PvP The problem with piracy

Hi all. Given that I don't find mining particarly engaging, I decided a couple of weeks ago to try my hand at piracy. Just to be clear, by piracy I mean attempting to rob other players of their valuables. I have had little enough success. I believe there to be two main reasons for this.

The first is clogging. Now I don't want to start a debate about this, I'm simply relating my experiences, which is that roughly 40% of my targets log out, often immediately after interdiction and before I have a chance to issue my demands.

The second is lack of communication, and I believe the problem isn't surly, taciturn commanders, but the fact that in the heat of the moment (you are carrying 200+ tonnes of LTDs and are inderdicted), it is VERY easy to miss messages. I do not hold commanders responsible for this. When interdicted myself, checking messages is the last thing on my mind.

I do see a partial solution, to the second problem at least. I would like to ask Fdev to examine the notifications for player to player comms. The COVAS currently alerts the player to mission critical messages with an audible alert, could this not be done for player comms? Perhaps only for the first message recieved by an individual, so as to prevent a flurry of annoying alerts. Perhaps a larger, more prominent on screen text alert could be used.

Thanks for reading
 
Add to the communication chaos, in a system like Borann, the messages are scrolling past very quickly. I was pirated in there and made the conscious effort to look for demands directed at me in the chat box. I didn't see anything but not 100% sure about that.
 
While this is a problem with piracy, it really isn't the problem with piracy.

Logging is more of a problem, but short of a player being up for being robbed or Frontier overhauling the way they handle matchmaking and logging, its also one that's unlikely to be fixable.

Now, players who are game... but also reasonably competent in that they're not flying papier-mache boxes filled with cargo racks and defended by nothing more than scotch tape and bubblegum, are generally perfectly capable of just shrugging and leaving should they run afoul of a pirate in Open.

Either way you slice it, you're pretty much entirely reliant on a player deciding they're better off handing over some amount of cargo and not going for that earliest possible high wake rather than having anything that you can reasonably threaten them with to dissuade them from running.
 
I've found direct messages heavy on the pirate flair increases the likelihood traders cooperate or at least engage in communications. That an reasonable demands like 10-20 tons. Here is my usual exchange.

"Ahoy ye son of a biscuit eater! Weigh anchor an drop 20 tons of yer finest booty or face me cannons!"

Also, it's common courtesy to thank them if they comply. "Ye paid fer me grog 'n wenches. Yo ho ho, ye be free to go"
 
While this is a problem with piracy, it really isn't the problem with piracy.

Logging is more of a problem, but short of a player being up for being robbed or Frontier overhauling the way they handle matchmaking and logging, its also one that's unlikely to be fixable.

Now, players who are game... but also reasonably competent in that they're not flying papier-mache boxes filled with cargo racks and defended by nothing more than scotch tape and bubblegum, are generally perfectly capable of just shrugging and leaving should they run afoul of a pirate in Open.

Either way you slice it, you're pretty much entirely reliant on a player deciding they're better off handing over some amount of cargo and not going for that earliest possible high wake rather than having anything that you can reasonably threaten them with to dissuade them from running.
I agree that without highly specialised loadouts its nigh on impossible to pirate canny, well set-up commanders. I don't see this as being an insurmountable obstacle however. The reason being, as long as there is lucrative mining/trade to be done you will have a steady stream of newer players racing to get their hands on that shiny 'conda, which they will not have a clue how to use or set up.

As to your point about cloggers, well yeah I agree completely. It goes a long way to put people off piracy. I have no solution to that particular problem.
 
I've found direct messages heavy on the pirate flair increases the likelihood traders cooperate or at least engage in communications. That an reasonable demands like 10-20 tons. Here is my usual exchange.

"Ahoy ye son of a biscuit eater! Weigh anchor an drop 20 tons of yer finest booty or face me cannons!"

Also, it's common courtesy to thank them if they comply. "Ye paid fer me grog 'n wenches. Yo ho ho, ye be free to go"
Being a console peasant it's hard for me to type that fast lol
 
I'd like to see direct player message in the center of the screen, like when you have mission critical message ( in blue) . Ins'nt local chat already sperated from system chat ?

I agree to the idea , when I 1st got interdicted at some CG I just boosted over and over, i'v only seen after my death that the guy were actually talking to me :p.

For the log out thing , I dont know, i'd have loved that your ship stay like 1 min into the game after you log out if some player share instance with you, but dont know if it's possible on technical basis.

I agree that log-out of the game is to easy when engaged in some PvP interaction.
 
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For the log out thing , I dont know, i'd loved that your ship stay like 1 min into the game after you log out if some player share instance with you, but dont know if it's possible on technical basis.
This is absolutely what's needs to happen and I'm willing to bet it would be rather easy to do but Frontier are borderline incompetent so 🤷‍♂️


Commanders, there are some easy work arounds for these problems other than the Clogging.
Use pacifiers/frags, a super pen rail and a FSD disrupt/grom bomb.
If they don't respond to your demands just drop their shields and snipe out their drives. If you can't get it done before they start to charge their FSD, hit em with a FSD disrupt/grom bomb.

Here's my pirate build for anyone who needs it.
 
Just as players who are destroyed at random for no reason have to just deal with it, so too those who seek to attack for no reason need to just deal with it if their targets suddenly disappear.

Having said that I am 100% in favour of making attacks that are in the spirit of the game a lot more clear in terms of their intentions.
I like the idea of a more imperative messaging system. I know from my own experience in BGS missions that more clear communications between both sides would be very useful.
 
Just as players who are destroyed at random for no reason have to just deal with it, so too those who seek to attack for no reason need to just deal with it if their targets suddenly disappear.
Cheating vs playing the game as intended.
You're a real winner Maggie 👊

Let's start a another Clogging vs ganking thread 🥳
 
Honestly the game needs bindable comms hotkeys. Localised messages too. Just a bunch of standard, pre-set messages like dozens of other games have on their comms shortcuts that just send your current target a short message with orders to stand and deliver or whatnot.

Whatever the messages are, have them localised. I've interdicted people and got a bunch of... I think it was dutch back over the comms. I just let them go 'cause if I can't communicate then I can't issue demands.

Bonus points if you make NPCs actually respond to them too, like some traders actually responding to being browbeaten and dropping some cargo, others trying to run, and so on.
 
Honestly the game needs bindable comms hotkeys. Localised messages too. Just a bunch of standard, pre-set messages like dozens of other games have on their comms shortcuts that just send your current target a short message with orders to stand and deliver or whatnot.

Whatever the messages are, have them localised. I've interdicted people and got a bunch of... I think it was dutch back over the comms. I just let them go 'cause if I can't communicate then I can't issue demands.

Bonus points if you make NPCs actually respond to them too, like some traders actually responding to being browbeaten and dropping some cargo, others trying to run, and so on.
You can map a key to type out a message on your keyboard.
I use Corsair icue and hit the G6 key on my K95 keyboard and it types out "arr! Drop 40 diamonds or die!"

By the way, good fighting tonight CMDR. I think I saw you in the fray in Riedquat with code.
 
You can map a key to type out a message on your keyboard.
I use Corsair icue and hit the G6 key on my K95 keyboard and it types out "arr! Drop 40 diamonds or die!"

By the way, good fighting tonight CMDR. I think I saw you in the fray in Riedquat with code.
As someone who played FE2, Riedquat not being anarchy has been hurting my immersions since I got this game. It's like Achenar not being imperial.
 
I'll be up-front, I say this from the perspective of someone who's rarely in busy open systems to be pirated, let alone in Open anyway. But the issue of Clogging isn't the "main problem", rather, it's a symptom of a bigger issue; that the victim of a pirate and/or combatant has zero bargaining power, and no ability to identify the difference between a pirate and a combatant, until it's too late.

It's important to remember that the whole "exit through menu" which a lot of people see as clogging is legitimate. That it hurts Piracy is simply because from an objective perspective, a hauler/trader/non-combatant simply cannot win a fight with a prepared combatant. They will always be more armed and armoured, and there's nothing a hauler can do about that, except be equally armed/armoured, and then you no longer have a non-com vessel and entirely defeat the purpose of whatever you were trying to achieve.

Compare against PvE piracy; specifically, Hijack missions. In these, you're given a target and some cargo you need to loot from it. You destroy that ship, you're nixed; mission failed. Until you're in full control of all mission cargo, guarantee, as the person running that mission you want that ship alive. The key aspect of this is tanking the target ship and it's escorts long enough while you get the cargo out of them.

In other words, all the risk is worn by the one pirating, and none of the risk worn by the target, until the pirating is complete.

No such guarantee exists for the victim of an interdiction; you're either:
  • Idealistically; going to walk away with slightly less cargo (the win-win of piracy)
  • Going to start walking away with less cargo, but be killed anyway (the win-lose of piracy)
  • Just be killed outright (the lose-lose of piracy)

As soon as that interdiction starts, there is no guarantee which of these scenarios a non-com player is getting themselves into, so you have to assume worst-case scenario; you're going to die and lose all your cargo, so instinctively, the only chance you have to control the outcome is to clog. What would fix that?

  • single-purpose defensive modules (i.e can't be re-employed sensibly in an aggressive role; an example from EVE is warp-core stabilisers... allows you to "ignore" warp disruptor points, but also trashes your sensor lock speed, meaning you can't shoot back quickly)
  • Additionally to above, if there's "overriding" type modules, then there should be aggressive counter-measures requiring fitting, so as to weaken the combat ability of an interdictor
  • Some way to up-front determine whether the interdictor plans to kill or simply pirate the target; maybe even two interdictor variants with advantages to either type of activity.
  • If plausible, a way to make the mechanics like PvE; where all the risk during the act of piracy is worn by the agressor, not the defender.
 
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But the issue of Clogging isn't the "main problem"

That's a very insightful post, and some good ideas there.
I like the idea of purely defensive weapons that incur little to no "cargo tax" as an excellent means of solving the issue.
Something that was costly, but weighed little and did something that was not permanent but would enable you to escape would be an excellent solution in my book. Obviously we wouldn't want it to be just a simple button but rather something requiring a bit of skill or timing to make work
 
Hi all. Given that I don't find mining particarly engaging, I decided a couple of weeks ago to try my hand at piracy. Just to be clear, by piracy I mean attempting to rob other players of their valuables. I have had little enough success. I believe there to be two main reasons for this.

The first is clogging. Now I don't want to start a debate about this, I'm simply relating my experiences, which is that roughly 40% of my targets log out, often immediately after interdiction and before I have a chance to issue my demands.

The second is lack of communication, and I believe the problem isn't surly, taciturn commanders, but the fact that in the heat of the moment (you are carrying 200+ tonnes of LTDs and are inderdicted), it is VERY easy to miss messages. I do not hold commanders responsible for this. When interdicted myself, checking messages is the last thing on my mind.

I do see a partial solution, to the second problem at least. I would like to ask Fdev to examine the notifications for player to player comms. The COVAS currently alerts the player to mission critical messages with an audible alert, could this not be done for player comms? Perhaps only for the first message recieved by an individual, so as to prevent a flurry of annoying alerts. Perhaps a larger, more prominent on screen text alert could be used.

Thanks for reading
May i suggest being a pirate in solo play first as PvP will always have those who logout during combat....i became ELITE simply by destroying as many pirates around mining belts and cashed up on minerals and cargo pickups for months before i got bored so went on a blackhole discovery mass jump past SAG A and back twice..boy was that some grinding lol...food for thought
 
I'll be up-front, I say this from the perspective of someone who's rarely in busy open systems to be pirated, let alone in Open anyway. But the issue of Clogging isn't the "main problem", rather, it's a symptom of a bigger issue; that the victim of a pirate and/or combatant has zero bargaining power, and no ability to identify the difference between a pirate and a combatant, until it's too late.

Combat logging is one of several underlying problems that makes CMDR piracy difficult. Context defying escapes make other considerations moot, and even the threat of them has a significant chilling effect on piracy (and other) gameplay.

Other major underlying problems include defensive inflation and the fact that escape has always been just a high-wake away. There are very few practical mechanisms to stop competent pilots from jumping out, and essentially no way to follow them (wake scanning is a joke and will only work against the lazy, who only exist because consequences are nil regardless). These are the some of same mechanisms that significantly curtail the viability of bounty hunting, or effective policing of CMDRs in general.

Anyway, if anything, I'd say the victim has too much bargaining power. Afterall, if the pirate doesn't appease the player of the CMDR being targeted with the gameplay provided, that player can go about their business in a mode where the pirate can never touch them. Even if the player enforces their own limits on such behavior, pirates are impotent to inflict significant consequence for non-compliance...the most the victim can lose is a load of cargo and a ship, the latter of which will be returned to them, essentially free of charge.

As for pirate vs. combatant. A pirate is perforce a combatant. Piracy is openly hostile. It's extortion backed by the threat of force. The only indicator of an interdictor's specific intent should be their reputation, or that of the group they belong to.

No such guarantee exists for the victim of an interdiction; you're either:
  • Idealistically; going to walk away with slightly less cargo (the win-win of piracy)
  • Going to start walking away with less cargo, but be killed anyway (the win-lose of piracy)
  • Just be killed outright (the lose-lose of piracy)

This is a bizarre collection of worst-case scenarios that does not reflect my experience, or the experiences of anyone who has more than a few, well at all.

My CMDR has been pulled over by pirates on numerous occasions over the last five-and-a-half years. He's lost cargo once to a hatchbreaker (back in 1.2 when he was in a shieldless Asp X, smuggling slaves so he could afford one of those fancy new Vultures), and was still able to make sure the pirate couldn't take it before narrowly, but successfully escaping (from an actual pirate who just wanted to steal my CMDR's hard earned rares with his Clipper).

About 90-95% of the time, my CMDR simply leaves. About 5-10% of the time, he's able to destroy or drive off the pirate(s) and go about his business (or at least dock safely). My CMDR has never lost a ship without choosing to stand his ground and fight, at least initially (though he does occasionally wait a little too long to bail on a losing contest), and has certainly never lost a ship to anyone, or any wing, well-equipped for piracy.

It should not take a wing of three or four CMDRs of similar experience to for me to feel my CMDR's shieldless trade ships are at some vague risk of losing cargo (either through theft or destruction), but it does.

As soon as that interdiction starts, there is no guarantee which of these scenarios a non-com player is getting themselves into

A cargo ship in dangerous space is hardly a non-combatant and the idea that they should view themselves as such is lunacy. If one thinks they have something others may want, and realizes that there is nothing stopping them from trying to take it, the only rational recourse is to make efforts to protect oneself. The gamist types will stay out of Open and take just what they need to prevent NPC piracy (which is usually nothing). Those staying in Open will quickly learn basic escape and evasion, throw some HRPs and countermeasures on their CMDR's ships, and also become virtually immune to piracy...unless they are piracy tourists who think being mugged is somehow desirable.

the only chance you have to control the outcome is to clog.

Complete nonsense.

  • single-purpose defensive modules (i.e can't be re-employed sensibly in an aggressive role; an example from EVE is warp-core stabilisers... allows you to "ignore" warp disruptor points, but also trashes your sensor lock speed, meaning you can't shoot back quickly)
  • Additionally to above, if there's "overriding" type modules, then there should be aggressive counter-measures requiring fitting, so as to weaken the combat ability of an interdictor
  • Some way to up-front determine whether the interdictor plans to kill or simply pirate the target; maybe even two interdictor variants with advantages to either type of activity.
  • If plausible, a way to make the mechanics like PvE; where all the risk during the act of piracy is worn by the agressor, not the defender.

All of these are silly.

There isn't any defense that cannot be used offensively and the specific example of a "warp-core stabiliser" would barely reduce combat effectiveness...hitscan weapons or any weapon used at point blank range doesn't much need working sensors to be effective. A panicked "non-combatant" boosting in a straight line with a tin can death trap is not going to last any longer even if their attacker has to turn off their entire HUD or fly in third person.

Pirates already weaken their combat ability by taking, at the very least, one ship that has a cargo rack and one ship that has an interdictor. Arbitrarily handicapping the offensive capabilities further would not save anyone who needs these kinds of mechanisms.

The third suggestion would either need you to be able to read the interdictor's mind, or further heavy-handed mechanisms to prevent anything other than piracy depending on interdiction type, which would be silly and useless, not to mention counter-productive if it keeps others from using the low wake--my CMDR has interviened on several occasions to disrupt piracy, sometimes he's even successful, occasionally without even destroying the trader before they can drop the cargo--wich it would have to do to function as intended.

Not plausible, because PvE is not plausible. NPCs are idiotic and habitually bite off more than they can chew, having no apparent regard for their lives, nor the success of their endeavors. I mean, there are plenty of brain-dead players out there, but most of them can learn something and aren't constraining their CMDR's behavior to try to cater to even worse pilots, so there is no plausible way to keep them from leveraging tools and tactics NPCs will never be allowed to.

That's a very insightful post, and some good ideas there.
I like the idea of purely defensive weapons that incur little to no "cargo tax" as an excellent means of solving the issue.

The "I don't play this mode and don't know how PvP priacy works, but I assume these are issues and I guess this might fix them", angle is not providing much in the way of insight.

Most of these are solutions to invented issues, or ones that are so fundamental to multiplayer interactions that the only way to 'solve' them is to make the gameplay you are trying to fix completely impossible to perform.

Something that was costly, but weighed little and did something that was not permanent but would enable you to escape would be an excellent solution in my book. Obviously we wouldn't want it to be just a simple button but rather something requiring a bit of skill or timing to make work

It already exists, and it is a button press! It's whatever you bound your "enable FSD to hyperspace jump" key to.

If it got any easier you'd just be playing in Solo.
 
Combat logging is one of several underlying problems that makes CMDR piracy difficult. Context defying escapes make other considerations moot, and even the threat of them has a significant chilling effect on piracy (and other) gameplay.

Other major underlying problems include defensive inflation and the fact that escape has always been just a high-wake away. There are very few practical mechanisms to stop competent pilots from jumping out, and essentially no way to follow them (wake scanning is a joke and will only work against the lazy, who only exist because consequences are nil regardless). These are the some of same mechanisms that significantly curtail the viability of bounty hunting, or effective policing of CMDRs in general.

Anyway, if anything, I'd say the victim has too much bargaining power. Afterall, if the pirate doesn't appease the player of the CMDR being targeted with the gameplay provided, that player can go about their business in a mode where the pirate can never touch them. Even if the player enforces their own limits on such behavior, pirates are impotent to inflict significant consequence for non-compliance...the most the victim can lose is a load of cargo and a ship, the latter of which will be returned to them, essentially free of charge.

As for pirate vs. combatant. A pirate is perforce a combatant. Piracy is openly hostile. It's extortion backed by the threat of force. The only indicator of an interdictor's specific intent should be their reputation, or that of the group they belong to.



This is a bizarre collection of worst-case scenarios that does not reflect my experience, or the experiences of anyone who has more than a few, well at all.

My CMDR has been pulled over by pirates on numerous occasions over the last five-and-a-half years. He's lost cargo once to a hatchbreaker (back in 1.2 when he was in a shieldless Asp X, smuggling slaves so he could afford one of those fancy new Vultures), and was still able to make sure the pirate couldn't take it before narrowly, but successfully escaping (from an actual pirate who just wanted to steal my CMDR's hard earned rares with his Clipper).

About 90-95% of the time, my CMDR simply leaves. About 5-10% of the time, he's able to destroy or drive off the pirate(s) and go about his business (or at least dock safely). My CMDR has never lost a ship without choosing to stand his ground and fight, at least initially (though he does occasionally wait a little too long to bail on a losing contest), and has certainly never lost a ship to anyone, or any wing, well-equipped for piracy.

It should not take a wing of three or four CMDRs of similar experience to for me to feel my CMDR's shieldless trade ships are at some vague risk of losing cargo (either through theft or destruction), but it does.



A cargo ship in dangerous space is hardly a non-combatant and the idea that they should view themselves as such is lunacy. If one thinks they have something others may want, and realizes that there is nothing stopping them from trying to take it, the only rational recourse is to make efforts to protect oneself. The gamist types will stay out of Open and take just what they need to prevent NPC piracy (which is usually nothing). Those staying in Open will quickly learn basic escape and evasion, throw some HRPs and countermeasures on their CMDR's ships, and also become virtually immune to piracy...unless they are piracy tourists who think being mugged is somehow desirable.



Complete nonsense.



All of these are silly.

There isn't any defense that cannot be used offensively and the specific example of a "warp-core stabiliser" would barely reduce combat effectiveness...hitscan weapons or any weapon used at point blank range doesn't much need working sensors to be effective. A panicked "non-combatant" boosting in a straight line with a tin can death trap is not going to last any longer even if their attacker has to turn off their entire HUD or fly in third person.

Pirates already weaken their combat ability by taking, at the very least, one ship that has a cargo rack and one ship that has an interdictor. Arbitrarily handicapping the offensive capabilities further would not save anyone who needs these kinds of mechanisms.

The third suggestion would either need you to be able to read the interdictor's mind, or further heavy-handed mechanisms to prevent anything other than piracy depending on interdiction type, which would be silly and useless, not to mention counter-productive if it keeps others from using the low wake--my CMDR has interviened on several occasions to disrupt piracy, sometimes he's even successful, occasionally without even destroying the trader before they can drop the cargo--wich it would have to do to function as intended.

Not plausible, because PvE is not plausible. NPCs are idiotic and habitually bite off more than they can chew, having no apparent regard for their lives, nor the success of their endeavors. I mean, there are plenty of brain-dead players out there, but most of them can learn something and aren't constraining their CMDR's behavior to try to cater to even worse pilots, so there is no plausible way to keep them from leveraging tools and tactics NPCs will never be allowed to.



The "I don't play this mode and don't know how PvP priacy works, but I assume these are issues and I guess this might fix them", angle is not providing much in the way of insight.

Most of these are solutions to invented issues, or ones that are so fundamental to multiplayer interactions that the only way to 'solve' them is to make the gameplay you are trying to fix completely impossible to perform.



It already exists, and it is a button press! It's whatever you bound your "enable FSD to hyperspace jump" key to.

If it got any easier you'd just be playing in Solo.
OOF! I agree though, piracy vs experienced commanders is nigh-on impossible for a single pirate
 
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