The Star Citizen Thread v5

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It's this bit "a Constellation costing significantly more in in-game credits than it does now if you are pledging and stuff." that bothers me.

Before he had said ~60 hours to earn a Constellation, so just under 3 weeks at 3 hours per night.
If it is now significantly more, lets assume that means 3x more, we're now at 2 months with 3 hours per night, every night, and the Constellation is not a big ship, not much larger than the Cobra Mk3 if I remember correctly.

Why would you want to add this sort of disparity to the game right at the beginning? Why would you want to price low(ish) tier ships so far away from newcomers to the game. It's the sort of decision F2P designers make, put it right on the border of what is acceptable so that people get fed up and think about using the cash shop to avoid the grind.

Valid concern from a game design perspective. But honestly, the very least of Star Citizen's concerns at this point. 4 years, 120$ Mio., a single scripted fetch quest and no reliable idea how system and inter-system travel will work by the game's designers ("could work something like this...")?

Honestly, they're stuck at implementing the most basic features of their game concept. How are they supposed to determine how much ingame credits ingame items will cost exactly, when they don't even have the ingame mechanics of things narrowed down reliyably.


I'll withold judgement and speculation to whenever the game is running in a more complete state. Whenever that is.


But you're spot on with the concern about buyable items. Personally, I'm won't be surprised if fans - even those with the thickest rose tinted glasses - are going to skin CIG alive if the ingame worth of the ships will not align with the perception of worth, that paying real life money for the ships gave them.
 
If SC will not have private/Solo mode in the end like Elite - I predict similar issues with griefers like it is in Elite in Open mode.

I honestly think the game will be a ganking heaven... I will expect CIG's answer to this. Make ships stealthy and reaaly hard to find without proper material, make escape difficult but possible no matter the ships... Plan a serious security system near stations to avoid campers...
 
Well, this is interesting:

http://www.redbull.com/en/games/stories/1331814041509/making-star-citizens-planets-believable

SC getting sponsorship from Red Bull? Will this mean product placement or advertisements in SC? Drinking a can of Red Bull will give your CMDR wings? Extra fuel for your jetpack? The possibilities are endless! :D

But the really interesting part for me was this nugget:

Even though we have 100 star systems, which pales in comparison to billions or quintillions or whatever, with three or four planets each, that is 400 worlds that you have to build with enough detail for a first person shooter, which is what we are doing,” says Roberts

And there you go, right from the horses mouth.

They took a FPS game engine and are spending lots of money to make it into a FPS game engine in order to make a FPS game with spaceships bolted on.

People say SC is going to be a competitor to ED. I think only in terms of those who would prefer a more FPS experience rather than a fly your spaceship game. But since SC is making a more FPS style game, then i would suspect they should be getting very worried about the new Call of Duty, which looks like it is going be be more of a competitor for them.
 
The most significant bit for me that statement is the 100 systems they barely have 1 at the moment after 4 years or whatever. God how long for 10 20 50?
 
The most significant bit for me that statement is the 100 systems they barely have 1 at the moment after 4 years or whatever. God how long for 10 20 50?

No expert here, but crafting assets may not be the most difficult thing to do when you've raised this amount of money and a large team. The hardest thing must be related to the engine, the gameplay, etc.
 
Well, this is interesting:

http://www.redbull.com/en/games/stories/1331814041509/making-star-citizens-planets-believable

SC getting sponsorship from Red Bull? Will this mean product placement or advertisements in SC? Drinking a can of Red Bull will give your CMDR wings? Extra fuel for your jetpack? The possibilities are endless! :D

But the really interesting part for me was this nugget:



And there you go, right from the horses mouth.

They took a FPS game engine and are spending lots of money to make it into a FPS game engine in order to make a FPS game with spaceships bolted on.

People say SC is going to be a competitor to ED. I think only in terms of those who would prefer a more FPS experience rather than a fly your spaceship game. But since SC is making a more FPS style game, then i would suspect they should be getting very worried about the new Call of Duty, which looks like it is going be be more of a competitor for them.

A whole 3 to 4 planets in a system, colour me impressed.
PG has reached a new level of fidelity.

Even though we have 100 star systems, which pales in comparison to billions or quintillions or whatever, with three or four planets each, that is 400 worlds that you have to build with enough detail for a first person shooter, which is what we are doing,” says Roberts
 
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It's this bit "a Constellation costing significantly more in in-game credits than it does now if you are pledging and stuff." that bothers me.

Before he had said ~60 hours to earn a Constellation, so just under 3 weeks at 3 hours per night.
If it is now significantly more, lets assume that means 3x more, we're now at 2 months with 3 hours per night, every night, and the Constellation is not a big ship, not much larger than the Cobra Mk3 if I remember correctly.

Why would you want to add this sort of disparity to the game right at the beginning? Why would you want to price low(ish) tier ships so far away from newcomers to the game. It's the sort of decision F2P designers make, put it right on the border of what is acceptable so that people get fed up and think about using the cash shop to avoid the grind.


Let's compare this to a game that I think has the best "milk the money from players" mechanisms of them all...the World of Warships.
Some of you may have played it, some may not, but I'll try to explain how it works so everyone understands.

You pick your nation of interest for the beginning.
Let's say you pick the Japanese.
All nations have 4 different classes of vessels, from smaller to bigger: destroyers, cruisers, battleships and carriers.
Japan has (arguably) the strongest battleship in game - the Yamato.
I've got it, but it was a long and painful process accompanied with a lot of (real world money) cost.

Why will I compare getting a Yamato to getting a Constellation? Because they both have price tags and they can both be earned without spending the real world money.
The trick with WoWS is, if you go that route, it's gonna cost you - time. If you wanna speed up that process then it's gonna cost you - money and time.

So to keep things simple...

Base price for the Constellation is $280.

WoWS in-game money is called "Doubloons" and for $280 you can get 75.000 doubloons.
WoWS in-game currency is called "Credits". You can convert doubloons into credits to buy stuff.
But, you can't just go and buy the Yamato with converted credits, because you need to have two additional in-game "currencies" called "XP" (experience) and "Free XP".
You earn XP exclusively by playing and in no other way.

Base price for the Yamato is 20.600.000 credits and 959.600 Free XP

There's an important difference between the XP and Free XP, but it would over-complicate the situation if I were to explain it to someone who never played WoWS.

If you were completely dry on credits and XP (which is impossible because all ships during battles create credits and XP, so you'll always have some) - therefore this is the worst case scenario that never happens - the Yamato would cost you:

1 doubloon = 1500 in-game credits
1 XP + 1/25 doubloon = 1 Free XP

Therefore you need:

13.733 doubloons for in-game credits
959.600 XP and 38.384 doubloons to get 959.600 Free XP with which you can research it.

TOTAL: 52.117 doubloons and indeterminable amount of time to gather XPs (varies from person to person, how much you play, how well, etc.) which you convert to Free XP for doubloons.

In conclusion:
52.117 doubloons cost $195.
Therefore, the Yamato costs less real money than the Constellation, but takes a lot of time to gather enough XPs.

I sometimes used doubloons to skip grinding certain ships and even with that, it took me well over 3-4 months to get to Yamato.
Some of my friends who I play with, didn't want to spend money and are still grinding for Yamato. I bet it's been half a year they're working on it (not intensively, though).

So, if CIG decides to use similar money/grind ratio, I reckon you'd need at least 5-6 months to get to Constellation just by playing.

I know the comparison may by completely off and invalid, but there you go.
 
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Let's compare this to a game that I think has the best "milk the money from players" mechanisms of them all...the World of Warships.
Some of you may have played it, some may not, but I'll try to explain how it works so everyone understands.

You pick your nation of interest for the beginning.
Let's say you pick the Japanese.
All nations have 4 different classes of vessels, from smaller to bigger: destroyers, cruisers, battleships and carriers.
Japan has (arguably) the strongest battleship in game - the Yamato.
I've got it, but it was a long and painful process accompanied with a lot of (real world money) cost.

Why will I compare getting a Yamato to getting a Constellation? Because they both have price tags and they can both be earned without spending the real world money.
The trick with WoWS is, if you go that route, it's gonna cost you - time. If you wanna speed up that process then it's gonna cost you - money and time.

WoWS in-game money is called "Doubloons" and for $280 you can get 75.000 doubloons.
WoWS in-game currency is called "Credits". You can convert doubloons into credits to buy stuff.
But, you can't just go and buy the Yamato with converted credits, because you need to have two additional in-game "currencies" called "XP" (experience) and "Free XP".

There's an important difference between the XP and Free XP, but it would over-complicate the situation if I were to explain it to someone who never played WoWS.

So to keep things simple...

Base price for the Constellation is $280.
Base price for the Yamato is 20.600.000 credits and 959.600 Free XP

If you were completely dry on credits and XP (which is impossible because all ships during battles create credits and XP, so you'll always have some) - therefore this is the worst case scenario that never happens - the Yamato would cost you:

1 doubloon = 1500 in-game credits
1 XP + 1/25 doubloon = 1 Free XP

Therefore you need:

13.733 doubloons for in-game credits
959.600 XP and 38.384 doubloons to get 959.600 Free XP with which you can research it.

TOTAL: 52.117 doubloons and indeterminable amount of time to gather XPs (varies from person to person, how much you play, how well, etc.) which you convert to Free XP for doubloons.

In conclusion:
52.117 doubloons cost $195.
Therefore, the Yamato costs less real money than the Constellation, but takes a lot of time to gather enough XPs.

I sometimes used doubloons to skip grinding certain ships and even with that, it took me well over 3-4 months to get to Yamato.
Some of my friends who I play with, didn't want to spend money and are still grinding for Yamato. I bet it's been half a year they're working on it (not intensively, though).

So, if CIG decides to use similar money/grind ratio, I reckon you'd need at least 5-6 months to get to Constellation just by playing.

I know the comparison may by completely off and invalid, but there you go.


Sounds painful.
 
From the distance, but once you get a hang of it, you see how brilliant the milking mechanism is.
Don't think CIG isn't taking notes on this ;)

Planetside 2 was like that, mates spent such and such to OP their tanks but I couldn't justify the cost.
Spent most of my time as a sniper camping, did just fine.
 
Let's compare this to a game that I think has the best "milk the money from players" mechanisms of them all...the World of Warships.
Some of you may have played it, some may not, but I'll try to explain how it works so everyone understands.

You pick your nation of interest for the beginning.
Let's say you pick the Japanese.
All nations have 4 different classes of vessels, from smaller to bigger: destroyers, cruisers, battleships and carriers.
Japan has (arguably) the strongest battleship in game - the Yamato.
I've got it, but it was a long and painful process accompanied with a lot of (real world money) cost.

Why will I compare getting a Yamato to getting a Constellation? Because they both have price tags and they can both be earned without spending the real world money.
The trick with WoWS is, if you go that route, it's gonna cost you - time. If you wanna speed up that process then it's gonna cost you - money and time.

So to keep things simple...

Base price for the Constellation is $280.

WoWS in-game money is called "Doubloons" and for $280 you can get 75.000 doubloons.
WoWS in-game currency is called "Credits". You can convert doubloons into credits to buy stuff.
But, you can't just go and buy the Yamato with converted credits, because you need to have two additional in-game "currencies" called "XP" (experience) and "Free XP".

Base price for the Yamato is 20.600.000 credits and 959.600 Free XP

There's an important difference between the XP and Free XP, but it would over-complicate the situation if I were to explain it to someone who never played WoWS.

If you were completely dry on credits and XP (which is impossible because all ships during battles create credits and XP, so you'll always have some) - therefore this is the worst case scenario that never happens - the Yamato would cost you:

1 doubloon = 1500 in-game credits
1 XP + 1/25 doubloon = 1 Free XP

Therefore you need:

13.733 doubloons for in-game credits
959.600 XP and 38.384 doubloons to get 959.600 Free XP with which you can research it.

TOTAL: 52.117 doubloons and indeterminable amount of time to gather XPs (varies from person to person, how much you play, how well, etc.) which you convert to Free XP for doubloons.

In conclusion:
52.117 doubloons cost $195.
Therefore, the Yamato costs less real money than the Constellation, but takes a lot of time to gather enough XPs.

I sometimes used doubloons to skip grinding certain ships and even with that, it took me well over 3-4 months to get to Yamato.
Some of my friends who I play with, didn't want to spend money and are still grinding for Yamato. I bet it's been half a year they're working on it (not intensively, though).

So, if CIG decides to use similar money/grind ratio, I reckon you'd need at least 5-6 months to get to Constellation just by playing.

I know the comparison may by completely off and invalid, but there you go.

In some ways that's quite ingenious, one of the biggest complaints about P2W is that the payee has simply received something for zero effort, basically trivialising the effort a non-payee puts in, but in this example they also have to put time and effort in to get their reward. Quite clever.

As much as people don't like microtransactions I can make allowances for it with a game like World of Warships because it's free-to-play afterall, but if CIG do something similar while also charging a box price they start appearing as though grabby hands has a different meaning than the one they would like to impart. The fact that they're building the game on money freely given to them upfront only serves to make these types of practices even more distasteful.
 
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Here he goes again....

“To be honest if you have a billion planets no one can ever visit that many or see all of each planet,” says Roberts, CEO and founder of developer Cloud Imperium Games. “Even right here, we have got seven billion people on Earth and there are still a ton of areas you can go and not see another person for miles. What you need is two, three or four hundred planets with such a level of detail that you can visit places, explore and do all that stuff on, so that people could spend lifetimes moving around them.”

Why does he always feel the need to compare SC to other space games whilst making vague comparisons about the way they do things not being as good as SC? Why not just shut up and make the game Roberts?

“The way that works is that the artist can create biomes, which are templates for different areas. So you can have a template for woodland forests, or a temple for jungle, or grass land, or mountains and even within in those you can have several variations. Then you paint the big area, you basically say ‘this area is mountainous, this is woodland, and this is where the ocean is’, and then the procedural code takes that and uses that as a guide to place the biomes correctly and alter the height map. In two hours they can generate a planet and then they can spend time tweaking areas by hand.”

Well, there you have it.
 
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He wants to completley ignore the point that it is meant to be a simulation of the Milky Way first and foremost. Just like they want to call their setup a persistant "universe" while only containing 1 - 100 star systems.
 
In some ways that's quite ingenious, one of the biggest complaints about P2W is that the payee has simply received something for zero effort, basically trivialising the effort a non-payee puts in, but in this example they also have to put time and effort in to get their reward. Quite clever.

As much as people don't like microtransactions I can make allowances for it with a game like World of Warships because it's free-to-play afterall, but if CIG do something similar while also charging a box price they start appearing as though grabby hands has a different meaning than the one they would like to impart. The fact that they're building the game on money freely given to them upfront only serves to make these types of practices even more distasteful.


Good point :)
WoWS is free to play, paying is optional.
SC has a price to begin with and additional paying is optional, so yeah, grabby indeed.
 
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