is a subset or has a lot of overlap with Cmdr Magellan for example.

I like the PvP etiquette part too, I fly with report crimes off for example, it's just the polite thing to do as an experienced Cmdr flying in Open.

Seems incomplete as an objective analysis of the overall playerbase, for example some commentary on the reasons why some choose to play only with like-minded players in a private group (not because they are scared but because they are not interested in the potential for PvP during that activity, AX stuff for example).

 

[varonica]

Nice work

I'm definitely Cmdr Coop, I think you will probably get quite a bit of feedback that readers don't fit any of your definitions though,

Yeah, where is the category for CMDR's who don't carry weapons? None of my ships have weapons, it's a defensive tactic, I am well aware I would have no chance in any PvP encounter but if I carry weapons there's always the temptation just to see if I can fight my way out of it, that's always a mistake, and one I won't make if I simply have no weapons.

 

[TobiasFuzz]

I like the PvP etiquette part too, I fly with report crimes off for example, it's just the polite thing to do as an experienced Cmdr flying in Open.

I consider myself an experienced cmdr flying in open, but would never turn report crimes off. As weak as the npc security forces are, there are rare occasions were this guys had made the difference in a ganker encounter between winning or loosing.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Yeah, where is the category for CMDR's who don't carry weapons? None of my ships have weapons, it's a defensive tactic, I am well aware I would have no chance in any PvP encounter but if I carry weapons there's always the temptation just to see if I can fight my way out of it, that's always a mistake, and one I won't make if I simply have no weapons.

I was asking myself the same question. While shortly touching on the existence of a coop perspective in the opening paragraphs, this blog post again equates open = PvP and focuses solely on the combat-between-CMDRs aspect of the game, ignoring the possibly vast majority of truckers and explorers who just want to chill out in peace and maybe now and then meet a friendly random face. I leave it to Robert to point out the "majority play in open / minority engages in PvP" thing again.

I fly with report crimes off for example, it's just the polite thing to do as an experienced Cmdr flying in Open.

I consider myself an experienced cmdr flying in open, but would never turn report crimes off. As weak as the npc security forces are, there are rare occasions were this guys had made the difference in a ganker encounter between winning or loosing.

I have to agree with Tobias here and add that this is a questionable statement. What does crimes on have to do with experience or politeness? The hypothetical CMDR who attacks me randomly doesn't show me the "politeness" of asking me first if I agree to be attacked. The (again, hypothetical) ganker blowing my (hypothetical) unarmed explorer to bits in seconds doesn't show me the "courtesy" to talk to me at all. Something something don't do the crime if you can't do the time thing. The only time I turn crimes off is when I am in CZs with other players present. Other than that - if you don't want to get a bounty or can't handle NPC cops: Don't attack me.

 

[Riverside]

I have to agree with Tobias here and add that this is a questionable statement. What does crimes on have to do with experience or politeness? The hypothetical CMDR who attacks me randomly doesn't show me the politeness of asking me first if I agree to be attacked. The (again, hypothetical) ganker blowing my (hypothetical) unarmed explorer to bits in seconds doesn't show me the courtesy to talk to me at all. Something something don't do the crime if you can't do the time thing. The only time I turn crimes off is when I am in CZs with other players present. Other than that - if you don't want to get a bounty or can't handle NPC cops: Don't attack me.

Ok this is more basic an issue than I was expecting to have to answer, you want to know why I am polite to others even though they may not themselves act politely:

If someone acts in an impolite or inconsiderate way towards you, you don't like that, right? You want others to not shoot at you without consent. That's fair comment, but as you say sometimes you come across another Cmdr who does anyway. The game doesn't require either of you to be considerate, but you don't like it when others are inconsiderate to you & yet you feel you can be inconsiderate to others, as a kind of pre-emptive retaliation (if you had given it any thought at all before today).

The game doesn't require anyone to be polite or considerate to others, and as you say there's plenty of less considerate people out there. You can be thoughtless, inconsiderate, selfish even if you want (and plenty do), or you can choose not to be.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I am not questioning if you should be polite or not. I am, to everyone (usually). I am saying that crimes on or off isn't a metric of politeness.

 

[Riverside]

I am not questioning if you should be polite or not. I am, to everyone (usually). I am saying that crimes on or off isn't a metric of politeness.

I accept your opinion on this. Perhaps you will consider accepting in turn, that engaging another player in a game that has weapons & armour in it as a primary play activity is not considered any more impolite or inconsiderate by others than to start talking to a random stranger at a bus stop (to use another example that most but not all would not describe as inconsiderate or impolite but might be considered mildly annoying by some).

Opinions vary on this of course, play how you like.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

That and a notice that a line has been drawn and that actions that would trigger a security response cross that line.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Of course this is all subjective. And of course this is all nothing more than academic discourse, because open being a cesspit of murderhobos isn't going to change ever. This was sarcasm, by the way .

I wouldn't talking to a stranger in ED compare to chatting up a stranger at a bus stop though. At least in some part the game is marketed as social engagement (the MMO aspect, if you will), so a better comparison would be striking up a conversation to strangers at a party you are invited to.

 

[Sakashiro]

Remember, lawful PvP pilots want to be entertained, too. You can give them something to do by reporting crimes and making sure there's a bounty on your attacker's head.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Oh, and if I may dare to extend the party analogy a bit further (nothing more entertaining than an absurd comparison): I will be nice and polite to everyone at the party, even to the meanest drunk. But if he becomes offensive and starts spilling his drink over my clothes, I will summon the host and tell him that his buddy might have had enough to drink for a while (this is the "crimes on" part). This isn't because I am not polite to the drunk, it is because he made me smell like a hobo and said mean things about my mother, and maybe because he did have enough drinks for the night.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I accept your opinion on this. Perhaps you will consider accepting in turn, that engaging another player in a game that has weapons & armour in it as a primary play activity is not considered any more impolite or inconsiderate by others than to start talking to a random stranger at a bus stop (to use another example that most but not all would not describe as inconsiderate or impolite but might be considered mildly annoying by some).

Opinions vary on this of course, play how you like.

Game happens to have concept of crimes, so flying with reporting on is in no way bad sport.

 

[terragrimtitan]

Nice work

I'm definitely Cmdr Coop, I think you will probably get quite a bit of feedback that readers don't fit any of your definitions though, one of the issues with trying to put playstyles into boxes rather than a spectrum (as Bartle does with his two dimensions of action/interaction and player/environment). Cmdr Darwin is a subset or has a lot of overlap with Cmdr Magellan for example.

I like the PvP etiquette part too, I fly with report crimes off for example, it's just the polite thing to do as an experienced Cmdr flying in Open.

Seems incomplete as an objective analysis of the overall playerbase, for example some commentary on the reasons why some choose to play only with like-minded players in a private group (not because they are scared but because they are not interested in the potential for PvP during that activity, AX stuff for example).

Thanks that all makes sense. I appreciate the feedback and insights into your thinking

 

[terragrimtitan]

Yeah, where is the category for CMDR's who don't carry weapons? None of my ships have weapons, it's a defensive tactic, I am well aware I would have no chance in any PvP encounter but if I carry weapons there's always the temptation just to see if I can fight my way out of it, that's always a mistake, and one I won't make if I simply have no weapons.

Good point, I will note somewhere that sometimes cmdrs have no weapons( occasionally or consistently)

 

[terragrimtitan]

I consider myself an experienced cmdr flying in open, but would never turn report crimes off. As weak as the npc security forces are, there are rare occasions were this guys had made the difference in a ganker encounter between winning or loosing.

Fair point Tobias, definitely I've found there are mixed views on this. @Riverside crimes off you crimes on . Myself I'm split 25/75 depending on what I'm doing !