The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Ozram]

This is completely madness.....I can't even read it all......It's almost like Roberts making sure that if we singed this TOS he can sue us instead...dear lord this man is lost his marbles....

Well isn't that curious? Their desperation will be the end of them. That doesn't sound like the sort of TOS that can be legally binding on account of the fact it would contradict consumer law (at least in most countries).

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Blimey O'Riley! Or as a certain Nemesis would say if he was quoting Dave Chappelle "Game, Blouses..."
This really does blow the whole thing wide open. It puts all the art-gate stuff into proper perspective...

People need to be extremly carefull now to avoid any logging on RSI website before we get totally sure if this is the real TOS and if can apply to you just by log in..

 

[Rilzi]

Shirely, that ain't never gonna fly!?
Hypothetical situation, you download 2.4 - agree to the T&Cs - you're impressed by what's available and decide to buy a $150 spaceship - let's say that due to website load you get billed for 10 instead of just the 1 - you contact support, they refuse to refund you - your bank are equally useless - according to the T&Cs you are now prohibited to seek recompense in a court of law. LOL like hell...

Also, if your previous T&Cs describe purchases as 'payments' then I'd be surprised if they could retroactively be renamed to 'pledges'. Couldn't the existence of the word in previous T&Cs also be used as proof that CIG do/did consider them as payments?
Kickstarters, gofundme, ie crowdfunding platforms take pledges, it's not something you get in a virtual shop and 'buy now' must refer to the sale of an item, not the pledging towards an item.

I hate the twisting in all of this nonsense. Customers are not pledging, customers are buying on the back of Roberts' pledge (his word) that he will deliver the items you are handing money over for. The giving and the receiving of money is the entering of a contract (the customer has already fulfilled their side of it), the other party has to uphold their end of the contract or you're legally entitled to seek recompense despite anything their T&Cs might say.

If you enter a contract then there must be a reasonable expectation for date of delivery, even if that date is given as 10 years. People would not enter contracts with no end date, that's beyond reasonable expectations. So I would argue that their delay clause is null and void. You can't just take money and then say we'll do it when we can and even then it might be delayed

Not a lawyer, but pretty sure that there are legal rights that cannot be waived in a ToS, so the legal protections would vary by country . Eg in Australia, it doesn't matter what a ToS says, refunds have to be available under certain conditions.

The new ToS are pretty crazy in what they want you to agree to though:

No refunds for -
failure to deliver the game by a certain date;
any changes to the game;
failure to deliver the game - at all;
any changes to pledge items;
failure to deliver pledge items;

You will not claim you 'own' any 'virtual goods'

You will not sue CIG if they delete your account and any 'virtual goods' on it. As long as they have a reasonable cause. Which is at their discretion.



Hey CIG? This kind of thing does not inspire confidence in your company and game.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Guys they updated TOS


"YOU AGREE, THEREFORE, THAT YOU WILL NEVER ASSERT OR BRING ANY CLAIM OR SUIT AGAINST RSI, ITS PARENT COMPANY, DIVISIONS, SUBSIDIARIES, AFFILIATES, OR ANY EMPLOYEES OF ANY OF ABOVE, WHICH IS RELATED TO OR BASED ON, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO; (I) A CLAIM THAT YOU “OWN” ANY VIRTUAL GOODS IN THE GAME, (II) A CLAIM FOR THE “VALUE” OF VIRTUAL GOODS IF RSI DELETES THEM (AND/OR TERMINATES YOUR ACCOUNT) WITH A REASONABLE CAUSE AT RSI’S SOLE DISCRETION"

Oh boy... it looks like they really hit the wall with development and preparing their last defences. I looked at RSI forums - the level of worshipping and praising this mess is unbelievable.

 

[Ozram]

In order to get around the illegality of their TOS in other countries they've come up with this beauty:
"Governing Law. The laws of California, excluding its conflicts-of-law rules, govern these Terms of Service, any other RSI Terms, and your Account(s); and (ii) you expressly agree that exclusive jurisdiction for any claim or dispute with RSI or relating in any way to these Terms of Service, any other RSI Terms, your Account(s), or your use of any RSI Services resides in the Courts of the State of California, and you further agree and expressly consent to the exercise of personal jurisdiction in the courts of the State of California in connection with any such dispute including any claim involving RSI or its affiliates, employees, contractors, officers, directors, vendors and content providers. As noted in these Terms of Service, your conduct may also be subject to other local, state, national, and international laws."
Yeah g right

 

[Zetta]

Hey CIG? This kind of thing does not inspire confidence in your company and game.

Exactly, this sort of weaselness is the shady       you see from dodgy dave the dentist operating out of a lock-up, or restaurants serving crappy food and then trying to prohibit customers from giving negative reviews on Yelp.

It certainly does not inspire confidence.

 

[Rilzi]

It's being talked about on both the RSI forum and the RSI subreddit so looks legit - It does make me concerned about the future of humanity that the majority discussing it there seem not only happy with the changes but are actively defending them.

 

[pappabear]

Hi, I created my account here specifically to talk about the new ToS.

As far as I'm aware, you cannot agree to a perpetuity contract in the United States (Where I am)
I'm pretty angered by this, along with recent events (labeling of customers, plagiarism, etc) and I've put in my refund request..

I have a significant investment in Star Citizen, anyone know any good lawyers for this?

 

[CTCParadox]

Not a lawyer, but pretty sure that there are legal rights that cannot be waived in a ToS, so the legal protections would vary by country . Eg in Australia, it doesn't matter what a ToS says, refunds have to be available under certain conditions.

In reply to me mentioning the situation in Australia regarding Steam/Origin refunds and the new SC ToS someone replied "Since you're not buying a product, you're donating, you'd be hard pressed to get that to stick."
Seems to me that unless CIG is a registered charity this kind of thing wouldn't fly with the Australia Competition & Consumer Commission.

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[Zetta]

Haha throwing some money in a hat or in a collection box or collection bowl is donating, there is zero expectation of receiving goods in return.
If you're paying money on a website's store for a virtual spaceship then you're expecting to receive a fricking virtual spaceship. The compete opposite of donating.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Haven't they been referring to them as Ship Sales all over their website? Unless all that has gone in the great purge?

 

[JOCKEY]

It's plain and simple to me:

CIG are committing FRAUD on every conceivable front as far as EU consumer protection laws are concerned.

This has to be stopped. Any court here would have a field day with CIG's TOS.

 

[MarktJones]

Is there a bit where they get to sleep with your wife on you wedding night?

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Breaking: Lionel Hutz spotted in CiG car park!

 

[Tuub t Tute]

It's plain and simple to me:


CIG are committing FRAUD on every conceivable front as far as EU consumer protection laws are concerned.

This has to be stopped. Any court here would have a field day with CIG's TOS.

I expect that is the problem. By instigating this they are now hiding behind a lawyer pay wall. Unless it does get challenged in court they are free and easy to just keep hitting the Nope button...

 

[Zyll Goliat]

It's plain and simple to me:

CIG are committing FRAUD on every conceivable front as far as EU consumer protection laws are concerned.

This has to be stopped.

Exactly....and it's not about the money,it's must be stooped and it's must be punished or otherwise this LUNATIC threaten to destroy&change so many things in gaming industry it's not even funny anymore...He is threat to all possible future KS projects now he even threaten to change the rules that usually protects customers...if ppl. accept this we will start to loose our legal rights that was build for many years in this gaming area....

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Is there a bit where they get to sleep with your wife on you wedding night?

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Breaking: Lionel Hutz spotted in CiG car park!

Sure but that's reserved just for the CULT members.....they will be honored to share their future wifes with CR!(and I am not kidding anymore)

 

[ianw]

Lol, well at least it's fully out in the open now.

Just give us your money and shut up. Doesn't matter if we can't make a game it's our money now and you agree you can't try and do anything about it coz terms and conditions. So there.

 

[Osmanthus]

This new TOS makes me genuinely angry

 

[ianw]

This new TOS makes me genuinely angry

Actually I think it could assist people going for a refund or chargeback.

Exihibit A -a totally broken non-game.

Exhibit B - trying to impose new conditions that absolve them of any liability to do anything except bank the money and deny people's legal rights.

Seems to be and open and shut case of total bad faith.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

This new TOS makes me genuinely angry

It's not about the game anymore this hit another level...

 

[Neo-ST]

I wonder what will DS have to say on this...

/popcorn