The Problem with Game Balance

[Morbad]

You're missing the point. With balance you meke clear it's actually worth trying. Without it's a deterrence to even bother.

It's not difficult get any ship in the game and to make it the best it can be.

It is difficult to learn to fly it more competently than most.

Jepp. Module stacking is the problem.

Ban it.

This would mostly just turn every ship into a multi-purpose swiss army knife of a vessel, and casual combatants would still be getting their butts handed to them just as fast, if not faster.

TTK would go down though.

 

[Clifra Jones]

Ultimately: NPCs vs CMDRs
In an ideal world, in the right circumstances NPCs should almost be indistinguishable from CMDRs. Thus defending yourself from a good NPC and another CMDR should be a similar hurdle. At the moment a typical PvP CMDR will prove to be a far far more dangerous foe than any NPC.

And I believe this is a root cause of the issues we have. Early/new players are not forced to develop any kind of fighting skills to survive in this game. This whole PVP/PVE argmument preceeds Engineering. We like to say, space is dangerous, but it really is not. When in a previous update NPC were strengthened the outcry was deafining. Which makes doing it now nearly impossible.

It also adds to the crying that void opal mining pays too much, I have run into several NPC pirates while mining opals and they were all pathetically impotant! If miners had to take the risk of encountering some seriously dangerous pirates then the payouts would be seen as appropriate.

 

[Clifra Jones]

What? That's gong to need some explanation.

As for OP, I'm with you on C&P, but the scary part is Frontier just revamped it in Beyond, so I doubt they're interested in doing it again.

I'm absolutely opposed to rebalancing engineering in relation to non-engineered ships, but wouldn't be opposed to some tweeks within engineering. The game progressed with new content, those who choose not to advance should not limit those who do.

I'm also really hesitant to get behind any balancing crusades, as I don't think good games require everything to be balanced, and have actually seen very fun games go downhill fast as everything was homogenized in the name of balance.

If something's broken, fix it, but don't assume it's broken because it is not balanced. I'm fine with a combat ship destroying a ship built with no consideration to combat survival, for instance.

As for modes, they made a game where everyone regardless of mode or platform influence the same universe. Buyer beware. It is core to the game, and I do not see a reason to change anything in the name of fairness or balance. It's a representation of a massive society spread across a galaxy, there will be influences out of your control, and I'm fine with that.

Spot On!

 

[Clifra Jones]

People shouldn't be punished because they don't want to go to Dav's Hope and log off/on 100 times. You are no longer playing a game at that point or having fun.

But it is a major part of the game and now wiht the Mat Dealers it is not hard nor time consuming to gather what you need to Engineer a module. You don't even have to travel to an engineer unles you want experimentals.

I'm sorry, for the small and limited amount of time and places you "might" run into a PVPer in this game this argument just smacks of "WHAAA! I don't want too!"

 

[Clifra Jones]

I think standard ships should be a bit tankier. Ideally medium-high ships (particularity the T-series) should be losing modules and cargo then limping away, rather than just popping.

Ships are far too takier now. This is why fixed weapons such as multi-cannons are so impotant. You have to land at least 1/4 to 1/3 of a clip of MC rounds before you even scratch the paint on some NPCs. That is not easy with fixed MCs.

Now modules IMO are too hardened. Youy nearly pop the hull before thet go down.

 

[Bill Clement]

Everything OP mentions is available to every player so I see no problem with balance. I think the two strident camps are only really features of the forum; I've never been aware of them in actual game play.

Repped, but I disagree. I was fine just playing Elite Dangerous. I rather enjoyed that game!

I've spent most of my game time in unengineered ships. I've spent most of that time pretty much immune to other players. (I've never met Morbad in game... ) But engineering has given normally laughably inept gankers an 'I win' button against unengineered ships. Yes, engineering is available to me, too, but I find the grind, the meaningless, unnecessarily large number and variety of materials, the randomness of finding those materials, the additional randomness of upgrades and the bizzare, often counter intuitive effect of the special effects that seem to make or break meta builds utterly tedious.

Isnt that just like life?

Yes, very much like real life. I enjoy entertainment products like video games because they generally don't resemble real life. I don't get PTSD from playing CoD, I don't burn alive playing IL-2 and until fairly recently I didn't have to work harder than I do in my real world job just to achieve a mediocre ship build in Elite!

It's not THAT hard to engineer ships anymore, let's not balance the game around people who can't be bothered to play the game.

Relax mon ami, the chances of FD rebalancing engineering are absolutely zero at this point. They seriously messed up a superb opportunity to introduce customisation to our game, now they're fully committed to the system as it stands, no matter how much it destroys the game's balance... [sour]

But it is a major part of the game and now wiht the Mat Dealers it is not hard nor time consuming to gather what you need to Engineer a module. You don't even have to travel to an engineer unles you want experimentals.

I'm sorry, for the small and limited amount of time and places you "might" run into a PVPer in this game this argument just smacks of "WHAAA! I don't want too!"

"Whaa, I don't want to"? Yep, you've got that right! [yesnod]

I'm in my middle years Clifra, my time is limited and valuable to me. I enjoy frittering it away playing toy spaceships, it's fun and a welcome distraction from my real life, which is filled with stress, monotony and a modicum of actual danger.
Engineering is a huge waste of my time. It doesn't get me anything I didn't have before- once my go fasts are engineered, they will once again be able to outrun gankers and NPCs, once my fighters and warships are engineered they'll be equal to gankers and NPCs, no matter how much my traders are engineered they'll still be utterly useless against gankers and NPCs! [haha]
The issue is I'm wasting ridiculous amounts of game time on dull, repetitive, boring tasks, just to improve a select few of my fleet back up to a standard that's nowhere near as good as they were before engineering, relative to the opposition I usually face.
This is not fun, it does not distract me from my dull and boring life, it adds considerably to the dullness, tedium and boredom I struggle against.
Read the OP. Darth's right. I'm at the stage I'm actively avoiding other players because I happen to know where those 'limited amount of times and places' are. I don't fancy becoming a victim of someone else's 'emergent content' because my ship is utterly outclassed by their murderwagon.

You really haven't thought it through, Clifra. I'm one less PvP opportunity for you in those very limited time spaces, precisely because engineering is such a colossal pita. If I'm not alone, then your beloved engineering is killing PvP. It might be hurting the broader game as well...

 

[Tromador]

The thing that needs fixing is not C&P, or power play, or engineering, but bounty hunting.

Average PvP pirates and/or murdering psychopaths can easily find targets in open. Random T6 (or whatever) zappy zappy, kill, kill, evil laugh and fly off.

If there were a decent mechanism by which a player could then track down, interdict and engage the pirate player, then not only would there be a richer PvP experience for all those who like it, but the possibility of some real justice appears along with an appropriate level of risk for being bad.

Bounty hunting could overnight become the purest form of PvP, for one's targets would never be toothless cargo scows and one would always expect a real fight.

So yeah, make it so that the career criminals can be hunted down with ease (increasing ease, the more notorious they are) and you naturally create a better open experience. You might even attract more traders into open because they have some confidence in the vigilante justice of the bounty hunters.

 

[dekot]

Repped, but I disagree. I was fine just playing Elite Dangerous. I rather enjoyed that game!

I've spent most of my game time in unengineered ships. I've spent most of that time pretty much immune to other players. (I've never met Morbad in game... ) But engineering has given normally laughably inept gankers an 'I win' button against unengineered ships. Yes, engineering is available to me, too, but I find the grind, the meaningless, unnecessarily large number and variety of materials, the randomness of finding those materials, the additional randomness of upgrades and the bizzare, often counter intuitive effect of the special effects that seem to make or break meta builds utterly tedious.



Yes, very much like real life. I enjoy entertainment products like video games because they generally don't resemble real life. I don't get PTSD from playing CoD, I don't burn alive playing IL-2 and until fairly recently I didn't have to work harder than I do in my real world job just to achieve a mediocre ship build in Elite!



Relax mon ami, the chances of FD rebalancing engineering are absolutely zero at this point. They seriously messed up a superb opportunity to introduce customisation to our game, now they're fully committed to the system as it stands, no matter how much it destroys the game's balance... [sour]



"Whaa, I don't want to"? Yep, you've got that right! [yesnod]

I'm in my middle years Clifra, my time is limited and valuable to me. I enjoy frittering it away playing toy spaceships, it's fun and a welcome distraction from my real life, which is filled with stress, monotony and a modicum of actual danger.
Engineering is a huge waste of my time. It doesn't get me anything I didn't have before- once my go fasts are engineered, they will once again be able to outrun gankers and NPCs, once my fighters and warships are engineered they'll be equal to gankers and NPCs, no matter how much my traders are engineered they'll still be utterly useless against gankers and NPCs! [haha]
The issue is I'm wasting ridiculous amounts of game time on dull, repetitive, boring tasks, just to improve a select few of my fleet back up to a standard that's nowhere near as good as they were before engineering, relative to the opposition I usually face.
This is not fun, it does not distract me from my dull and boring life, it adds considerably to the dullness, tedium and boredom I struggle against.
Read the OP. Darth's right. I'm at the stage I'm actively avoiding other players because I happen to know where those 'limited amount of times and places' are. I don't fancy becoming a victim of someone else's 'emergent content' because my ship is utterly outclassed by their murderwagon.

You really haven't thought it through, Clifra. I'm one less PvP opportunity for you in those very limited time spaces, precisely because engineering is such a colossal pita. If I'm not alone, then your beloved engineering is killing PvP. It might be hurting the broader game as well...

What exactly is your point? Just play in solo or a PG, all your gripes are solved. We're talking about balance here, you have neither the time nor interest to participate in pvp, umm.. okay.

 

[Sylveria]

Every CMDR is part of that 'E'.

Yet not every "E" is a CMDR (human player), either.

Hell, even EVE Online which is intentionally "Everyone Versus Everyone" doesn't even go that far.

The basis of this game is indeed PvE. PvP is just icing on that cake, no matter how badly some want to believe otherwise.

PvP isn't "the game", although it can be "part of" the game.

 

[Tel Prydain]

Engineering is totally borked at this stage and nothing less than a total overhaul is likely to fix it. The advantages from engineers need to be smaller (tweaks, not 50-150% improvements), and the downsides need to equal or exceed the bonuses. Engineering needs to be a choice to customize a ship, not a mandatory step required to poke your nose into open. And most of the 'experimental' effects should be a static, single level path - not something added on top of something else. Interestingly, FDev got this mostly right with the tech traders... all they need to do is bring the engineers in line.
As part of that work you'd need to reset all current and legacy modules... The screaming and crying would be like satan's carol singing. At this point it'd be easier to finish the 2019 DLC, then make a new client where all commanders start fresh and the universe is updated with current scientific data, and call that ED2 (free for LTP owners). It would let them fix the crazy credit explosion issue at the same time.

Exactly. Let's not pretend the RNGIneer grind is remotely fun.

It's almost like it was designed to happen slowly over the course of your normal play, rather than 10 hours of focused grind...
Also, the era of RNGIneers is over... I hesitate to call the new system better, but at the very least it's not particularity random and is therefore much less infuriating.

 

[House0fDerp]

What exactly is your point? Just play in solo or a PG, all your gripes are solved. We're talking about balance here, you have neither the time nor interest to participate in pvp, umm.. okay.

Isn't the whole contention here in part because the op claims those same modes are problematic to balance and wants to limit or restrict them in some way?

It's almost like it was designed to happen slowly over the course of your normal play, rather than 10 hours of focused grind...

I'd agree with that if it was built in such a way as to work by engaging in normal play. As it turns out many had to modify their play in one way or another to run the gauntlet of engineering.

 

[dekot]

Isn't the whole contention here in part because the op claims those same modes are problematic to balance and wants to limit or restrict them in some way?



I'd agree with that if it was built in such a way as to work by engaging in normal play. As it turns out many had to modify their play in one way or another to run the gauntlet of engineering.

I don't think OP was talking about the literal separation of modes. He was talking about the imbalance of pvp vs pve.

 

[House0fDerp]

I don't think OP was talking about the literal separation of modes. He was talking about the imbalance of pvp vs pve.

Op specifically calls for the separation of modes though.

As if they want people to log into one of 2 separate galaxies or "repackage the game as two games" as they put it.

 

[Morbad]

Yet not every "E" is a CMDR (human player), either.

"E" is environment. No environment in the game consists solely of another player character, but most are influenced by them, and some feature them prominently.

The basis of this game is indeed PvE. PvP is just icing on that cake, no matter how badly some want to believe otherwise.

PvP isn't "the game", although it can be "part of" the game.

Remove other players from the equation, you have no BGS, the combat aspects of the game feel more akin to mining than fighting, and risk largely evaporates.

If anything, the game relies too much on player characters filling all the holes for a standalone PvE experience.

 

[dekot]

Op specifically calls for the separation of modes though.

As if they want people to log into one of 2 separate galaxies or "repackage the game as two games" as they put it.

Uh yeah you're right. But that other guy was just complaining about gankers and how he doesn't want to engineer his ships. I don't see what his point was in regard to the immediate discussions he was replying to.

 

[Bill Clement]

What exactly is your point? Just play in solo or a PG, all your gripes are solved. We're talking about balance here, you have neither the time nor interest to participate in pvp, umm.. okay.

[haha] What's the point of entering a thread about game balance and modes, just to crow 'go play solo, n00b!'? That's not an argument, it's not even making a point!

My point is that until recently I was actively seeking out human interaction, now I'm actively avoiding it. My point is that until recently I spent my time in the fascinating realm of pretend spaceships is situations where I was very much at risk of PvP of various types. I've been looking for a 'real' pirate for over four years now, I very much enjoy evading (to the point of trolling) salt miners, some CGs used to be fun and challenging competitions against other traders, amongst other activities. The trouble is there's no downside to engineering. My go fasts can't outrun battleships, my warships are outclassed by engineered fighters. Without engineering I'm at a terrific disadvantage. That means what time I have I spend on engineering, rather than flying fast ships, or competing with other players.

My point is the game is so unbalanced it's comical!

My point is I don't want to stop playing, so I'm grinding my Asp off, just to get back to the place we were all in before engineers hit. You remember? When some ships were fast enough to escape, where others were well armed and protected enough to stand and fight?

Engineering doesn't achieve anything against engineered ships, but it makes ships without engineering obsolete. That means spending obscene amounts of time 'upgrading' to a standard that was already there when the game began.

My interest is in spending my time competing with other players; engineering is preventing that from happening.

I don't have enough time to engineer my ships effectively, that means I'm not getting into PvP, that affects you and me both, Dekot!

But yeah, "ummm...ok".

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Some questions for the OP:

What does balance look like to you? Is it where every ship is equally as good as every other ship at every in-game task? Where experienced players are somehow handicapped when fighting a new one?

What does this "swinging together" harmony between PvP and PvE look like to you?

Stipulating that the sudden removal of an entire season's worth of content is unfeasible, what would be your solution for "fixing" things like engineers and the discrepancies caused by the modes? (I don't necessarily see that either are broken, to be honest- but you mentioned them)

Elite is a game of enormous complexity, played by a diverse community of wildly varying playstyles. I think- and this is merely my opinion- that any game can only cater to such a diverse crowd so much before rendering itself bland to the point of unplayability. Removing the consequences of eating a rebuy screen at the hands of another player or having a PvP toggle will appease some, yes- but how much hand-holding can a developer put into a game before it's been puffballed into irrelevance?

At the end of the day, I don't think that a game like Elite can ever be "balanced" in the sense that most people mean when they call for such. In a way, it's already balanced: the exact same tools and choices are present for each player, and each player will get from the game largely what they themselves invest into it. And if not, well...

TANSTAAFL.

 

[dekot]

[haha] What's the point of entering a thread about game balance and modes, just to crow 'go play solo, n00b!'? That's not an argument, it's not even making a point!

My point is that until recently I was actively seeking out human interaction, now I'm actively avoiding it. My point is that until recently I spent my time in the fascinating realm of pretend spaceships is situations where I was very much at risk of PvP of various types. I've been looking for a 'real' pirate for over four years now, I very much enjoy evading (to the point of trolling) salt miners, some CGs used to be fun and challenging competitions against other traders, amongst other activities. The trouble is there's no downside to engineering. My go fasts can't outrun battleships, my warships are outclassed by engineered fighters. Without engineering I'm at a terrific disadvantage. That means what time I have I spend on engineering, rather than flying fast ships, or competing with other players.

My point is the game is so unbalanced it's comical!

My point is I don't want to stop playing, so I'm grinding my Asp off, just to get back to the place we were all in before engineers hit. You remember? When some ships were fast enough to escape, where others were well armed and protected enough to stand and fight?

Engineering doesn't achieve anything against engineered ships, but it makes ships without engineering obsolete. That means spending obscene amounts of time 'upgrading' to a standard that was already there when the game began.

My interest is in spending my time competing with other players; engineering is preventing that from happening.

I don't have enough time to engineer my ships effectively, that means I'm not getting into PvP, that affects you and me both, Dekot!

But yeah, "ummm...ok".

Man just go engineer your ships, it's not that bad. At this point, your refusal to do so is based purely on principle.

 

[Sylveria]

Man just go engineer your ships, it's not that bad. At this point, your refusal to do so is based purely on principle.

Except, if Engineering was part of the core game, and not Horizons as a separate purchase, you'd have a point. You don't.

That's why Engineers is considered arguably "Pay To Win" as a feature. For those who bought the base game and have no interest in planetary landings, etc., it's a valid point. Doesn't matter how "cheap" it is or isn't, it's purely a matter of fact.

If one plays in Open with those who have engineered ships they're at a tremendous disadvantage if they haven't bought Horizons.

(I personally have both, but I understand the validity of the argument, too)

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It's not difficult get any ship in the game and to make it the best it can be.

It is difficult to learn to fly it more competently than most.



.....

The game has told me all the time that it's extremely grindy and a mere stroke of luck to get these ships. It may be easier now, but then again, I could do it out of the box before engineers so why would I bother grinding for stuff I already was able to do, just because they thought the power creep was a good idea? Waste of good time I can spend elsewhere.