PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[Stealthie]

Think about your in-game Elite experiences (I'm sure mine are fairly representative)
Have you ever been attacked by NPCs when carrying ONLY exploration data? Have you ever been attacked when Mining - without being asked to drop "some of that Tasty Cargo' first? Have you ever been interdicted by Pirates who attacked before telling you to drop some Cargo? Etc etc...

Yes.

I've had my empty ship attacked on a planet's surface, I've been attacked at USS's and I've been attacked for carrying escape pods or exploration data.

I've also had a ship with 1000Mj shields and 1000 integrity destroyed with a single shot recently.

Increasing the likelihood of powerful NPCs spawning in those scenarios, with those capabilities, would reduce the enjoyment I get from the game.

 

[gribley]

This is geting funny.
Are Peoples logic really that if you restrict people's outfitting to allow more people to combat fit they will be pvp viable and not be clubbed????? People get clubbed because they have a complete inability to fly competently.

Pvpers spend thousand of hours to git-gud and you can bet that no matter what tweaks are made to outfitting there will always be a specific loadout.

That alone however palesdoesnt matter when you realize that its a nightmare to try and learn the skill for pvp engeneered or not.
Some jokers are at the CG trying to pvp fa-on even. No amount of outfitting changes and npc tweaks can save them from they fact that they are going to present minimal to no threat.

 

[M00ka]

The problem as I see it is that the PvP community feel as though they have been short changed in the ED multiverse. They only have Open to play in, everyone else has Solo and PG plus Open if they so wish. But the Pvp'ers do have a problem and that is the small subset of their kind that target anyone and everyone, well as long as the target is preferably smaller and weaker. This of course drives players away from Open which means the entire PvP are starting to feel a tad lonely there.

I think FDev could fix things relatively easily, give the PvP community specific and well defined areas where they can engage other Commanders without fear of retribution (to a degree, will explain in a second). The easiest solution is to create PvP zones, same as any CZ, RES or Nav site, but clearly identified as a PvP area. They can even be populated with so NPC's for target practice but (my thinking again) the NPCs should all be at minimum Deadly or Elite, engineered and have the Mistress tweak them to a more deadly level. All Commanders will know that dropping into these zones means that the Commander is entering an area were PvP will happen. Think of it as a lawless zone, so no fines, no bounties and no security.

This could be expanded to entire systems as well. Presently, as we all know, systems are categorized as either High/Med/Low Sec or Anarchy. What about having a complete systems marked as lawless. In my way of thinking, any system that doesn't have a station or outpost should be considered lawless. Again, anything goes but they should also be easily either avoided or highlighted as a lawless system. But to even things out, have the system security levels mean something. A HiSec system should mean just that, and Commander committing an illegal action should expect near instant lethal response from the System Authority ships. Medium Sec, the responses aren't quite as fast, Low Sec, most people should be able to get away with easy from the Authorities. Anarchy systems need a bit of a tweak, yes they are anarchy, but they have their own rules and laws and will be dependent on the ethos of the faction controlling the Anarchy system.

This will at least give the PvP community somewhere clearly defined to operate in and give those that don't want PvP a likewise clearly defined area to avoid.

 

[Stealthie]

This is geting funny.
Are Peoples logic really that if you restrict people's outfitting to allow more people to combat fit they will be pvp viable and not be clubbed????? People get clubbed because they have a complete inability to fly competently.

.......

Some jokers are at the CG trying to pvp fa-on even. No amount of outfitting changes and npc tweaks can save them from they fact that they are going to present minimal to no threat.

And let's not forget that's at a combat CG, where people should be flying combat ships.

Let's face it, there are a lot of the people who (perfectly reasonably) get their jollies pottering around doing non-violent things in ED and they're always going to get whupped when they get attacked by another player - or by NPCs with ships/skills approaching PvP levels.

By way of analogy, what the OP is doing is a bit like suggesting it should be compulsory for everybody to carry a gun in order that they'd be more proficient at self-defence.
In reality, all that's going to happen is you're going to annoy all the people who would find carrying a gun to be a nuisance or interfere with the stuff they actually want to do.

 

[gribley]

The problem as I see it is that the PvP community feel as though they have been short changed in the ED multiverse. They only have Open to play in, everyone else has Solo and PG plus Open if they so wish. But the Pvp'ers do have a problem and that is the small subset of their kind that target anyone and everyone, well as long as the target is preferably smaller and weaker. This of course drives players away from Open which means the entire PvP are starting to feel a tad lonely there.

I think FDev could fix things relatively easily, give the PvP community specific and well defined areas where they can engage other Commanders without fear of retribution (to a degree, will explain in a second). The easiest solution is to create PvP zones, same as any CZ, RES or Nav site, but clearly identified as a PvP area. They can even be populated with so NPC's for target practice but (my thinking again) the NPCs should all be at minimum Deadly or Elite, engineered and have the Mistress tweak them to a more deadly level. All Commanders will know that dropping into these zones means that the Commander is entering an area were PvP will happen. Think of it as a lawless zone, so no fines, no bounties and no security.

This could be expanded to entire systems as well. Presently, as we all know, systems are categorized as either High/Med/Low Sec or Anarchy. What about having a complete systems marked as lawless. In my way of thinking, any system that doesn't have a station or outpost should be considered lawless. Again, anything goes but they should also be easily either avoided or highlighted as a lawless system. But to even things out, have the system security levels mean something. A HiSec system should mean just that, and Commander committing an illegal action should expect near instant lethal response from the System Authority ships. Medium Sec, the responses aren't quite as fast, Low Sec, most people should be able to get away with easy from the Authorities. Anarchy systems need a bit of a tweak, yes they are anarchy, but they have their own rules and laws and will be dependent on the ethos of the faction controlling the Anarchy system.

This will at least give the PvP community somewhere clearly defined to operate in and give those that don't want PvP a likewise clearly defined area to avoid.

Its called open play mate. Cant have a more clearly defined pvp mode than that.

If i see a hollow dot i know that they chose to be in open as opposed to safety and in doing so accept the risks that it brings.

That alone lets me fight and kill them guilt free. Dont wanna pvp dont plsy open. Plainly open is pvp mode

 

[verminstar]

Mods having the day off it seems, this would have been in the hotel otherwise.

Sorry to see anyone go but I gotta be honest...the pvp/pve rift is something the pvp community did to itself. I say that as a pve player who plays in open...almost every day I see the spite and the hatred and the salt being directed at players from others players...wanna take a wild guess who the saltiest and most hateful and spiteful players are?

Heres a clue...they aint pve players.

That attitude, that self entitled arrogant attitude is what destroyed the game in open...and I love pvp and really wanna see it being developed to the point where it might be interesting. Sounds weird doesnt it? Blaming the pvp community in one breath then claiming to love pvp...which I do and have done fer many, many years but it never appealed in this game partly because it was under developed, but mostly just because the players themselves dont play nice with each other.

True story but when I played eve, pvp was accepted by even the most dedicated pve players who mined and ratted all day...there was salt and threats and insults but it was a lot healthier atmosphere than this game has. I can only assume that the influx of pvp players from several games that were struggling a few years back leaving elite the only choice to be where things went wrong...frontier just stuck everyone into a no holds barred sandpit and sat back expecting a happy ending.

And hows that been working out?

I saw a comment from page one about how they find it tragic and sad that players complain about their shields when suggestions to nerf them are brought to the table. Well ye see theres one the differences between the two...a pvp ship will have a bunch of mrp and hrp slotted in so losing shields is something they can survive. Ye see where this is going right? A pve ship by its very nature wont have all those slots filled with a safety net, the hull is paper thin so shields down equals very very bad news.

Sp...still confused about why theres a backlash when a pvp player suggest nerfing shields? It gives them the advantage and gives everyone else two fingers...doesnt matter what argument ye try giving it.

Anyway...its now long past the point where players alone could fix the rift...its grown too deep and the divisions are bitter and unyielding. So long as frontier stay out of it, the longer it will last and the more harm will be done by it. Its sorta sad, but as I said before...self inflicted ^

 

[Mohrgan]

Its called open play mate. Cant have a more clearly defined pvp mode than that.

If i see a hollow dot i know that they chose to be in open as opposed to safety and in doing so accept the risks that it brings.

That alone lets me fight and kill them guilt free. Dont wanna pvp dont plsy open. Plainly open is pvp mode

That is, or could be, exactly right. What needs to go along with this point of view, is to accept those playing in modes other than open, and not attempt to punish them, or raise open players above them. Just let each other be. If this insistence that everyone should play in the same way could just be removed, there would be no 'rift'.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Its called open play mate. Cant have a more clearly defined pvp mode than that.

If i see a hollow dot i know that they chose to be in open as opposed to safety and in doing so accept the risks that it brings.

That alone lets me fight and kill them guilt free. Dont wanna pvp dont plsy open. Plainly open is pvp mode

Sorry thats griefer talk. This is a PVE game with optional PVP. But not over objectives. It had better be a handshake match. Or its just griefing. /s

You know something I wish Frontier would do. Is define what griefing is, and what PVP is.

So some of these people dont understand what they are getting into to begin with.

They really need to stop being silent about this stuff. Its not funny anymore. Ive seen the video about brabens "social experiment" Where he says its fascinating about how players act about it.

All that changes when the toxicity rises through the roof. People are now being threatened out of game sometimes because of it. In various ways.

If frontier reads this. Please make a move already. This is your game, you are in control of the toxicity. Time to step up. Its your community. Address it.

 

[M00ka]

Its called open play mate. Cant have a more clearly defined pvp mode than that.

If i see a hollow dot i know that they chose to be in open as opposed to safety and in doing so accept the risks that it brings.

That alone lets me fight and kill them guilt free. Dont wanna pvp dont plsy open. Plainly open is pvp mode

You just expertly showed the reason why so many players of Elite will not venture into Open. I know it is very hard for you to comprehend but a lot of players refuse to be your game content. They might want to play in Open for the BGS, to cooperate with other Commanders but there you are, finger on the trigger, just waiting for the next seal to club.

I will await your next cry when you can't find anyone in Open!

 

[Hooplah]

So, in the Elite universe how many play PvP?
How many play PvE?

If the vast overwhelming majority is PvE then maybe we should dumb down PvP to match PvE. Everyone's on an equal footing and now we're back to player experience and skill in weaker ships to avoid the rebuy screen.

Of course PvP players would go totally bonkers over this not wanting to give up their massively engineered ships with much less satisfaction in intense combat. It would also pretty well nerf engineering to accomplish this goal. Yes, this suggestion is as ridiculous as the reverse that the OP suggested.

The whole point I think was that PvP players wanted more than just the same as in PvE so the Devs came up with substantial engineering to maximize the combat potential of PvP. Meanwhile PvE players have a good combat balance with non-engineered ships and can make it a lot easier even with some mild engineering. Two groups with different play styles. Something for everyone.

The problem is the large engineering/combat skills learning curve between the two modes where many PvE players who might consider PvP decide not to. Then the PvPers complain there aren't enough other live players on Open mode. So dumb down PvP ships or enjoy all that great engineering in PvP combat. I cannot see that having it both ways will ever be possible.

​

 

[gribley]

The problem as I see it is that the PvP community feel as though they have been short changed in the ED multiverse. They only have Open to play in, everyone else has Solo and PG plus Open if they so wish. But the Pvp'ers do have a problem and that is the small subset of their kind that target anyone and everyone, well as long as the target is preferably smaller and weaker. This of course drives players away from Open which means the entire PvP are starting to feel a tad lonely there.

I think FDev could fix things relatively easily, give the PvP community specific and well defined areas where they can engage other Commanders without fear of retribution (to a degree, will explain in a second). The easiest solution is to create PvP zones, same as any CZ, RES or Nav site, but clearly identified as a PvP area. They can even be populated with so NPC's for target practice but (my thinking again) the NPCs should all be at minimum Deadly or Elite, engineered and have the Mistress tweak them to a more deadly level. All Commanders will know that dropping into these zones means that the Commander is entering an area were PvP will happen. Think of it as a lawless zone, so no fines, no bounties and no security.

This could be expanded to entire systems as well. Presently, as we all know, systems are categorized as either High/Med/Low Sec or Anarchy. What about having a complete systems marked as lawless. In my way of thinking, any system that doesn't have a station or outpost should be considered lawless. Again, anything goes but they should also be easily either avoided or highlighted as a lawless system. But to even things out, have the system security levels mean something. A HiSec system should mean just that, and Commander committing an illegal action should expect near instant lethal response from the System Authority ships. Medium Sec, the responses aren't quite as fast, Low Sec, most people should be able to get away with easy from the Authorities. Anarchy systems need a bit of a tweak, yes they are anarchy, but they have their own rules and laws and will be dependent on the ethos of the faction controlling the Anarchy system.

This will at least give the PvP community somewhere clearly defined to operate in and give those that don't want PvP a likewise clearly defined area to avoid.

You just expertly showed the reason why so many players of Elite will not venture into Open. I know it is very hard for you to comprehend but a lot of players refuse to be your game content. They might want to play in Open for the BGS, to cooperate with other Commanders but there you are, finger on the trigger, just waiting for the next seal to club.

I will await your next cry when you can't find anyone in Open!

Interestingly enough i very rately open fire on someone unpledged or not in a big ship. Ive got no interest blapping some munchkins asp.

You can usally find me doing powerplay pvp or in arranged duels. I am quite partial to piricy however.

Remember traders if the pirate says stop engines or die its not a cue to run. The fsd reset missiles and overcharged pa's are not for looks

Ah mobil why are you so aweful.
That was ment for the other bloke sorry

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

This will at least give the PvP community somewhere clearly defined to operate in and give those that don't want PvP a likewise clearly defined area to avoid.

And that is different from the PvPers having open and the PvEers having the option opt out in group/solo how ?

 

[Whipley]

So, in the Elite universe how many play PvP?
How many play PvE?

Some of us enjoy both.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

The most obvious and logical solution is to remove the possibility of PvP from the game. And I mean, completely.

It would upset the least amount of players - that's a fact, given that Frontier themselves stated the majority of players don't indulge in direct PvP.

Sure, Frontier might lose a % of their player base, but it would be restoring what is supposed to be an Elite game, to the status of being an Elite game. Right now, it's still basically a direct PvP gankfest arcade game with an Elite skin, enabling a small fraction of the more scurrilous of the player base to extract a noisy amount of salt.

Of course, Frontier won't want to go down the most obvious and logical route - so here we are after 4 years and countless Hotel California threads. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[M00ka]

And that is different form the PvPers having open and the PvEers having the option opt out in group/solo how ?

Well for a start the PvP community would know they have locations where there will be PvP encounters with like minded Commanders. But then going by some here, another PvP Commander is the last target they will attack, can't have even contests can we!

 

[gribley]

The most obvious and logical solution is to remove the possibility of PvP from the game. And I mean, completely.

It would upset the least amount of players - that's a fact, given that Frontier themselves stated the majority of players don't indulge in direct PvP.

Sure, Frontier might lose a % of their player base, but it would be restoring what is supposed to be an Elite game, to the status of being an Elite game. Right now, it's still basically a direct PvP gankfest arcade game with an Elite skin, enabling a small fraction of the more scurrilous of the player base to extract a noisy amount of salt.

Of course, Frontier won't want to go down the most obvious and logical route - so here we are after 4 years and countless Hotel California threads. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Play
In
Solo
You
Cant
Be
ganked

It boggles my mind how a mode exists for removing pvp completly yet people still wanna have a whinge.

Heck, go to mobius if you want scocial pve.
Your problem is self inflicted

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Play
In
Solo
You
Cant
Be
ganked

It boggles my mind how a mode exists for removing pvp completly yet people still wanna have a whinge.

Heck, go to mobius if you want scocial pve.
Your problem is self inflicted

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to gribley again.

Can we buff the thumbs up button dad?

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Play
In
Solo
You
Cant
Be
ganked

It boggles my mind how a mode exists for removing pvp completly yet people still wanna have a whinge.

Heck, go to mobius if you want scocial pve.
Your problem is self inflicted

You must be new he*checks profile*re... yeah.

Point is Frontier has squandered an absolute crapload of time trying to get their Elite-skinned arcade game to work multiplayer and with direct PvP.

If they had instead focused on making it a cooperative PvE-based game rather than frittering away months/years of development time trying to force a previously-single-player concept to be some sort of jolly multi-player experience and failing to try to get PvE activities to intermix happily with direct PvP activities, which obviously does not work, then this thread and others like it would not have existed, and perhaps the game would be even further ahead in terms of content, storyline, etc.

Instead, we have this utter mess which I hardly even load up any more because, frankly, the whole thing has turned sour on me.

 

[Han_Zen]

The PvE/PvP rift is a simple one of equipment.

As long as it continues to be advantageous to stack every single slot on our ship with defense (boosters in the utes, hrps/mrps in the optionals), over a ship that carries ANY mission equipment whatsoever, this imbalance will continue.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, FD almost hit on the answer back in the day with specialist modules, unfortunately, they addressed it backwards (it is kinda counter intuitive, so bear with me). When they gave military ships military slots, what they should have done was the opposite, dedicate some slots on EVERY ship to NON-military items.

Example: Each small ship gets 1 non-military optional slot and 1 non military utility slot. Each medium ship gets 2 non military slots and 2 non military utilities, etc etc. Tweak for specific ships as needed.

This would mean every ship, pvp or pve would be able to max out defense and still be able to scan a system, carry 4t of cargo or scoop fuel and not be a total victim in combat.

Trust me when I say this is THE whole issue with pve vs pvp. As long as you enforce this equipment gap and continue to say 'pveers show their skill by successfully running away, herp derp', those who think its unfair will run in solo/pg.

This is why WoW has two gearsets, one for pve and one for pvp, it's kinda obvious to most gamemakers.

This^^^

 

[verminstar]

Play
In
Solo
You
Cant
Be
ganked

It boggles my mind how a mode exists for removing pvp completly yet people still wanna have a whinge.

Heck, go to mobius if you want scocial pve.
Your problem is self inflicted

And when pvprs then invade the forums whining about how empty open is, the usual call goes to frontier to nerf the modes themselves. So pvprs send ye to solo, then demand solo players git gud and come back to open...then tell players to go back to solo...then demand frontier nerf solo...

And yet ye have the gall to tell others their pain is self inflicted...is that what they say? Inspiring stuff but sadly, pvp players do not own open and can only advise, not demand. If ye make demands, then thats arrogance and arrogance begets arrogance right back which means its self inflicted alright...on the very community compalining about how open is a ghost town.

Which is a cool way of saying yer more a part of the problem thatn the solution but thats cool...cos its not my problem, its yours ^