The Star Citizen Thread v5

[lysan]

They should make the FM feel right, just like ED's FM feels right. How they do it doesn't really matter as its a game and not a simulator. No one here will ever try it for real, no one here will ever use it to keep their skill level up like when you use prepar3d or FSX with full modelled aircrafts.

Make the damn game fun and stop claiming that its the second coming of space sim, because at this point it's not, that time has gone for sure.

 

[303i]

And then we'll probably be told to wait for 3.4 to complain.

I get your point, but it's pretty common for CIG to show WIP stuff with unfinished animations or textures that are fixed by release. Animations are visual fluff on top of actual physics implementation, so it's reasonable to assume that they'll be dealt with at a later point, or are disabled for now. In a similar fashion, the first release of the Xi'An scout was missing some animations/FX that was dealt with in a later patch.

It's like the "programmers art" shown in the recent bugsmashers for the inner-thought system. When the system is functionally complete, it'll be handed to a UI designer to spice up.

They should make the FM feel right, just like ED's FM feels right.

TBH if you're a big fan of the ED flight model, it's possible that the SC flight model will never feel "right" to you. In the same fashion, some SC players find the ED flight model slow and clunky.

 

[VidarSnipes]

Wait, so the argument was that ships movements are realistically calculated based on the thrust from individual thrusters applied to a rigid body spaceship frame, and the entire body of evidence was "the ship can strafe", "you can see thruster animations", and Roberts' two years old writeup? Problems with that: Elite ships can strafe and they have visible thrusters as well, but no one claims that there is some kind of uber-complicated, immersive physics engine behind it. I can believe that a described system has existed before (Aurora's flight model was quite interesting in 0.8) but I'm sure the physics have been dumbed down since (which isn't a bad thing, unless you claim the entire system is complex when it isn't). Having CIG admit to it is quite impossible, though, and finding it perhaps more so, as it's hidden behind the vast amount of almost contentless text and videos they produce.
Still, there are some examples of the uber-realistic SC physics out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs2u5UP7u3M

 

[Neo-ST]

TBH if you're a big fan of the ED flight model, it's possible that the SC flight model will never feel "right" to you. In the same fashion, some SC players find the ED flight model slow and clunky.

SC flight model doesn't feel "right", but not because one is used to another game's flight model, be it ED, X, Evochron, X-wing, I-war2 or something else, but because it's completely broken.
Ships stop and go on a dime, no sense of mass, no way to control them properly with a Hotas, steering feels wonky, the whole game is designed for mouse&keyboard (tell me when was the last time you've seen anyone from CIG using Hotas to demonstrate something about the game?), etc.

Simply put, it's crap. It's pig in a poke and a lie that begun in 2012.

 

[303i]

Wait, so the argument was that ships movements are realistically calculated based on the thrust from individual thrusters applied to a rigid body spaceship frame, and the entire body of evidence was "the ship can strafe", "you can see thruster animations", and Roberts' two years old writeup? Problems with that: Elite ships can strafe and they have visible thrusters as well, but no one claims that there is some kind of uber-complicated, immersive physics engine behind it. I can believe that a described system has existed before (Aurora's flight model was quite interesting in 0.8) but I'm sure the physics have been dumbed down since (which isn't a bad thing, unless you claim the entire system is complex when it isn't). Having CIG admit to it is quite impossible, though, and finding it perhaps more so, as it's hidden behind the vast amount of almost contentless text and videos they produce.
Still, there are some examples of the uber-realistic SC physics out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs2u5UP7u3M

Again, I would invite you to read these (everyone in this thread appeared to have forgotten about them):
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/13951-Flight-Model-And-Input-Controls
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...31-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Flight-Model-Changes

They outline quite clearly how the flight model works.

Collision physics is another ballpark entirely, and has barely been worked on at all.

 

[Remus]

Sure it does

https://youtu.be/h79a-Y4nemw

Ehr, am I seeing things or do I see a grid appear at 1:07 ?

at the bottom left you can clearly see a grid made of hexagons, what is a grid doing in an "open world" environment ?

One can only wonder why they decided to cut right at that moment. What are they hiding ?

My guess, maybe all that beautiful landscape is nothing but a "wallpaper", a backdrop if you will.

The ship flies in an enclosed bubble, from which it cannot exit.

And once you make a quick look at the "ground" it looks horribly clunky, my guess is that they will implement a "zone" in 2.7 that will allow players to "fly"in an atmospheric conditions, but they will be unable to land or to go freely exploring the "planet".

But, I can be proven wrong, let's wait for gamescom.

 

[VidarSnipes]

Again, I would invite you to read these (everyone in this thread appeared to have forgotten about them):
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/13951-Flight-Model-And-Input-Controls
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...31-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Flight-Model-Changes

They outline quite clearly how the flight model works.

Collision physics is another ballpark entirely, and has barely been worked on at all.

First link have been written 2 years ago, and it's way out of date. The flight model has certainly changed more than once since then, and there are as many reasons to believe it's relevant to the current state of the physics simulation as believing the mechanics described in "Death of a spaceman" are implemented already. Everything described in the second link can be implemented in a Elite/I-War like system, based on simple XML values.
TL;DR Not an evidence.

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Ehr, am I seeing things or do I see a grid appear at 1:07 ?

at the bottom left you can clearly see a grid made of hexagons, what is a grid doing in an "open world" environment ?

This video was filmed in the racing module with a bug that allowed the player to go out beyond the boundary marked by that grid.

 

[303i]

SC flight model doesn't feel "right", but not because one is used to another game's flight model, be it ED, X, Evochron, X-wing, I-war2 or something else, but because it's completely broken.
Ships stop and go on a dime, no sense of mass, no way to control them properly with a Hotas, steering feels wonky, the whole game is designed for mouse&keyboard (tell me when was the last time you've seen anyone from CIG using Hotas to demonstrate something about the game?), etc.

Simply put, it's crap. It's pig in a poke and a lie that begun in 2012.

Sorry, but that's just your opinion. Outside of collision physics I have little issue with the flight model (and flight model discussions in SC communities post-2.0 are relatively rare). Something big like the Starfarer certainly doesn't "stop and go on a dime", and everything Freelancer/Vanguard or larger has a sense of mass. You might want to consider that the current flight model has to scale up to ships like the 890J and Hull series. If a hornet felt like a moving brick, then the larger ships would be borderline unflyable. HOTAS viability has been up and down for many patches. At some points, a HOTAS was used by the majority of top AC players. I'm unsure of current balance, but general complaints about mouse being OP vs HOTAS have dropped off heavily in the past year.

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Ehr, am I seeing things or do I see a grid appear at 1:07 ?

at the bottom left you can clearly see a grid made of hexagons, what is a grid doing in an "open world" environment ?

One can only wonder why they decided to cut right at that moment. What are they hiding ?

My guess, maybe all that beautiful landscape is nothing but a "wallpaper", a backdrop if you will.

The ship flies in an enclosed bubble, from which it cannot exit.

And once you make a quick look at the "ground" it looks horribly clunky, my guess is that they will implement a "zone" in 2.7 that will allow players to "fly"in an atmospheric conditions, but they will be unable to land or to go freely exploring the "planet".

But, I can be proven wrong, let's wait for gamescom.

That video is from the racing module, which existed far before the 64-bit implementation, PG planets, or the atmo flight model. The "planet" you're seeing is just an arena level that was hand-built, and has nothing to do with planetary implementation or any future patch.

 

[Neo-ST]

Sorry, but that's just your opinion. Outside of collision physics I have little issue with the flight model (and flight model discussions in SC communities post-2.0 are relatively rare). Something big like the Starfarer certainly doesn't "stop and go on a dime", and everything Freelancer/Vanguard or larger has a sense of mass. You might want to consider that the current flight model has to scale up to ships like the 890J and Hull series. If a hornet felt like a moving brick, then the larger ships would be borderline unflyable. HOTAS viability has been up and down for many patches. At some points, a HOTAS was used by the majority of top AC players. I'm unsure of current balance, but general complaints about mouse being OP vs HOTAS have dropped off heavily in the past year.

Do you have a Hotas and use it for SC ?

 

[A Trill Dog]

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/13951-Flight-Model-And-Input-Controls


.

Everything in there is written as if it was already in the game -

"In the very same way we also simulate the ship systems. Every function is tied to individual items that are “plugged” into the ship – the weapons, the thrusters, power plant, heat sinks, radar, fuel tank, batteries, targeting system, CPU, HUD and even the Intelligent Flight Control System (IFCS) are all items that tie into various “pipes” that connect the systems – there’s a pipe for power, heat, fuel and CPU cycles. The targeting computer needs power from the Power Plant and CPU cycles from the Ship’s Computer, positional information from the Radar to resolve targets. If there aren’t enough CPU cycles to go around the targets will resolve slower, not enough power and the targeting computer may stop functioning all together. If you don’t draw off enough heat from the weapons, they may overheat, malfunction or even become damaged. If one of your wings gets blown off with its attached heat sinks, you better scale back your heat output.."


but pretty much none of it really is in the PU, is it? If all that is not true, why should we assume the rest is?

 

[lysan]

I get your point, but it's pretty common for CIG to show WIP stuff with unfinished animations or textures that are fixed by release. Animations are visual fluff on top of actual physics implementation, so it's reasonable to assume that they'll be dealt with at a later point, or are disabled for now. In a similar fashion, the first release of the Xi'An scout was missing some animations/FX that was dealt with in a later patch.

It's like the "programmers art" shown in the recent bugsmashers for the inner-thought system. When the system is functionally complete, it'll be handed to a UI designer to spice up.


TBH if you're a big fan of the ED flight model, it's possible that the SC flight model will never feel "right" to you. In the same fashion, some SC players find the ED flight model slow and clunky.

I didn't say copy ED's FM, I said "feel right". You can make a 180 complete different FM and it still feel right. There are no feeling of mass in the SC FM, it's a balloon nothing more.

And of course they find it slow and clunky, they like twist action games, they say the same thing about Armas arvatar controls.

 

[Jon93]

They should make the FM feel right, just like ED's FM feels right. How they do it doesn't really matter as its a game and not a simulator. No one here will ever try it for real, no one here will ever use it to keep their skill level up like when you use prepar3d or FSX with full modelled aircrafts.

"They say that approaching the planet looks and technically feels better than with Elite Dangerous."* So this is a good sign. Albeit SC models drag, turbulence(?) and acceleration due to gravity whereas E thus far only does the latter (?) with the airless rocks which might inevitably make them not as easy to compare.

* https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4u91db/comprehensive_summary_of_the_info_from_the/

Also I see I left quite a stir yesterday and so let me clarify that my whole issue with E:s apparent instancing is that it even had to stop and load something at all whereas SC is- or rather feels entirely seamless in the PU and plans to continue being that way. It doesn't matter whether the game is changing server instance, transition instance, or whatever. It's a distraction that takes you out of the moment when you're frozen in space or above a planet surface for around 10 seconds. At least in hyperspace they can mask that. This was my original point.

 

[Neo-ST]

* https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4u91db/comprehensive_summary_of_the_info_from_the/

There's your SC in a nutshell:

• they are saying
• They say
• They say
• They aim
• There will be
• seemingly are planned
• these can be
• They are writing
• might have hobbies
• they intend to improve
• They intend to mesh

 

[VidarSnipes]

Also I see I left quite a stir yesterday and so let me clarify that my whole issue with E:s apparent instancing is that it even had to stop and load something at all whereas SC is- or rather feels entirely seamless in the PU and plans to continue being that way. It doesn't matter whether the game is changing server instance, transition instance, or whatever. It's a distraction that takes you out of the moment when you're frozen in space or above a planet surface for around 10 seconds. At least in hyperspace they can mask that. This was my original point.

The problem is, there is no indication SC won't be like that when/if CIG leaves their static server netcode behind them, so it's still a comparison between a far simpler tech demo/testbed and a finished game. As far as I remember, the current netcode in SC broadcasts information about everything to every single player on the server, and that kind of approach has to go sooner or later.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

The problem is, there is no indication SC won't be like that when/if CIG leaves their static server netcode behind them, so it's still a comparison between a far simpler tech demo/testbed and a finished game. As far as I remember, the current netcode in SC broadcasts information about everything to every single player on the server, and that kind of approach has to go sooner or later.

Netcode 2.0, following on from Items 2.0 and Shopping 2.0 will come after Patch 2.7, which is locked in on the delivery roadmap for "after 2.6"... have faith in the development pipeline commando!

 

[VidarSnipes]

What about CIG Management 2.0? What's the deadline on that?

 

[Jon93]

The problem is, there is no indication SC won't be like that when/if CIG leaves their static server netcode behind them, so it's still a comparison between a far simpler tech demo/testbed and a finished game. As far as I remember, the current netcode in SC broadcasts information about everything to every single player on the server, and that kind of approach has to go sooner or later.

Fair enough. We'll have to see onnce the new server system is in place. But I personally doubt they would go with ED:s solution as CR really has been highlighting that he doesn't want any loading screens to take you out of the moment.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Fair enough. We'll have to see onnce the new server system is in place. But I personally doubt they would go with ED:s solution as CR really has been highlighting that he doesn't want any loading screens to take you out of the moment.

Currently that would be the moment where the naked commando parps past you through the alpha alpha alpha verse? Don't throw shade on my immersion, man!

 

[Zetta]

Fair enough. We'll have to see onnce the new server system is in place. But I personally doubt they would go with ED:s solution as CR really has been highlighting that he doesn't want any loading screens to take you out of the moment.

They are not loading screens, didn't we just clear that up yesterday?

 

[xyphic]

Fair enough. We'll have to see onnce the new server system is in place. But I personally doubt they would go with ED:s solution as CR really has been highlighting that he doesn't want any loading screens to take you out of the moment.

I'm fairly sure David Braben wouldn't have wanted any "loading screens" either. But unfortunately wanting something and the technical feasibility of achieving it are two different things. With planetary approach, Frontier had two choices: 1) hold in the 'disengaging glide' phase until you've loaded into the instance; or 2) stream the instance in dynamically but with the risk that players and NPCs pop in. IMO, 2) is more immersion-breaking (i.e. takes you out of the moment) than 1). Neither is ideal. CIG will have to make the same sort of compromise eventually, as they can't simply magic a perfect internet out of nowhere.