Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Jockey79]

Don't get me started on EVE... >.>

Yea, I know - pay a monthly sub for a "spaceship" game, to spend 6 hours without actually going into space.
Or even better, months of work lost to a veteran player who is bored and owns disposable ships and decides to WTFPWN you and laugh as CONCORD blows them up afterwards.

And some advocates cannot figure out why mode switching was a great design choice - that was funded, backed and supported for almost 3 years now?
I love that Star Citizen isn't forcing PvP either and people can move to private servers or move a slider to reduce interactions with other players.
Anyone know what the crack with No Mans Sky will be? Are they PvE / PvP / Mixed ??

 

[Reaper99]

In all honesty...don't see the reason for a debate on this. The game is what it is...I play in all worlds depending on my mood...but for arguments sake I'll break this down according to my play style.

1 I don't want to be bothered by other players....Solo
2. I don't want to be bothered by anyone other than my friends. group
3. I want to make new friends...or...the cat wants the mice to come to him....

number 3 I will explain...the others have no need...I'm not a trader so I don't worry about loosing a long hual to some over eager PVP trigger happy guy ready to ruin my day of play...lets face it...in open play this can happen...some say that's the whole point...ok lets go with that...eve had something like this...open sandbox...pve players and pvp...but there was some protected space...where the pve crowd did their thing...and unless the PVP'er was stronger than the sector police or whatever...which could happen occationally...there was stiff penalties to killing in this space...not a perfect fix but ok. Whats the going rate for piracy and murder on a player??? 4-5k...something like that...and lets see jacking their goods? ...or lets play this out another way...pvp guy picks on the pve trader...pve trader though ticked gives in and drops cargo...pirate takes cargo...pirate doesn't get dinged for any laws broken....

Now lets throw in that argument for bigger reward...lets add in bigger penalty for fairness...if a player character interacts with another in a nefarious way...should have huge fines auto incurred through out that space...meaning well your a pirate in that political climate...and makes you an enemy all to gether except for unsanctioned outpost...your risk...your rewards...well you get to kill indiscrimately and steal all you want...for a price...that is fair...think about our current climate of laws and sactioned actions...next...now said player has huge bounty on them to...not no piddly 4k bounty...but for every player death caused unsanctioned an extra 50k is added or 100k...doesn't seem fair I suppose...but think on the trader guy mucking out a route...

Now lets add in this...Bounty Hunting...which is what I actually do to cash in...heck I'm happy to get jumped...ill either collect a paycheck...or pay insurance...trust me...it aint gonna hurt me to pay the insurance...and if I get the kill...I gain the paycheck...if I can't for some reason do it on my own...wait...im in open play...buddy 1,2,3 is on...guess what ...they hunt to...wing up...find ole boy...get the payday on him...win win...and I get to do some violent redistribution of cash the way I like ...legal like...wont have a station hating...

I truly like the options...I like being able to hop around...does my hoping from one mode to another affect someone elses play...maybe...but not at a direct cost to them in fun...I hit a conflict zone or res site in either...and player starts shootin at me...I get to shoot back without having any ill effect...and collect my cash...only difference in the other 2 is less chance of griefing only.

in open...I have to be willing to deal with people that love to make life tough on others just to enjoy the power trip or whatever...but...I am ok with that...a even with so many people out there...I don't run in to many in open play...most are decent and friendly...even a pirate that jumped me in my vulture before he figured I wasn't rigged for anything but war...he went with the whole roleplay thing...and was like well I can see you aint got nothing of worth...and I suppose we gotta duke it out now...wouldn't consider letting him slide on this one would ya....I asked him if I had had cargo what he would have done...he said he woulda had me drop a percentage...I said yup...but the only way I get payday is for collectin the want...he grinned and said if you can...said lets see...got my payday...made a friend for my list...

not all play like that...that's just the truth of it...with public gaming...comes the other types too...cant control em...so why make it more rewarding to be them?...that would be my question...in truth ...they should be penalized more...and be worth more to hassle back

peace friends

Peace and prosperity by any means!!

 

[Julissa Silver]

I can agree with this..but the actions of fools did not move nearly as many people out of Open as the design related to the chasing of goals through PvE capture of trophies.

But the fools -did- drive out the vast majority of people that would, all other things being equal, otherwise want to be in Open mode. People chasing trophies and speed-grinding out credits/merits/'necessary items' aren't usually the sort looking for meaningful social interactivity, which is what open mode was advertised as being.

 

[Asp Explorer]

This has most likely been said but why don't all the " I only wanna play in a pvp game with pvp only players" just start a pvp private group like other player groups have eg mobius,others? and then they can just pvp with like minded players.

Been suggested many times - and unfortunately it's always been met with "But we don't want to blow each other up - we want to blow you up! It's not emergent gameplay otherwise!"

These people all want to be seal-clubbers. They cannot handle being the seal

 

[Julissa Silver]

This has most likely been said but why don't all the " I only wanna play in a pvp game with pvp only players" just start a pvp private group like other player groups have eg mobius,others? and then they can just pvp with like minded players.

Because many "PvP players" are merely bullies that enjoy picking on targets that don't, can't or won't fight back, then go about loudly beating their chests and declaring themselves alpha male for winning at internet games while arguing that anyone that doesn't fight or doesn't bow down to their greatness is a "coward", must "man up" and/or "lrn 2 play". I must hasten to add that not ALL PvP players are like that, indeed there are some very excellent and immersed players that add a lot to the game experience.

 

[Reaper99]

Been suggested many times - and unfortunately it's always been met with "But we don't want to blow each other up - we want to blow you up! It's not emergent gameplay otherwise!"

These people all want to be seal-clubbers. They cannot handle being the seal

you know as little sense as that makes...it makes sense...I like baiting the hook for those types

 

[Roybe]

Yea, I know - pay a monthly sub for a "spaceship" game, to spend 6 hours without actually going into space.
Or even better, months of work lost to a veteran player who is bored and owns disposable ships and decides to WTFPWN you and laugh as CONCORD blows them up afterwards.

And some advocates cannot figure out why mode switching was a great design choice - that was funded, backed and supported for almost 3 years now?
I love that Star Citizen isn't forcing PvP either and people can move to private servers or move a slider to reduce interactions with other players.
Anyone know what the crack with No Mans Sky will be? Are they PvE / PvP / Mixed ??

Yes...it solves the problem of player safety...but the costs to the rest of the game are to high. There is no reason to PvP....so why bother with it? You have to grind through SBC's to get to actually fight. Then you lose money when you win or lose. It prevents you from collecting the more important PvE trophies so that you can get proper rewards...so why bother with it at all...just do away with it by removing friendly fire.

I do not like the idea that all modes can interact with the BGS...but since anyone can have positive or negative interactions with anyone through this system...it seems more fair than what the game offers to PvP players. There are no positive outcomes for PvP players in the 'real galaxy'.

Once CQC opens, remove friendly fire from the game completely, let the PvP players play CQC, and those that do not find CQC to their liking...just follow the PvE players that are tired of grinding.

 

[Dave1235]

I read it as the game had pvp not is pvp, but if people key in on a word and just jump.. why should everyone else be punished to suit them?

Same here, I was under the impression PVP was going to be "rare and meaningful". To be fair the AI have only recently become good enough to (in numbers for the better players) be anything other than targets, I was in a Hires just now and I left with no shields and a broken canopy.

I only carry 1 SCB (which was empty after the many good fights I just had) but I was in a half decent Python. A dangerous Python and 2 Adders, I melted the adders pretty quick but I lost my shields and had to run for a bit, the last few minutes I was on life support, gotta love A grade LS!, I made 180K as I knew I had time to finish the fight.

I fully expect FD to bring consequences in at some point, if you have a 7 figure bounty you should not be able to spend more than 10 minutes in a system that hates you, and when they find you they should put real effort in to killing you.

In Anarchy's there need to be pirate stations where the opposite is true, the AI should see bounties as a sign of respect and keep clean bounty hunters away, IMO there should be pirate "rep" for cargo acquired without killing or something?, the opposite of faction rep. Both sides will separate a little but still encounter each other in the systems in the middle.

If they ever bring in proper consequences for peoples actions we might drown in salty tears, sorry don't know where that came from , I meant have a few upset people posting here. Mmmm will we see any difference? I doubt it, "move along, nothing to see here"

Edit. Jockey, great story about nightclub duty, you hit that nail on the head, I read it on phone earlier and can't find it to quote right now.

 

[Redleg]

These people all want to be seal-clubbers. They cannot handle being the seal

This made me laugh.....but to be fair PVE players don't like being called Carebears so I can't really go along with it. You are right though in that there is a sizable number of players that once equally challenged in PVP will like water seek the path of least resistance. That being new or unsuspecting players.

 

[Dave1235]

"Meaningful PvP" means different things to different people, so it being left in the hands of players caused the prospect of there ever being meaningful PvP to be destroyed by a handful of colossal berks acting up like bullies, showing no remorse or respect for those they targeted and utterly ignorant of the consequences of their actions. People then accepted the impression that open was filled to the brim with scum and villainy as fact, then did exactly what you said - they left. Thanks to the other modes, they still play Elite. Without such modes they would simply have walked away from the game in disgust, which benefits FD not a jot.

People actually being bullies, jerks and thugs (rather than just playing them) caused the the failure of free, open PvP environments, no more, no less.

As someone said about an earlier quote "I couldn't have put it better myself so I am just going to quote you"

You will have to take virtual rep & virtual Bacon for now as I am out of both (see how I used a capital on Bacon, yes it really is that important!)

 

[Roybe]

But the fools -did- drive out the vast majority of people that would, all other things being equal, otherwise want to be in Open mode. People chasing trophies and speed-grinding out credits/merits/'necessary items' aren't usually the sort looking for meaningful social interactivity, which is what open mode was advertised as being.

Neither of us know our points to be true, and FDev is not talking.

However, I do have a little bit of insight, due to the folks I have been playing with for the past 7 months. And a 9 month old friends list that has 150 people on it. Out of that list, there are roughly 10 players outside the group I play in and the regular 15-20 of those I play with, that have been in the game in the past 4 weeks.

For those I play with, a group of Open players that enjoyed Open....the PvE collections has pushed all of us out of Open...that's around 15-20 regulars and another 20 folks that show up for 'events'. 100% of them. Now, there are a few that are seriously considering leaving the game due to the imposing level of grinding out merits for PP, or trading things for CG's, or killing NPC's for Combat Zones, or grinding out missions to influence a faction....it's just simple, repetitive motions, to attain some mediocre, uneventful, PvE goal. There is nothing of interest occurring...or being created, or changing. There is no living, or breathing. Just mind numbing, suffocating, repetition for PvE 'treasure'.

The modality is the basis of this game...and the modality is the reason that PvE is the supported method of reward. The purpose of the modes might have been player protection...or it might have been to create a back-stabby gameplay....in the end, it's causing the game to remain a shadow of what it should have been.

Embrace the PvE roots of the game..and stop making believe that PvP is here for any reason.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

There is a push for a open PVE server.. and while to you PVE maybe lifeless and empty, for many of us it isn't and it is fun. FD did their best to try and offer both of us a game, but some on one side decided the game had to be their way only.. which is why we are here discussing things again and again and again

If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing noone. It's why you have one side pushing for a pve only mode and the other pushing for a open only mode.

Honestly, this is the only option I feel could work since I've come to grips with the games design. The game has some ideas on how to provide player safety and introduced more problems with it than the issues it tried to address. The reason the game feels so shallow, to so many, is it is a grinder type game. The only way to advance is to grind on some PvE activity. There is no reason to PvP directly against players. There is no extrinsic reward for it. Nor is there much skill...until the last health potion is taken by either player....which adds grind on top of PvP....go figure!

So why keep up the charade. Once CQC comes online...remove friendly fire...and the game becomes the PvE game it really wants to be.

I understand what you mean, in some cases I actually agree with you. I just don't want to see pvp be removed, even though in some ways it would be a kinder death then the slow one it's suffering.

 

[Jockey79]

Neither of us know our points to be true, and FDev is not talking.

However, I do have a little bit of insight, due to the folks I have been playing with for the past 7 months. And a 9 month old friends list that has 150 people on it. Out of that list, there are roughly 10 players outside the group I play in and the regular 15-20 of those I play with, that have been in the game in the past 4 weeks.

For those I play with, a group of Open players that enjoyed Open....the PvE collections has pushed all of us out of Open...that's around 15-20 regulars and another 20 folks that show up for 'events'. 100% of them. Now, there are a few that are seriously considering leaving the game due to the imposing level of grinding out merits for PP, or trading things for CG's, or killing NPC's for Combat Zones, or grinding out missions to influence a faction....it's just simple, repetitive motions, to attain some mediocre, uneventful, PvE goal. There is nothing of interest occurring...or being created, or changing. There is no living, or breathing. Just mind numbing, suffocating, repetition for PvE 'treasure'.

The modality is the basis of this game...and the modality is the reason that PvE is the supported method of reward. The purpose of the modes might have been player protection...or it might have been to create a back-stabby gameplay....in the end, it's causing the game to remain a shadow of what it should have been.

Embrace the PvE roots of the game..and stop making believe that PvP is here for any reason.

What is with you and the melodrama suddenly?
PvP is an *OPTIONAL* component of the game for people to enjoy. Remember, it was advertised as being "rare and meaningful" - it's either plentiful and pointless or non existent at all. So instead of the "woe is me" attitude, why not think of and suggest ways of improving the current set up (in the relevant areas of the forums).

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Because many "PvP players" are merely bullies that enjoy picking on targets that don't, can't or won't fight back, then go about loudly beating their chests and declaring themselves alpha male for winning at internet games while arguing that anyone that doesn't fight or doesn't bow down to their greatness is a "coward", must "man up" and/or "lrn 2 play". I must hasten to add that not ALL PvP players are like that, indeed there are some very excellent and immersed players that add a lot to the game experience.

Absolutely brilliant and I agree with every word, a full 100%. Have some rep.

 

[Dave1235]

So basically you're saying to sever the gangrene arm instead of trying to save it? That's certainly the direct approach, but not an opinion I share. To me pvp is the only part that feels lively. Pve is so.......lifeless and empty.

Pvp is the only thing justifying open mode. If they remove it then they might as well just remove open all together. The coop in this game is practically non existent.

If the real pvp were to ever dry up so would my interest in the game.

I agree, I want the choice to go out there and meet real pirates, if there is no threat you lose a whole career path, and Open PVP bounty hunters will feel the ripples (or tidal waves).

I don't pirate and only BH AI, I made > 1.5 mill in a Hires in 1 hour tonight, I don't need players bounties but I understand that's the excitement for some and if that's their preferred play-style then crack on, I might even give it a go myself one day, not likely but I haven't ruled it out.

Its part of the design, some say its bad, I say great, just like opinions we all have options too, that we can change on a session by session basis.

 

[Julissa Silver]

First, anecdotal player experience is... well, anecdotal. It offers no real insight whatsoever. My friend list is full of dozens of people that would never, ever play this game if mode switching was taken away. Cuts both ways, still means absolutely nothing.

The modality is the basis of this game...and the modality is the reason that PvE is the supported method of reward. The purpose of the modes might have been player protection...or it might have been to create a back-stabby gameplay....in the end, it's causing the game to remain a shadow of what it should have been.

Modality is the reason that PvE is the method for victory? Er... You couldn't be more wrong. In fact it seems entirely backwards. PvP was from the very beginning intended to be RARE AND MEANINGFUL. I can't make that any more obvious without using garish colours and bigger fonts (or maybe a picture of a cat holding a sign). PvP was never, EVER, not in a month of Sundays or five blue moons EVER intended to be the designed measure of success or victory. PvE was, that's what a sandbox is. Experiencing and playing with the environment. The game. It's not a dirty concept, and though some can argue that it's not been implemented in a particularly fulfilling or imaginative way, there is still a huge amount of room for players to set goals and achievements for themselves and they could do it all without ever having to go smack newbies around or engage in meaningless, non-consenting aggression against other players.

Players broke open, if open is indeed broken. The modes only gave a lower threshold of tolerance of stupidity and abuse to other players. So as for "a shadow of what it should have been"? Really? Perhaps for a VERY TINY segment of the overall population. However, as is abundantly clear from just this thread alone (never mind Mobius or any of the other arguments for modes), modality has actually improved the game for many, many more players than however many you say it has crippled it for.

 

[Mouse]

If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing noone. It's why you have one side pushing for a pve only mode and the other pushing for a open only mode.

FD is not trying to please everyone, they offer a balanced game with the option to engage in some activities. Those who advocate only one more or the other are the outliers who can't be satisfied with a game unless it is fully the way they want it.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

And what about all those pages in threads 1 & 2 saying "Social interaction" ~ is that not justifying the need for open mode, so people can meet new people?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying with this.

You must be flying with your eyes shut, I've spent less than 10% of my in game time alone - even when mining I have folks jump in with me, and I go mining to be alone. Be it in private groups, in Mobius or my documented time in open - I always get someone shout me up to team up, or in the case of open someone offered to mentor me.

In the end, I've started using Solo just for some peace from time to time.

I must be jinxed or something, or it could be that I barely ever go to res sites.

Anyone know what the crack with No Mans Sky will be? Are they PvE / PvP / Mixed ??

I would also like to know this. Probably for different reasons but still just as curious nonetheless.

 

[Mouse]

First, anecdotal player experience is... well, anecdotal. It offers no real insight whatsoever. My friend list is full of dozens of people that would never, ever play this game if mode switching was taken away. Cuts both ways, still means absolutely nothing.




Modality is the reason that PvE is the method for victory? Er... You couldn't be more wrong. In fact it seems entirely backwards. PvP was from the very beginning intended to be RARE AND MEANINGFUL. I can't make that any more obvious without using garish colours and bigger fonts (or maybe a picture of a cat holding a sign). PvP was never, EVER, not in a month of Sundays or five blue moons EVER intended to be the designed measure of success or victory. PvE was, that's what a sandbox is. Experiencing and playing with the environment. The game. It's not a dirty concept, and though some can argue that it's not been implemented in a particularly fulfilling or imaginative way, there is still a huge amount of room for players to set goals and achievements for themselves and they could do it all without ever having to go smack newbies around or engage in meaningless, non-consenting aggression against other players.

Players broke open, if open is indeed broken. The modes only gave a lower threshold of tolerance of stupidity and abuse to other players. So as for "a shadow of what it should have been"? Really? Perhaps for a VERY TINY segment of the overall population. However, as is abundantly clear from just this thread alone (never mind Mobius or any of the other arguments for modes), modality has actually improved the game for many, many more players than however many you say it has crippled it for.

Ask and you shall receive.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

FD is not trying to please everyone, they offer a balanced game with the option to engage in some activities. Those who advocate only one more or the other are the outliers who can't be satisfied with a game unless it is fully the way they want it.

How can you say they weren't trying to please everyone? They were trying to get pvpers, pvers/coopers and the offline solo crowd. One didn't pan out so we were just left with the 2. They went too general for the game design, jack of all trades master of none. If they focused on one, the game would have been waay better for it.

Pvp and pve cannot coexist with each other. They are effectively playing a zero sum game. Allowing one diminishes the other.