I want walking around my ship so I can say - "I'll be in my bunk."
The Planetary landing and planetside missions discussion Thread
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It's always been planned as a paid expansion, some of us have already paid for it via kickstarter or the expansion pass, so of course we need it!
I think it's going to be more than just walk around with nothing to do, I'm hoping it will introduce a whole load of new mission types. Also it would be a cool way to get to your other stored ships, get out of your ship and take a space taxi to another station
I think it's going to be more than just walk around with nothing to do, I'm hoping it will introduce a whole load of new mission types. Also it would be a cool way to get to your other stored ships, get out of your ship and take a space taxi to another station
LOL, shame they didn't do that when they planned multiplayer then eh?
Yes I do want to seemlessly fly to a planet's atmosphere and fight there like demonstrated in No Mans Sky. Landing maybe not needed.
I'd like to see the 'Walking About' part have a host of new features that adds to the atmosphere of the game - increase immersion. Just as long as they don't make it a bolt-on FPS clone, like it seems that other space-game is doing.
Imagine docking at a station with ill repute, walking off your ship and find your way to one of the many bars (good thing you just delivered a few tonnes of liquor). You see one table filled with three players and a take a seat. They are engaged in a game of low stakes poker. You ask what is the buy-in. A measly 100 credits. How about 2000 you say, whilst asking to be explained the rules again. It's been a while...
An hour later and 142000 credits richer, you thank the players for the company. As you are about to leave, you accidentally hear from the bartender that the chief mechanic should be up for a drink soon - he must be working overtime installing that scan-proof cargo compartment for some smuggler or other. This having peaked your interest, you head of to the engineering deck, locate the chief mechanic who is busy swearing in the coms at his very messy and dirty office. Someone it seems have not paid in full for his services. So he propose a deal. For a measly 250000cr he'll install a four ton scan-proof cargo compartment for you in your ship. Nobody will ever know it is there he promises - not even thieving pirates, much less the lazy law. As a bonus, if you could find and, um, 'expedite' the deadbeat who owed him for his last job, you'll get 50000cr back upon return and proof of his unfortunate demise.
---
Now that kind of interaction would make First Person walking about worth it. The possibilities are endless. But if they go down the well trodden FPS route, they might as well not bother.
Imagine docking at a station with ill repute, walking off your ship and find your way to one of the many bars (good thing you just delivered a few tonnes of liquor). You see one table filled with three players and a take a seat. They are engaged in a game of low stakes poker. You ask what is the buy-in. A measly 100 credits. How about 2000 you say, whilst asking to be explained the rules again. It's been a while...
An hour later and 142000 credits richer, you thank the players for the company. As you are about to leave, you accidentally hear from the bartender that the chief mechanic should be up for a drink soon - he must be working overtime installing that scan-proof cargo compartment for some smuggler or other. This having peaked your interest, you head of to the engineering deck, locate the chief mechanic who is busy swearing in the coms at his very messy and dirty office. Someone it seems have not paid in full for his services. So he propose a deal. For a measly 250000cr he'll install a four ton scan-proof cargo compartment for you in your ship. Nobody will ever know it is there he promises - not even thieving pirates, much less the lazy law. As a bonus, if you could find and, um, 'expedite' the deadbeat who owed him for his last job, you'll get 50000cr back upon return and proof of his unfortunate demise.
---
Now that kind of interaction would make First Person walking about worth it. The possibilities are endless. But if they go down the well trodden FPS route, they might as well not bother.
Do We really NEED planetary Landings and ship/Hangar walkabouts ?
YES .. YES We DO , Yes we most definitely DO !
YES .. YES We DO , Yes we most definitely DO !
I dont need it....... but I WANT IT!
on planets:
spy missions
rescue Missions
smuggling
walking through ancient relict alien cities
Hunt rare animals for zoo, private collection or restaurants
....
in ship/ base
visit social rooms/bars for gambling, picking the real good jobs, talking to other players without hardpoints deployed and to see exotic animals fighting in a pit betting on the survivor.
..... aaaah that would be a space life!
.... OH YES I WANT IT
on planets:
spy missions
rescue Missions
smuggling
walking through ancient relict alien cities
Hunt rare animals for zoo, private collection or restaurants
....
in ship/ base
visit social rooms/bars for gambling, picking the real good jobs, talking to other players without hardpoints deployed and to see exotic animals fighting in a pit betting on the survivor.
..... aaaah that would be a space life!
.... OH YES I WANT IT
I would say the ED NEEDS to have planets that players can land on.
Why?
1) In this day and age there is no excuse not to have this sort of thing.
2) What is space exploration if you cannot go down to the surface of a planet to explore?
3) Nearly every major sci-fi show/movie ever made had some form of planetary exploration, Star Trek is a very good example. It is a staple of the Sci-Fi genre and one that games like ED can finally achieve.
Why?
1) In this day and age there is no excuse not to have this sort of thing.
2) What is space exploration if you cannot go down to the surface of a planet to explore?
3) Nearly every major sci-fi show/movie ever made had some form of planetary exploration, Star Trek is a very good example. It is a staple of the Sci-Fi genre and one that games like ED can finally achieve.
A player runs out of fuel, but is able to make it to a planet and put up a rescue beacon. Any commander to can respond to the call and show up to give fuel for a fee. Lots of possibilities for interaction here. Planetary landings opens up so many possibilities for content, they just have to ensure there _is_ content.
Planetary Landings
So about planetary landings, I don't understand why FD didn't give them to us now and improve them with additional content later. I think this is actually a huge step backwards from the Frontier games which are 20 years old.
I can understand they want to do it right and want to have exciting content on the planets, but I think the things you could do in Frontier, together with some additions that I will outline down below, could have done the trick for now.
So, in Frontier you could:
-land on planetbound starports
-set down an MB4 mining machine to collect ore
-bomb and photograph enemy military installations that were spawned triggered by a random mission you took
I think these activities alone could have improved the game a lot. I am not a programmer but I think the technology to procedually generate landscapes (even detailed ones with forests etc.) is there.
Planetbound starports for example could have cheaper prices for commodities because you would save the extra money needed to ferry them to the starport. This would make the extra effort to land worthwhile (besides of course being fun and providing great visuals).
The MB4 mining machine could be a huge improvement for miners. Why isn't it in the game? There are metal rich and high metal content planets already in the game. Why not land there and deploy an MB4, come back later and pick up the ore? You could add the risk of somebody else finding it by scanning a planet and locating an MB4 or you can avoid it by making it so that the MB4 is bound to the specific transponder signiature of the owner and does not release it's content otherwise. Or maybe have two MB4 on offer: The cheap uncoded one or a higher priced secure version.
Military photograph and bombing missions: These were so much fun in Frontier: Swooping down from orbit, flying low around the planet to avoid enemy interceptors, dogfighting within the atmosphere. Why isn't this in the game converted 1:1 just with improved graphics and with the current flight model, that I find a lot of fun (even though I never had trouble with newtonian flight, you just had to do it right, see the great 5-minute Frontier combat tutorial by Isinona on YouTube)?
I think a lot of the complaints about the current mission design would stop if missions actually followed the Frontier model and gave you a distinct destination to go to instead of randomly searching USSes.
Example:
Greetings Commander,
our long range scout have discovered an enemy listening post on (insert planet name) in the (insert system name)-System. We need to know what the enemy is up to. We, the (insert faction military here) want you to go there and scan and photograph the facility from a low altitude. We need the information within (insert real time hours here) since further actions are already in motion.
After you succesfully completed the mission, there could be a random chance that you will be offered a follow up:
Thank you Commander. Now that we have analysed the data, we want you to go there again and destroy the facility....etc.
With planetary mining and military missions I think you would have enough to do already until further content is added.
You could also spice up exploration with planetary landings by adding another step to increase the payout:
1. basic scan of system
2. basic scan of the planetary bodies
3. scan of planetary bodies with detailed surface scanner
4. collecting a soil sample/probe drill/whatever from the planets surface
This way you had a reason to acutally land on the planets. The payout should be worth it however, depending on how much of a hassle it is to actually land or how much time it takes.
I think with these features alone you had enough to keep the players happy until things like maybe hunting, weather (with storms etc.) or whatnot is implemented.
At the moment, 20-year old Frontier was way ahead of this game in this regard.
So about planetary landings, I don't understand why FD didn't give them to us now and improve them with additional content later. I think this is actually a huge step backwards from the Frontier games which are 20 years old.
I can understand they want to do it right and want to have exciting content on the planets, but I think the things you could do in Frontier, together with some additions that I will outline down below, could have done the trick for now.
So, in Frontier you could:
-land on planetbound starports
-set down an MB4 mining machine to collect ore
-bomb and photograph enemy military installations that were spawned triggered by a random mission you took
I think these activities alone could have improved the game a lot. I am not a programmer but I think the technology to procedually generate landscapes (even detailed ones with forests etc.) is there.
Planetbound starports for example could have cheaper prices for commodities because you would save the extra money needed to ferry them to the starport. This would make the extra effort to land worthwhile (besides of course being fun and providing great visuals).
The MB4 mining machine could be a huge improvement for miners. Why isn't it in the game? There are metal rich and high metal content planets already in the game. Why not land there and deploy an MB4, come back later and pick up the ore? You could add the risk of somebody else finding it by scanning a planet and locating an MB4 or you can avoid it by making it so that the MB4 is bound to the specific transponder signiature of the owner and does not release it's content otherwise. Or maybe have two MB4 on offer: The cheap uncoded one or a higher priced secure version.
Military photograph and bombing missions: These were so much fun in Frontier: Swooping down from orbit, flying low around the planet to avoid enemy interceptors, dogfighting within the atmosphere. Why isn't this in the game converted 1:1 just with improved graphics and with the current flight model, that I find a lot of fun (even though I never had trouble with newtonian flight, you just had to do it right, see the great 5-minute Frontier combat tutorial by Isinona on YouTube)?
I think a lot of the complaints about the current mission design would stop if missions actually followed the Frontier model and gave you a distinct destination to go to instead of randomly searching USSes.
Example:
Greetings Commander,
our long range scout have discovered an enemy listening post on (insert planet name) in the (insert system name)-System. We need to know what the enemy is up to. We, the (insert faction military here) want you to go there and scan and photograph the facility from a low altitude. We need the information within (insert real time hours here) since further actions are already in motion.
After you succesfully completed the mission, there could be a random chance that you will be offered a follow up:
Thank you Commander. Now that we have analysed the data, we want you to go there again and destroy the facility....etc.
With planetary mining and military missions I think you would have enough to do already until further content is added.
You could also spice up exploration with planetary landings by adding another step to increase the payout:
1. basic scan of system
2. basic scan of the planetary bodies
3. scan of planetary bodies with detailed surface scanner
4. collecting a soil sample/probe drill/whatever from the planets surface
This way you had a reason to acutally land on the planets. The payout should be worth it however, depending on how much of a hassle it is to actually land or how much time it takes.
I think with these features alone you had enough to keep the players happy until things like maybe hunting, weather (with storms etc.) or whatnot is implemented.
At the moment, 20-year old Frontier was way ahead of this game in this regard.
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noldunar said:
As a programmer, I can say it kinda sorta is.
It is in the sense that procedurally generating planet surfaces would be similar to the technology used to procedurally generate star systems. It isn't in the sense that while a tractor-trailer and a sports car are similar since they have wheels and are powered by petrochemical fuels, being able to build one doesn't mean you necessarily have the tools to build the other.
To procedurally generate worlds to the same level of fidelity that Frontier seems to be going for with the rest of the game, a whole series of modular building assets need to be created, along with vehicles and traffic patterns, to say nothing of algorithms for terrain generation. To add any of the missions and features you want to see, Frontier would have to add and program whole series of ship modules and design gameplay around it balanced by the the space gameplay.
They can do this, and if I remember correctly, they've stated that they will do this. However, this is by no means a non-trivial bit of work. The 20-year old Frontier game that's 'way ahead in this regard' was doable in a single project in a single go because the fidelity of the simulation involved was much, much lower. Since adding all of this would almost be a seperate game on it's own, Frontier decided to release the first full working game (the space sim) on it's own before building the planet sim as an expansion pack.
I certainly understand that it won't be easy but even though it didn't look very nice and diverse in Frontier it still was very detailed. You could read the time on clock towers for example. And like you said, Frontier was basically programmed single handed by David Braben alone. Now there is a large team working on the game and planetary landings for me are the "trademark" of the Frontier series.
But I can see that populated planets with cities might be hard to do because of the things you described. But why not limit it to non-populated planets then at first. Just say that government regulations don't allow uncontrolled atmosphere entry and flight as well as landing for safety reasons (radiation, risk of crashes etc.) so the traffic on populated worlds would be restricted to stations. Unpopulated worlds on the other hand would certainly be easier to do since you don't need so much variety because of buildings etc.
And regarding the mission gameplay: That gameplay was already there in Frontier. It would just be nicer to look at. At the moment we have three station models and a few outposts. I think it would be sufficient if we had like 3 different military complexes (it would also make sense storywise: to save time and money bases are constructed using standard, modular, pre-fabricated modules, justs like Imperial Garrisons in Star Wars which are also pre-fabricated and look alike).
I am not asking for a very detailed world simulation where you could look at every car.
But just to be clear: I really like the game a lot and see myself playing it for a long time. I just don't buy into this "we want you to be able to do exciting things on planets so we hold off until we know exactly what it is you will be doing down there" because I think there would be enought to do already by implementing what was already there 20 years ago.
But I can see that populated planets with cities might be hard to do because of the things you described. But why not limit it to non-populated planets then at first. Just say that government regulations don't allow uncontrolled atmosphere entry and flight as well as landing for safety reasons (radiation, risk of crashes etc.) so the traffic on populated worlds would be restricted to stations. Unpopulated worlds on the other hand would certainly be easier to do since you don't need so much variety because of buildings etc.
And regarding the mission gameplay: That gameplay was already there in Frontier. It would just be nicer to look at. At the moment we have three station models and a few outposts. I think it would be sufficient if we had like 3 different military complexes (it would also make sense storywise: to save time and money bases are constructed using standard, modular, pre-fabricated modules, justs like Imperial Garrisons in Star Wars which are also pre-fabricated and look alike).
I am not asking for a very detailed world simulation where you could look at every car.
But just to be clear: I really like the game a lot and see myself playing it for a long time. I just don't buy into this "we want you to be able to do exciting things on planets so we hold off until we know exactly what it is you will be doing down there" because I think there would be enought to do already by implementing what was already there 20 years ago.
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Stations
6 station models, of which outposts seem to have replaced asteroid stations.
Also, I believe there would be more complaint if you were able to enter planetary atmospheres, but not see anything interesting.
As I see it, there is no possibility to distinguish between the mechanics of entering atmospheres - just like there is no difference in entering a UCS / Space station. The "entering" is in practice an animated loading screen to prepare the event behind the curtain. So either all bodies must be enterable, or none.
If you were to transfer the relative level of detail seen on Frontier and later on Frontier II to Elite: Dangerous, one would to expect to see buildings, "living" land and sea with animals etc, weather mechanics and atmosphere simulation, traffic... I could go on.
Personally, I'd like them to develop a system for it before it is released, instead of seeing placeholders - that was for the Alpha-Beta-Gamma period.
6 station models, of which outposts seem to have replaced asteroid stations.
Also, I believe there would be more complaint if you were able to enter planetary atmospheres, but not see anything interesting.
As I see it, there is no possibility to distinguish between the mechanics of entering atmospheres - just like there is no difference in entering a UCS / Space station. The "entering" is in practice an animated loading screen to prepare the event behind the curtain. So either all bodies must be enterable, or none.
If you were to transfer the relative level of detail seen on Frontier and later on Frontier II to Elite: Dangerous, one would to expect to see buildings, "living" land and sea with animals etc, weather mechanics and atmosphere simulation, traffic... I could go on.
Personally, I'd like them to develop a system for it before it is released, instead of seeing placeholders - that was for the Alpha-Beta-Gamma period.
I'm not a programmer myself, but I've read about how games are made a lot (out of interest) and I think you're underestimating the complexity of the task.
The problem is, the more realistic and detailed things are, the more they have to be designed by a staff of artists (and good ones aren't cheap), and especially for procedural generation, they have to be designed as more complex objects that "fit in" to the game world with more degrees of complexity where things can go wrong (hence, you also need more staff for Q&A as well as art staff and programmers).
It's not so much that it's more difficult, just that it takes a lot, lot more time and manpower to render essentially the same environment in more detail.
That said, I think they will do it, but you'll just have to be patient, we probably won't get this sort of thing fully in the game for at least another year.
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Because we didn't back them with $70.000.000 and inversely that is why we actually have a game not a ship in a bottle
While i crave planetary landings i dont beleive they should be rushed, It needs to be implemented correctly.
I doubt it'll be easy to get the gameplay right and i would love to see something inplemented well, i would as a minimum like Kerbol (with far) kind of atmospheric landings.
From the jist of this topic about more content:
The one thing i really miss from the old elite days is the milary attack xyz missions especially once they started giving you nukes
These missions would not require planetary landings to be inplemented, we have tonnes of asteroids and bases to play with already, spawing a capship or base in a random belt nearby would be fairly straightforward.
I think this would be on the top of my wishlist!
W
I doubt it'll be easy to get the gameplay right and i would love to see something inplemented well, i would as a minimum like Kerbol (with far) kind of atmospheric landings.
From the jist of this topic about more content:
The one thing i really miss from the old elite days is the milary attack xyz missions especially once they started giving you nukes
These missions would not require planetary landings to be inplemented, we have tonnes of asteroids and bases to play with already, spawing a capship or base in a random belt nearby would be fairly straightforward.
I think this would be on the top of my wishlist!
W
To be fare, the mission system in ED is pretty pants. The USS system should have died a death with the Beta.
1) Bounty hunting mission should be drop into ever USS you fund, but rather scan every ship in the system, and interdict the target. (Add escape pods for scooping for extra rewards. Make escape pods only jettison when hull is destroyed, not FD and PP modules)
2) Black box recovery should not be "stolen", it should either be rescue work, or cover op recovery.
3) "Must be stolen" mission are stupid and should be removed in favor of demands for black market goods (how you come by them is not important).
4) Federal and Imperial (and alliance?) rank quests should be less generic. This is the opportunity for the writers to get creative with mini-campaigns.
1) Bounty hunting mission should be drop into ever USS you fund, but rather scan every ship in the system, and interdict the target. (Add escape pods for scooping for extra rewards. Make escape pods only jettison when hull is destroyed, not FD and PP modules)
2) Black box recovery should not be "stolen", it should either be rescue work, or cover op recovery.
3) "Must be stolen" mission are stupid and should be removed in favor of demands for black market goods (how you come by them is not important).
4) Federal and Imperial (and alliance?) rank quests should be less generic. This is the opportunity for the writers to get creative with mini-campaigns.