General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Ian Skippy]

Yep, that is exactly the problem. It will be a major problem one day. But look how well we tacked this one knowing full well what was com-oh....

Our brains aren't wired to envision future major deviations from the norm, neither positive nor negative. It is why, as a species, we struggle to either seize opportunities or prepare for challenges. Whether it is anti-biotics, climate change, zoonosis, the San Andreas Fault or any other of the possible challenges we are extremely likely to face in the coming 100 years it is just too hard to envision it being anything too serious. It is just easier to picture the money you lose today on prevention than it is to picture the disaster you would be mitigating or preventing. So we ignore it until it is too late, and then we spend part of our efforts doing something useful, and part on denial, blame-shifting and/or panicking/overreacting.

Afterwards we will tell ourselves we'll never let it happen again, we'll stay alert for a few years and then we'll forget about it.

 

[Morbad]

I truly appreciate the sentiment, but I think most people will make the same choice?

Probably, but they shouldn't have to.

If everyone stands together there should be a better option available.

Everyone standing together is a pipedream. Best I can do is stand with the people I care about and let them know that there is another choice.

But look how well we tacked this one knowing full well what was com-oh....

If by "we" you mean them, then doing nothing until it was at the door, then making shortsighted and unsubstantiated recommendations (like recommending an antibiotic as a general treatment for COVID-19...and yes, I'm aware of it's potentially relevant anti-inflammatory effects) that will exacerbate both current and future problems.

It is just easier to picture the money you lose today on prevention

It should be seen as an investment. The idea that mitigation efforts for most of these things aren't going to substantially protect the economy in general, and most individual finances as a side-effect, is nuts. Sure, it's possible to take things too far, but that's not likely to happen in most cases.

Of course, shortsightedness rules...which would be understandable if we're talking about individuals who are living pay check to pay check, but not about nation-states, corporations, or their policies.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I tend to read an article from both sides of any discussion if a pure analytical view isn't available to try to get a handle on a situation, because of the politicising of every news story possible, but I will say the NY Times is one of the worst.

I can't find the article (because pay-wall), but to paraphrase a piece they ran early last the 'intellectual' regions of NY and cities were adhering to proper social distancing/not travelling far, but those silly hillbillies down in Alabama/the rust belt were still DRIVING distances in excess of 10 miles (It obviously conveniently ignored the fact in places like that, that could be the distance you need to go to get groceries).

If they can get a chance to stick the knife into the 'dumb' working class that voted in Trump, they'll jump at it. Not the way you should be comporting yourself in a time like this in my mind.

I've been reading news from countries dealing with this for quite some time now. Either directly (Belgium, Dutch, UK, Germany) or via Google Translate (France, Italy, Spain). So now the US is impacted more strongly than before I am reading up on US news more than usual. And it is exhausting. The biggest difference (though the UK has a lite-version of this) is the endless use of adjectives and the constant drive to not just tell me what happened, but how I should feel about it. Give me the death count by all means, but don't put a qualifier in front of it. I don't need some corp to tell me if I am shocked by it or not, I can figure that part out myself. Sure, tell me what this or that politician factually said, the whole extended quote if you please, but don't tell me whether that is brave, insightful, cowardly, narrowminded or whatever. You, the news media, give me the facts and where you got them from. I, the reader, decide what I make of that.

And it has an effect on how people think. I follow (among others) r/politics, which (a long time ago) was a left'ish community about US politics. It then became clearly left, exclusively left, extremely left and now I have no clue what to call it. I've been reading some of the COVID discussions there. It will kill a million Americans. No, ten million. Any bidders for twenty million? FIFTY MILLION! I went to /r/the_donald. Same bizarro nonsense. Reading through a number of different communities on 'both sides' I found every conceivable conspiracy, from Russia plotting to kill 50 million Americans with this using Trump as a secret agent, to the idea that the virus doesn't exist and NY has fake hospitals recordings because there are no victims. The deep state is plotting a hostile take-over! No, the GOP is about the institute a dictatorship! Haha, it will kill all the old trump-supporters! Haha, it will kill all the liberals in the big cities!

It is mental. And while every country has its fair share of unstable individuals, the polarizing split here is just pretty unique. I am way to the left of the DNC, but the mere suggestion that the COVID19 mortality rate is absolutely no where near 30%(!) instantly makes me a trumpeteer, a russian bot, a crisis-denier. Have some downvotes!

As for your remark about the NYT and their digs at rural America: didn't see that myself, but not discarding that it happens. However, I did read this article:

Photos: In Rural Towns and on Remote Farms, the Virus Creeps In (Published 2020)

In places where social distancing was already a way of life, the relentless pandemic has begun to reshape the economy.

www.nytimes.com

It didn't strike me as negative about those communities (though to which extent it is true is something else). And even if the text is no good to some, to me some of the photos are pretty gorgeous!

 

[jasonbarron]

Probably, but they shouldn't have to.

What other choice is there to make?

Everyone standing together is a pipedream. Best I can do is stand with the people I care about and let them know that there is another choice.

Really? I'm all ears. What other choice would that be?

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

So all the Ministers and the CMOH are in masks today, with hand sanitizer in use as they take turns removing the mask and speaking.

All restaurants and caterers closed. Not even deliveries.
Bakeries permitted to continue operations.
Hardwares limited to 4 hours a day.
Groceries closed by 6 pm. Pharmacies at 8pm.
Distribution of goods to stop at 4 pm.

Bar owners chucked in jail for opening their bars after police warnings. The measures are getting tighter daily.
It sure looks like we are shooting for eradication of the disease, not "flattening the curve" unless you want to count a flatline. When you start early enough, it is possible.

Got called out to handle a critically ill nonCovid case yesterday, with a huge 2 litre bleed. So IV access, intubate, catheterize, morphia, NG line, etc.
We secured that after 3 hours work, but no blood in the Bank because nobody's donating anymore. I have the wrong group. Transferred the case, incinerated the bedding. Our security guy snagged him a unit of blood from another private centre. It was good but not nearly enough.

It's likely that the man will die awaiting definitive surgery. Is that a Covid death? Not going to count as one, but it is secondary to the epidemic. Spent hours with his wife on the phone; she has dementia, and it took long to convey the situation.

BBC has a good piece on "moral injury", sustained by those in service.

Coronavirus: Why healthcare workers are at risk of moral injury

War veterans can experience trauma known as moral injury - now health workers are at risk too.

www.bbc.com

There is going to be years of additional casualties/drug abuse/alcoholism among HC staffers going forward after the epidemic is over.

 

[Morbad]

Restricted hours and curfews always seemed puzzling to me. I can see it making enforcement easier and curbing the demand for labor, but it also makes distancing harder if everyone has to share the same hours.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I found this interesting tidbit on Seeking Alpha.

*

The below excerpt is from a Italian related press release (the Milano) and is translated via Google Translate (Italian to English), but the message is rather clear.

In Castiglione d'Adda , one of the municipalities in the first red area of Lodigiano, 70 percent of the people who donated blood to Avis were found to have developed antibodies to coronavirus , despite never having had the symptoms of the disease. A discovery that could lead to important developments in the fight against covid-19, making the inhabitants of the town the protagonists of a case study. The newspaper La Stampa reported it this morning in an article by Monica Serra.

Source: Milano

 

[Northpin]

That's all i want to know - if i already have the antibodies
Come on, bring some home use tests

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Lawsuit Against Fox for Its Coronavirus Coverage

is apparently based on constitutionally protected expressions of opinion.

reason.com

Bit more on that lawsuit.
It isn't likely to invalidate the First Amendment.
Personally, I'd disregard it as a nuisance suit within the US framework. It isn't likely to alter human behaviour either when confronted by dichotomy between belief and evidence. Humans just rationalize preexisting beliefs.

 

[AkenBosch]

We secured that after 3 hours work, but no blood in the Bank because nobody's donating anymore. I have the wrong group. Transferred the case, incinerated the bedding. Our security guy snagged him a unit of blood from another private centre. It was good but not nearly enough.

They had the same problem here at the start, pleaded for people to keep donating (there were of course exemption for going outside for that) even during the lockdown. I'm an O-, have been trying for weeks to book a donation and haven't been able because they've been constantly full of people since. I can't do my part, but at least for a good reason.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

They had the same problem here at the start, pleaded for people to keep donating (there were of course exemption for going outside for that) even during the lockdown. I'm an O-, have been trying for weeks to book a donation and haven't been able because they've been constantly full of people since. I can't do my part, but at least for a good reason.

Yeah that's the one we need.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

I found this interesting tidbit on Seeking Alpha
Source: Milano

If that's generalizable to the public, we might end up with actual herd immunity in Italy.
K, I'm moving to Venice!

mobius venice - Google Search

 

[jasonbarron]

Along the lines of the video I shared the other day about the weatherman acting it up to sell his phony story about a hurricane, comparing it to the covid news reporting by the major media outlets, fake news explicitly cut, edited and designed expressly to sell a false narrative and strike fear into our hearts strikes again:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwNGCOwi0Pk

 

[AkenBosch]

I found this interesting tidbit on Seeking Alpha.

*

The below excerpt is from a Italian related press release (the Milano) and is translated via Google Translate (Italian to English), but the message is rather clear.


Source: Milano

I'm an Avis donor too, and knowing if I had developed antibodies was another good reason to go pay them a visit. I'm still trying. Still plenty of time, alas.

 

[Manticore]

Restricted hours and curfews always seemed puzzling to me. I can see it making enforcement easier and curbing the demand for labor, but it also makes distancing harder if everyone has to share the same hours.

Restricted hours reminds me of this:

Rant: An Oral Biography of Buster Casey is a novel by Chuck Palahniuk released on May 1, 2007

Rant becomes a Nighttimer and finds himself swept up in the Nighttimer lifestyle that revolves around "Party Crashing", a covert demolition derby played out on city streets at night. The game is organized by an unknown entity and is set during a designated window of time. The object of the game is to crash, not too forcefully, into other players who sport a certain "flag", such as a Christmas tree on their car's roof or the words "Just Married" scrawled on their rear windshield. Rant meets Echo Lawrence, a fellow Crasher and the girl with whom he falls in love. Rant also starts a nationwide rabies epidemic that eventually erupts into zombie-invasion-like proportions that calls for those infected with rabies to be shot and killed on sight.

Rant (novel) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jasonbarron]

And the fake news panic mongering is certainly not restricted to American news media. Here's Matt Walsh sharing a story that's been carefully crafted to sow the seeds of panic but on closer examination is pure malarkey:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FiTty0xnvU

 

[Ian Skippy]

Along the lines of the video I shared the other day about the weatherman acting it up to sell his phony story about a hurricane, comparing it to the covid news reporting by the major media outlets, fake news explicitly cut, edited and designed expressly to sell a false narrative and strike fear into our hearts strikes again:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwNGCOwi0Pk

That is why, and this is getting so repetitive it feels rather hopeless, Americans should stop focusing on online anecdotes and exciting news blurbs and start learning statistics, the scientific method, data validation and so forth. Sure, a 'crying nurse' makes for great TV. But it is completely irrelevant when determining what is or isn't happening, and what the extent of the events is. You shouldn;t believe something is the worst thing ever because you a vid of an 'instagram crying nurse'. You shouldn't discard the event because the 'instagram nurse' wasn't real. All of that is garbage 'data'.

This is exactly what I mentioned earlier. The 'US left' is pointing at the obvious horsecrap lies of Fox news and co, the 'US right' is pointing at the obvious lies by the counter parts, and none of them have the moral fortitude and honesty to admit to the failings of 'their own side'. Its a complete freak show, and a uniquely American thing. No science council said:"We recommend [x] because we saw someone cry on instagram!". It is so far removed from reality, how things work, how policy is made, how analysis are performed, how data is collected; it just defies belief that so many Americans fall for this kind of garbage.

 

[AkenBosch]

If that's generalizable to the public, we might end up with actual herd immunity in Italy.
K, I'm moving to Venice!

With all the stuff and places we have here, you want to move to our tourism location equivalent of a Burger King? You don't want to be there when tourists will make their comeback, trust me.

Here, pick your choice, there's plenty:

Source: https://youtu.be/NCkqKZtzIKk

(It's an ironic video, but sadly subtitles lose all the "flavour" of Roman dialect...and a couple bad words too)

 

[jasonbarron]

That is why, and this is getting so repetitive it feels rather hopeless, Americans should stop focusing on online anecdotes and exciting news blurbs and start learning statistics, the scientific method, data validation and so forth. Sure, a 'crying nurse' makes for great TV. But it is completely irrelevant when determining what is or isn't happening, and what the extent of the events is. You shouldn;t believe something is the worst thing ever because you a vid of an 'instagram crying nurse'. You shouldn't discard the event because the 'instagram nurse' wasn't real. All of that is garbage 'data'.

This is exactly what I mentioned earlier. The 'US left' is pointing at the obvious horsecrap lies of Fox news and co, the 'US right' is pointing at the obvious lies by the counter parts, and none of them have the moral fortitude and honesty to admit to the failings of 'their own side'. Its a complete freak show, and a uniquely American thing. No science council said:"We recommend [x] because we saw someone cry on instagram!". It is so far removed from reality, how things work, how policy is made, how analysis are performed, how data is collected; it just defies belief that so many Americans fall for this kind of garbage.

Of course Ian. American's are the only people in the world who have to worry about their news coming with a dollop of horse manure

Edit- Oh, and news flash: plenty of Americans actually DO look past the stupid, reprehensible efforts to constantly lie to us. That's exactly why we support Trump, because we do look past the garbage and the mis-information.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Of course Ian. American's are the only people in the world who have to worry about their news coming with a dollop of horse manure

It is by far the worst I am familiar with. Out of curiosity, which foreign news outlets do you follow? How many languages are you (semi-)fluent in? Also: love the "our lamestream media is the worst!" followed by "how dare you say our media is the worst!" Its okay mate, you can say it: your media is the worst.