The Star Citizen Thread v5

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How long do you think it's going to take CIG to deliver the promised 100 systems?

That completely depends upon how much detail and content they intend for each system to have. If they simply take the existing system in the PU (sans missions, as those are custom-coded) and make 99 small derivatives, it could probably be done in a week. However, I suspect Roberts will not take such a copy-paste approach to it.
 
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This video sums up why substance in a smaller world is more important then a huge universe full of nothing. SC if going the right route imo.

On that basis isn't Mass Effect 3 about to completely gut everything SC will have to offer?

I do love how the goalposts have changed though, and the fantasising. So far CIG have shown a microscopic quantity of mission/roleplay content that would fulfil the criteria you're extolling - why do you think they'll suddenly have enough for hundreds of hours of playtime in a year or two? i mean the majority of that is arguing for a Sq42 type game with a distinct plot and SC is meant to be anything but that.

ED's aim was always to have our whole galaxy then build content in bit by bit - they're proceeding as intended. Feel free to step away from it until SC is released then see where ED is for fair comparison, otherwise by the very same arguments that you excuse SC everything (in development!) you have to forgive ED's greater space. Beyond that ED's whole galaxy is not something you MUST consume in the way of enforcing it as being "a really really big game" it's just there and those who don't want to go explore don't have to - but for those that do it's got it's own sights and experiences to offer in a galaxy that should be mostly empty
 
I'm not trying to get into the minutiae of the Elite BGS. I'm simply trying to illustrate that having 3 separate modes in Elite creates a different problem for the game: the player population is segmented and fragmented, and this further leads to some players inferring (rightly or wrongly) that THEIR own playstyle is the "real" one intended by Frontier.
But that's not even a problem to begin with. It is, in fact, what the population wants.

The better option is to have ONE multiplayer mode, with a solid crime/stat system that allows EVERY style of gameplay, but also has serious repercussions for some playstyles.
How is that in any way a “better” option than simply leaving it up to the player to choose, thereby actually allowing every style of gameplay rather than soft-banning some through “serious repercussions” (because unless those repercussions are harsh enough to make those playstyles completely unviable, the measures are irrelevant, whereas if you make them work, you have failed the initial design requirement of allowing every play style).
 
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But that's not even a problem to begin with. It is, in fact, what the population wants.

What some of the population wants. I would argue that only players in group/solo modes want Elite split into 3 modes.

How is that in any way a “better” option than simply leaving it up to the player to choose

Should the player also be able to choose if there are no NPCs present, ever posing ANY threat to their ship and activities?

I guess some would support that, actually... they'd want a slider of "# of NPCs" ranging from 0-Lethal. But to support that sort of ... per-player desire, is to craft a completely different sort of game.

Personally, I cannot find the logic in a player who believes death-from-PvP is some sort of unfair situation. Sarah has coded the game "See that player? Try and kill him." Generally, this is accepted by most reasonable players. But when a HUMAN decides "There's a player. I'm going to try an kill him" - suddenly, that's unfair and we need a solo mode.

Why is the fairness doctrine based on WHO made the decision to kill - Sarah, vs a CMDR?

In the Reddit thread that AgonyAunt mentioned, this EXACT situation occurred. The OP was killed several times by an NPC, and felt it was 'part of the game'. But the moment a human killed him - well, that was unfair griefing.

That sort of complaint makes no sense to me in the least.

EDIT: And again, I do support better crime/punishment in Elite, and hope it is also solid in SC.
 
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What some of the population wants. I would argue that only players in group/solo modes want Elite split into 3 modes.
Still not a problem, other than the aforementioned player problem that any attempt of trying to combine them would create in a different form anyway. Gankers who absolutely want to be able to target everyone would be the ones that would be prohibited from doing so by the kind of punishment mechanics that would be put into place to allow everyone to play in the same mode. So the only players who want one mode are the player who wouldn't be able to have their play style represented in that mode. Whether they know it or not, they want three modes too, because that leaves them one mode that works for them, rather than zero.

Should the player also be able to choose if there are no NPCs present, ever posing ANY threat to their ship and activities?
They pretty much can already. So yes. Short of making the NPCs cheat or just having things blow up at random — neither of which will be accepted in the long run — this comes inherent with all NPC interactions.

Personally, I cannot find the logic in a player who believes death-from-PvP is some sort of unfair situation.
So what? They can, and the game caters to them by offering a mode where that problem doesn't exist. To them, being killed by other players isn't part of the game, and the game they've chosen agrees with them. It's not a particularly difficult logic to see.

At the end of the day, you can only cater to everyone by keeping them separate, pretty much by very definition. The three modes is how FDev has solved the problem with trying to cater to those who want no other players around, and to those who do.
 
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In the Reddit thread that AgonyAunt mentioned, this EXACT situation occurred. The OP was killed several times by an NPC, and felt it was 'part of the game'. But the moment a human killed him - well, that was unfair griefing.

That sort of complaint makes no sense to me in the least.

Before online gaming there were only ever NPCs and games used various methods to skillmatch those NPCs against you so the challenge was fair.

Human players are not skillmatched, and quite often manage to be hugely offensive about it resulting in a fight that's no fun at all for the loser.

It's really not complicated.
 
I do love how the goalposts have changed though, and the fantasising. So far CIG have shown a microscopic quantity of mission/roleplay content that would fulfil the criteria you're extolling - why do you think they'll suddenly have enough for hundreds of hours of playtime in a year or two? i mean the majority of that is arguing for a Sq42 type game with a distinct plot and SC is meant to be anything but that.

Not to mention there's already at least one official CIG video extolling the "emergent gameplay" potential of SC; in my opinion they're so terrified of locking down gameplay mechanics in case it derails the money train that they're shifting the focus away from what would generally be considered "content" entirely. Instead of offering a massive universe with very little to do (Jim Sterling's bugbear), they're going to offer a tiny handful of systems with nothing to do, which is hardly an improvement. But if you don't enjoy it, it's now your own fault.
 
At the end of the day, you can only cater to everyone by keeping them separate, pretty much by very definition.

That's true, if your goal is to cater to everyone. I would posit that this is a poor goal.

- - - Updated - - -

But if you don't enjoy it, it's now your own fault.

Isn't that the standard reply from an Elite Whiteknight, when one describes the game as "mile-wide, inch-deep"?
 
Well, regarding the 64-bit thing, look elsewhere in this thread for a lot of mincing around on definitions. Spoiler: "64-Bit custom engine" doesn't have any particular meaning, 64-bit positioning sort of has a meaning, but could be twisted, 64-bit floating point (aka double precision) positioning has a pretty clear meaning and is actually what is. He's still adamant that the positioning is a 32-bit with floating origin, I don't know why, it's a totally reasonable (worked well enough for Elite) way to do things, so CIG would have just said they did that, but because they didn't do that, they said they did the thing they actually did. "It has emerged" apparently. From where I dare not ask.
He creates a false dichotomy between MMOs that instance their areas, and ones that have a single world and you have to create a new character or pay to move between. He literally undermines it with an example of LoD allowing people to move from server to server. Another obvious counterexample is WoW, which has explicit servers you can't move between, but still instances certain areas. I don't know much about the network plans for SC, but he misrepresents the obstacles it would have to overcome to make it look impossible.
Next section: Apparently an engine switch would be ridiculous but for some reason Unreal 4 would be a good move it it weren't so much work to do the port? No explanation given why UE4 would be a great engine for MMOs. Ignore and move on.
He then links to a forum post where someone called Loiosh describes a very sensible way to cut down network stalls, and he shoots it down because "it would break the server loading of assets that require textures". Just unpack that for a moment. Firstly, the idea that you couldn't un-break that by making changes to the server. Secondly, why would the server be loading textures to begin with? Gods' sakes, man, where is it going to draw them? Unless what he's saying here is that the server, receiving a message that says "load this whole ship", would no longer be able to work out not to load textures, which is equally hopeless.
Ok, then we reference CryEngine 4. Which doesn't exist.
He then compares Lumberyard changelog sizes with CryEngine 3 patch notes length, I think to imply that Lumberyard is a much greater set of changes, moments before quoting me, complaining that CE3 patch notes tend not to include all the changes they made. Bravo.
Then we get to some shade-throwing about whether it's actually 50% edited, and wait.. "I can safely say that it’s completely inconceivable that both of these dev teams have made exactly the same revisions (tweaks, fixes, improvements etc) to CE3.x, and to the extent that both engines are comparable to each other." Finally something I can 100% agree with. Besides straightforward typo-type bugs, the changes are almost certainly going to be different. Hell, I'd say that over 95% of devs on this planet would agree with him on that one.
We get back to form quickly though:
"Given the facts of both engines, and the nature of game development in general, there isn’t a single game dev on this planet, who will look at those statements and find anything factual in them."
As usual, Derek presumes to speak for the entire planetary games industry. I'm putting my hand up, here, I'm on this planet, and I think the claim that it took two days is factual. Even if they hand-integrated some key updates, because if you've got the version-control history and you know what you're doing, it just ain't that hard. The best I can make out, he's simultaneously arguing that an engine switch is a massively complex fool's errand, and also that it's a tiny and meaningless change. That it's a failure of open development that all this work wasn't shared with backers, and also that 2.6 doesn't have enough Lumberyard runtime components in it for much work to have been done.
"By all accounts, either they are currently working on the full switch to Lumberyard – which, given the massive undertaking – is going to take the better part of 2017 if you ask me – or this was a publicity stunt in order to use Amazon". False dichotomy, see the buffet analogy.
The next part is the part I like best though. He gives a whole list of features that Lumberyard might provide, including DX12, Vulkan (it's spelled with a K, Derek), and console support. He then says none of those would be possible without throwing out a significant percentage of the work done in the last few years. Here I was like, OK, you're downplaying the benefits of the switch, solid argument. BUT NO! No, the "fact" that it would require a massive deletion of all the stuff that's been done, INCREASES the chance that it's all in aid of a console port: "All of a sudden, those rumors of an inevitable console port aren’t looking so far-fetched now after all, are they?" Seriously. This is S-Grade trolling, I never saw it coming, I gotta tip my fancy hat to him for that one.

Edit: I totally get that there are reasons for people, and people in this thread, to dislike CIG or Star Citizen. Most are touchy territory that I don't touch. But fictitious technical problems shouldn't be among them.

Don't worry, I will never make out that any narrative is simplistic.
I fully accept that Mr Smart being wrong doesn't really affect the status of development, but if he shows up somewhere that I am, saying things that are wrong, I'm going to say that he's wrong. I try to stick to verifiables but when it comes to shoving words in the mouths of "all game developers" or "anyone in the industry" or whatever, just disagreeing with him is, effectively, a verifiable counter argument.

Yep, and apparently this switch was all the bad news that Smart was gleefully gloating over for months, so I guess we're in the clear?

+42 Rep's For you Ben! Top quality posting from a real proven game developer with experience in the top space games in "existence" atm.
While some may feel bad about you putting some lies in check and clearing the "fog" of the usual petty fud remarks I say keep it up! Your a bliss for this thread.

Been awhile but I felt it should be said.

Happy 2017 Everyone!

Here's how I feel my brains looks like after the new year's eve party :D
gBHUDWf.jpg

Here's to a 2017 filled with amazing gaming experiences to everyone!

Overly Enthusiastic SM review:
[video=youtube;qtFHmeaFGcM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtFHmeaFGcM&t=303s[/video]
Squadron Battle Dogfight with the almighty Aurora LN:
[video=youtube;pV-gHdBRZa4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV-gHdBRZa4[/video]
 
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Before online gaming there were only ever NPCs and games used various methods to skillmatch those NPCs against you so the challenge was fair.

So... back around 1993. People are complaining because they can only compete in a 24-year-old game environment.
 
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Human players are not skillmatched, and quite often manage to be hugely offensive about it resulting in a fight that's no fun at all for the loser.

It's really not complicated.

In addition, those players tend to go out of their way to seek out or create inherently unbalanced and unmatched situations — in their favour, natch — which just further reinforces the logic. The e-honoraburu space-bushido nonsense that would be the alternative is something that doesn't ever play out in practice.

That's true, if your goal is to cater to everyone. I would posit that this is a poor goal.
It was the goal you set up.
 
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
*Mod hat off

It's solved it for some, and not for others. The problem FDev has with the multiple modes is that the BGS can be equally affected by both Open and Mobius (for example).

So if your goal in Elite is to flip a system (or stop a flip) - there are limits to what you can and can't do, in Open - because you cannot engage ALL the players making a dent in the CG from the safety of Private.

This is a common misconception about Elite that was debated to death long ago. The result has not changed since then I am afraid. The point is a bit moot.

No one would be able to "engage all the players" even if everyone was playing in OPEN. A couple of reasons for that: First, the very same substance of how networking works in Elite limiting how many players you can actually see in your instance at any given time. Second that the moment-to-moment mechanics and combat timing related gameplay (module balancing, flight model and TTK) has been designed around that limited environment and small groups skirmishes, in other words combat in Elite also takes time and so on a purely time basis you would never be able to "engage ALL the players" even if of all them were in your same area.

This is not EVE where there is really a single shard (even with time dilation for huge battles etc) and where WYSIWYG and you can coordinate a big fleet where really everyone can see everyone and create real blockades and choke points in territorial gameplay. In Elite you wont be able to see everyone even if we were all in OPEN, wether certain players are in different OPEN instance than yours or they are in GROUP mode is all the same to you: You wont see them anyways.

And that is also why the territorial and BGS mechanics have been designed they way they have, they are based on aggregated player effort, irrespective of game mode. OPEN players in each side of a conflict counter themselves either directly or via their aggregated efforts in different instances, and SOLO/GROUP players in different sides counter each other aswell.

So, on that basis and coming back to the original point about griefing/security, yes it would seem FDEV has solved that particular issue by offering the choice to the player.

Having said that I am personally in favour of a much more draconian security system in High Sec systems (as ruthless and efficient as EVE's Concord), and also I am in favor of BGS and PP progress points (not credit rewards) incrementally higher for OPEN players due to the added difficulty/challenge.
 
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So... back around 1993. People are complaining because they can only compete in a 24-year-old game environment.

lol :D

no. just no. it's just people play games to have fun and not all of them want to wave their e-peens around and be the biggest baddest e-peen who's killed the most people. sometimes they just want to play a game with friends against common enemies and have fun
 
I'm not trying to get into the minutiae of the Elite BGS. I'm simply trying to illustrate that having 3 separate modes in Elite creates a different problem for the game: the player population is segmented and fragmented, and this further leads to some players inferring (rightly or wrongly) that THEIR own playstyle is the "real" one intended by Frontier.

Note how many people say "Elite isn't a PvP game" or "If it wasn't, there would be no PvP opportunities."

The better option is to have ONE multiplayer mode, with a solid crime/stat system that allows EVERY style of gameplay, but also has serious repercussions for some playstyles.

I guess ill disagree. No C&P system is perfect. There will always be those who will work around it. Many games provide different modes, different servers, where players of different styles can play with those who like the same style as they do. Many games have PvE servers separate from PvP servers. If FD could do it, i might even be an idea to fully separate the BGSes... then those who like PvP can't complain about PvEers affecting their BGS... although how active their BGS would be would be interesting to see without the PvErs there to work it. I suppose there might by enough hybrid PvP/PvE players around to make some effect, but as the ED playerbase is overwhelmingly PvE focused, hard to imagine there would be enough to actually make it worth FD's while to have it active.
 
Not only that, but games in the 80's where painfully and horribly hard compared to today standards.

So those that played 80 and 90 games can easily compete in nowadays games.

Back then - you sometimes had to be absolutely pixel perfect too - none of this hitbox or autoaim rubbish :D
 
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