PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[Arindor]

Its called open play mate. Cant have a more clearly defined pvp mode than that.

If i see a hollow dot i know that they chose to be in open as opposed to safety and in doing so accept the risks that it brings.

That alone lets me fight and kill them guilt free. Dont wanna pvp dont plsy open. Plainly open is pvp mode

Mmmmm, a classic case of, "Look! Humanz! Must kill Humanz because theyz Humanz!", if ever I've seen one.

To be honest, in certain areas of the bubble, it's difficult to RP when others have this kind of gaming mentality. And that's the problem with ED, it can't balance the two regardless of what mode one plays in.

 

[Cargobane]

PvP is what killed Elite as a game. That is all.

 

[relayer]

Wasn't it John Woodpecker that said that?

No. It was... JOHN SMALLBERRIES!

 

[kofeyh]

Mmmmm, a classic case of, "look! Humanz! Must kill Humanz because theyz Humanz!", if ever I've seen one.

Frontier never required any other reason. See a hollow square/ Triangle? Feel free to shoot it (we'll inconsistently slap you with a bounty as a consequence tho). This has been the case for 4 years. By the time Frontier actually considered if that experience was actually working for anyone at all, it was already too late. Besides, there's solo and private group, so what's the problem? (slightly more complicated, but that's more or less the developers take on player engagement).

This is Frontier in a nutshell. Able to build amazing things. Very smart development team, who are capable of amazing work; who are equally just lousy at understanding the experience and how players relate to it. What's really crazy, is that it's the experience that is the drawcard for almost certainly every player.

And it's the one thing, Frontier understand the very least. It's the great irony of Elite: Dangerous. Fantastic game that has a not-fantastic experience. And four years on, Frontier show very little sign of doing anything other than crafting what they think people want, and then endlessly breaking it, when they can't quite understand why it isn't (but persist in doing so anyway).

I'm not even sure Frontier knows da way, anymore. People are noticing. 3.0 was supposed to be the update to improve the experience; if the developer still doesn't "get" how important that is, then where too from here?

The rift between players and their chosen professions, is a symptom of the experience; it's Frontier's ongoing issues understanding it that's the cause.

 

[relayer]

if some people didn't do their research properly

Sometimes I think that it's just a matter of what kind of game Elite is... the freeformness of it. There's no progression from "Escaped Criminal" to "The Lost Prince of the Galaxy." That is what made it unique at the time. It's a galaxy. You make your way in it as best you can, because it's a really nice thing to be in - plantes, moons, stars... and you get to fly a spaceship. You aren't anybody special to the universe. You can do many things for variety and credits, but the main point of Elite was "I am flying a spaceship in a scale model of our galaxy."

 

[relayer]

figured a little comedic comment would be funny continuation of the chain.

GUILTY! *bangs gavel* GUILTY!

YOU ARE GUILTY OF THE MOST PERNICIOUS CRIME OF HUMOR!

WEAR THIS TINFOIL HAT AND GO SIT AT ZIGGY'S TABLE.

 

[relayer]

Lol @ forum fights. Which nerd is gonna be the first to give the other a swirly?

10,000 quatloos on the newcomer!

 

[kofeyh]

You make your way in it as best you can, because it's a really nice thing to be in - plantes, moons, stars... and you get to fly a spaceship. You aren't anybody special to the universe. You can do many things for variety and credits, but the main point of Elite was "I am flying a spaceship in a scale model of our galaxy."

This is true; it's also true that the developer gave everyone the same choice to pretty much do whatever, because you're just a wee thing in a giant universe so go "blaze your own trail". Different people, of course, have different ideas of what that means, though. This will be an automatic cause of colliding ideals.

Which is fine, normally, because games usually take that sort of thing into account and seperate out PVP from PVE to more structured areas. Frontier's way of taking that into account? 3 modes. All connected to a singular universe and background simulator. The 3 modes are essentially separating PVE and PVP. They just did an unfortunately poor job of communicating this, or ensuring all 3 modes could adequately scale to player demand. PG's are still a management nightmare. Don't scale. Anyhoo.

They then added structured, fast-paced PVP in the form of Arena, which did about as well as anything would as a bolt on afterthought that could have become a huge MOBA-like monster and instead ignored all the established ways to handle divergent abilities, or any of the other accoutrements such games have long since solved; like using cosmetics and having a bajillion combos of builds to create meta and have an actual sane matchmaking system, and all that sort of thing competitive games (again) have mostly solved already.

What I find fascinating though, is why even maintain open still, since this is just a matchmaking function, if the vast majority aren't actually engaging at that level? It does make you wonder if perhaps the bigger concern is the experience and not actually the mode anyone is in? Maybe these forums are far from the actual average player experience? Or the developer really is struggling to understand engagement after all.

Either way; the fact there's a gulf at all, is down to the experience the developer crafted for it's players. Who does what doesn't really enter in to it in the larger picture, that's a give in, because that's how the game was sold - blaze your own trail.

Me? I think Frontier was naive, was caught entirely unprepared when it became apparent PVP in open was going to be frequent and effective, then became so (and was then put into the too-hard basket); and is too far down the road to change it now, despite protestations that that would solve everything (it likely won't at this point). Just like making AI harder. It's all the same thing; people are looking for an engaging experience more than anything else and these are just examples drawn from individual experience (where such things then take on a scale and have method to their madness).

Frontier meanwhile? Happy to turn entire bits of that off because it's annoying them during troubleshooting. Highly divergent goals between player and developer.

AI challenge has become a diversion, just like PVP, from the things the developer would gain the most traction in - focusing on the experience again to make sure it's as bullet-proof as they can make it. PVP and AI scaling then become part of that fabric, like they should always have been. Like they said they would, promised they would, for 3.0. Yes, we understand, they said, we'll totally focus on improving the experience.

Actions, aren't really aligning there. It started out well, and then got hamstrung on highly complex criminal code (which has a good basis, no less) outright broken by mechanics being disabled; and we're back to an amazing game that's a true frustration to experience. And people pointing fingers because this is a little easier than realising the developer has an unsettlingly bad understanding of what the experience now is.

I don't know. I just don't know what Frontier are trying to achieve anymore.

Edited.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Frontier already tried this. 2.1. MoM's changes were strong. People who never considered their ship's survival important (because they had never had to) suddenly did - these changes crossed all modes remeber. AI had an actual rudimental challenge curve; which is normal in every other game I've ever played. The player base, clearly, did not believe "challenge" should exist in Elite. Even when the edge-case engineering garbage was resolved, nope, nerf the AI because they are actually a problem (which they should have always been at times) and this is unacceptable.

Frontier tried an experiment; making the de facto mode a free-for-all. Most other MMO's will actually split PVE and PVP; because this allows both to be better tailored. But that has time and costs associated. It's also not Braben's vision of people experiencing his vision and ignoring each other to just be in awe of the BGS and universe; honestly, David seems a great guy but I can't help but get the impression players are a bit of an impost (some of us probably are, to be fair, including myself).

I'm not sure if the developer was (partly) deluded, or just naive. But this is what we now have; and the odds of that fundimentally changing, well I'd not bet on it. But; for whatever reason, Frontier has this almost flawless knack for sitting on an issue, for so long, when they do eventually decide it's worth progressing a solution for, people have long since adopted the status quo and will therefore resist any change.

There's is a flawed belief that "if AI were just as good as players", it'd solve all the issues. I used to believe that as well. But it's wildly apparent that the player-base is pretty intractable and this sort of change would never last. Frontier are capable of amazing work and I am still, at times, caught by how good a lot of the game is.

But there's one universal constant; Frontier developed a FFA game, then ignored that decision for 4 years; and in fact added their own voice to mocking and deriding open as a bad place to be. In so doing, they cemented the notion that anyone in open is a universal bad egg. When even the developer is a bit guilty of finger-pointing rather than recognise it's a huge area for improvement and actually pledge early on to solve that; it does set a bit of a tone. They mean well. But Frontier, and Elite, is not going to be a good time for a while.

I think 3.0 is their chance to actually, fundimentally reset the game (from a mechanics standpoint) and focus more on the experience. I fear, however, they're once again buried in the minutia, and how important that experience has always been, will once again die on the pyre of "complex solutions to problems no-one actually has" followed by "this isn't working as intended, even though it did last week" and now the new "the mechanics have been disabled whilst we solve the problem" - which has caused quite a lot of grief.

All of which, is happening in live.

There is a lot of good in the new C&P. And there is a lot of good in the challenge curves in the Thargoid and so on. But a lot of that is wasted on how the experience is being eroded in the pursuit of trying to deliver a vision, regardless of whether that's the one the player base shares.

In essence, the OP, Frenotx, is speaking to the experience. It's the one thing Frontier still hasn't got a solid handle on. Instead of the developer embracing it's community and seeking deliver an experience, leveraging solid concepts and reworking clearly repeated trends into the experience, they're too busy playing whack-a-mole and turning stuff off. Because it's not what they want. Commanders agitating is an automatic give-in; but it's still FDev pulling the trigger.

I'm still playing, massively reduced hours tho (I've gone from streaming it pretty much 7 days a week, to about 3-4); but only a few of my friends are; many are moving on. The number one reason? The inconsistent experience, and the willingness for the developer to just crush any creative approaches, rather than maybe consider they could be reworked to provide a better experience. Mostly, I think they are just tired of being the whacked mole.

Frontier's fast-and-loose approach to solving issues with as much dramatic change as possible, has become exhausting. I don't think the op is alone in their thinking. Not by a long shot.

PVP has become a bit of a scape-goat for a lot of the game issues; and I do not believe that's reasonable. AI that offer a challenge curve is universally decried because, literally, "it's not convenient", despite scaled AI and difficulty curves being a typical approach in a great great many other games I've played, let alone in general.

I don't know how Frontier can proceed. I thought I had a handle on that; but I don't. I want to believe it's the experience that's the universal draw-card for people? I don't know. Maybe that's been lost by players too - busy blaming each other, out of frustration perhaps more than anything.

edited.

Not going forward with 2.1 improved AI and high ranked NPC modded ships was a terrible decision by FD,
aswas forgoing the shield rebalance.
It ensured that players got comfy with becoming gods among insects with engineering, making the line
"You aren't anybody special to the universe" sound like a bad joke. We are special, we are superheroes in
ships 10x better than the NPC's. Engineering has turned most of the game PvE combat to a glorified 3d version
of space invaders, minus the risk of losing.

It's quite telling that one of the better recieved feature of 3.0 was the wing assassination missions.

While good, such missions are small patches for a larger problem : the NPC difficulty curve has been flatened by engineering.
It needs to be reworked and Deadly/Dangerous/Elite NPCs should be just that : Deadly or more, even in a moded ship.

About PvP and PvE : I think that the lack of structured/organised PvP and coop play venues in the game (which is what powerplay could have been)
along with complesancy toward ganking has made open a shadow of what it could have been. gank is the gunk that sticks to the PvP reputation and
ensured that a lot of people don't take PvPers analysis and comments seriously.

I can only hope that FD knows what they are doing with 3.x and we'll not end up with an other lemon season.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The time to set the general (as opposed to USS specific) AI difficulty was in Beta - not over a year after launch.

 

[Stigbob]

The time to set the general (as opposed to USS specific) AI difficulty was in Beta - not over a year after launch.

The thing is in an MMO you can't change an overall difficulty setting, I liked the upgraded AI that was once unleashed. But some players had to get their combat rating reset by support even after it got nerfed so one size clearly doesn't fit all.

You have to set your difficulty level using the shipyard, engineering and outfitting. Also by solo'ing wing missions.

 

[Muetdhiver]

The time to set the general (as opposed to USS specific) AI difficulty was in Beta - not over a year after launch.

Wrong. If you change the player power level, so should the NPC's. Otherwise you turn the game into a trivial point & click to win game.

That how all the games do it. I don't get why ED should be any different. I mean, it would be like diablo using the Act I mobs in Act IV without
changing the HP or anything. When my expert NPC can clean up a CZ all by himself in my Corvette, it's quite telling of how absurdly OP it is.

The big issue with ED in that regard is the fact that engineering is HZ only. If it was open to the core version, it would make tuning the
NPC difficulty curve less of a headache.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Wrong. If you change the player power level, so should the NPC's. Otherwise you turn the game into a trivial point & click to win game.

That how all the games do it. I don't get why ED should be any different. I mean, it would be like diablo using the Act I mobs in Act IV without
changing the HP or anything. When my expert NPC can clean up a CZ all by himself in my Corvette, it's quite telling of how absurdly OP it is.

The big issue with ED in that regard is the fact that engineering is HZ only. If it was open to the core version, it would make tuning the
NPC difficulty curve less of a headache.

Not everyone owns Horizons - so not everyone has access to Engineers.

Players of the base game also require to be able to play the game.

 

[NW3]

It might be worth noting that this thread was originally about the idea of dialling-up NPCs to approach PvP levels of skill.

This is exactly the sort of scenario where that becomes an issue though.
When you're off minding your own business, meeting up with an NPC psycho' killer in a flying death-machine isn't really going to do a lot to improve anybody's enjoyment of the game.

By all means, let's have some super-NPCs stuck into missions and scenarios that warrant them but if we end up with super-NPCs flying around randomly, waiting to "gank" players who're on their way back from exploring or in the middle of mining it's only ever going to hack people off.

Or force people to build all their ships so they're capable of withstanding an attack from a super-NPC... which is also going to hack people off.

True. The thing is, I don't particularly enjoy combat. None of my primary ships have any weapons; that just reduces the jump range. The last thing I want in this game is "NPC psycho killers".

 

[Muetdhiver]

Not everyone owns Horizons - so not everyone has access to Engineers.

Players of the base game also require to be able to play the game.

First, why do you think I said that giving engineering to everyone would be a good thing ?

Second, would that be really a problem ? I fully expect a competent player in a stock ship to be able to best
a Deadly NPC with mods. Let's be real here : NPC's suck at flying. Also, anyone knowing his routine can escape
most PvP gank situations. So long as NPC's don't get FSD reset missiles, I can't see a problem here.
When has becomefleeing such a problem ? Have the players to always be better than the NPC's ?

Last, moded NPC's could have a bolt before their rank, and one could imagine the following :

• Open : spawn NPC's with engineering mods.
• Solo/Private : spawn NPC's with mods only if horizon players.
• Tune down (like seriously down) the number of NPC psychos.

 

[sollisb]

Not going forward with 2.1 improved AI and high ranked NPC modded ships was a terrible decision by FD,
aswas forgoing the shield rebalance.
It ensured that players got comfy with becoming gods among insects with engineering, making the line
"You aren't anybody special to the universe" sound like a bad joke. We are special, we are superheroes in
ships 10x better than the NPC's. Engineering has turned most of the game PvE combat to a glorified 3d version
of space invaders, minus the risk of losing.

It's quite telling that one of the better recieved feature of 3.0 was the wing assassination missions.

While good, such missions are small patches for a larger problem : the NPC difficulty curve has been flatened by engineering.
It needs to be reworked and Deadly/Dangerous/Elite NPCs should be just that : Deadly or more, even in a moded ship.

About PvP and PvE : I think that the lack of structured/organised PvP and coop play venues in the game (which is what powerplay could have been)
along with complesancy toward ganking has made open a shadow of what it could have been. gank is the gunk that sticks to the PvP reputation and
ensured that a lot of people don't take PvPers analysis and comments seriously.

I can only hope that FD knows what they are doing with 3.x and we'll not end up with an other lemon season.

Where are the videos of you solo'ing endless Thargoids? Or your SLF clearing a CZ all on its own?

To be perfectly frank, what I see in all of this, is players being able to kill NPCs in their top tier ships and then thinking they're God's gift to Elite Dangerous. Maybe you can kill a Thargoid solo, and maybe, an SLF can now clear a CZ solo. But really, is everyone able to do that? I know for a fact that my Elite ranked SLF would wet her knickers in a CZ. Stupid thing is constantly losing ships. So how your special SLF can do it is beyond me.

I seriously believe there is a lot of meat measuring in this thread.

 

[Robert Maynard]

First, why do you think I said that giving engineering to everyone would be a good thing ?

Second, would that be really a problem ? I fully expect a competent player in a stock ship to be able to best
a Deadly NPC with mods. Let's be real here : NPC's suck at flying. Also, anyone knowing his routine can escape
most PvP gank situations. So long as NPC's don't get FSD reset missiles, I can't see a problem here.
When has becomefleeing such a problem ? Have the players to always be better than the NPC's ?

Last, moded NPC's could have a bolt before their rank, and one could imagine the following :

• Open : spawn NPC's with engineering mods.
• Solo/Private : spawn NPC's with mods only if horizon players.
• Tune down (like seriously down) the number of NPC psychos.

Firstly, Horizons is not free - it retails at the same price as the base game, when not on sale, and, when on sale, it costs more than the base game.

Secondly, not everyone plays this game for combat. The player-base has grown while the NPCs difficulty is as it is (it hasn't really changed that much, has it, since launch?). So to suddenly significantly change the general NPC difficulty would probably not be well received.

Thirdly, the three modes are functionally identical - and are merely social filters - so the NPCs in one mode are the same as the others - unless there's an "easy mode" subtext here regarding players who select Solo and Private Groups?

 

[kofeyh]

Not everyone owns Horizons - so not everyone has access to Engineers. Players of the base game also require to be able to play the game.

Who decided that, Robert? Who decided the best way forward was to maintain two entirely different experiences, but build entire focus areas in the new version, which impact the old, then recycling the same BGS instances and creating a highly divergent experience, and who, still, refuse to understand that's the thing they said they would focus on in 3.0 and end up mired in endless political nonsense they always are - like this thread; which is once again happy to bury the single most important thing - the experience - to push agenda, all day, erry day.

Here's the thing. Frontier's choice in 3.0, was to reset the expectation and focus on the experience. They rebuilt engineering. And chose to ignore 1.x players again. So let's quite with the pretence over developer intentions. They are plainly evident. Upgrade to horizons. End of conversation.

It comes down to Frontier deciding it's the experience that matters, that players matter, and indeed are more important than, quite literally, anything else.

It's not catering to endless people with axes to grind. To endless calls to create PVE modes. Or make the AI impossible. Or ban all the greifers. It's to focus on the experience and ensure the game has a bullet-proof foundation, that everyone can engage with.

If they can't do that; then all of these arguments over who does what, who is what, which mode makes you "the man"/ "the woman" won't matter because the developer won't have anyone left to build for.

 

[sollisb]

First, why do you think I said that giving engineering to everyone would be a good thing ?

Second, would that be really a problem ? I fully expect a competent player in a stock ship to be able to best
a Deadly NPC with mods. Let's be real here : NPC's suck at flying. Also, anyone knowing his routine can escape
most PvP gank situations. So long as NPC's don't get FSD reset missiles, I can't see a problem here.
When has becomefleeing such a problem ? Have the players to always be better than the NPC's ?

Last, moded NPC's could have a bolt before their rank, and one could imagine the following :

• Open : spawn NPC's with engineering mods.
• Solo/Private : spawn NPC's with mods only if horizon players.
• Tune down (like seriously down) the number of NPC psychos.

I'd actually be in favour of allowing your crazy NPCs in open only. Me thinks Open would become a void.....

 

[Robert Maynard]

Who decided that, Robert?

Who do you think? Given that Horizons is an optional extra to the base game and that players of the base game are not locked out of it due to not owning Horizons....