The Star Citizen Thread v5
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Did you forget...Chris wants to build a UNIVERSE...
[video=youtube;ZJlJgNPzkhI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJlJgNPzkhI[/video]
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Agree with your points, however this will never quite be a Freelancer situation. If a game is to be delivered it is CIG that has to do it, a situation that kinda didn't happen with Roberts/Digital Anvil/Microsoft.
I'd bet money* that no publisher would be interested in buying out CIG if it all went wrong as it would be a black hole - it would mean $141m in pre-order cash spent by CIG, meaning years of work to complete the game without any new buyers guaranteed at the end of it. Plus, of course, with what Roberts has said in interviews I doubt that there's much goodwill in the industry towards him anyway.
* I am not a gambling man!
Interesting take, but I disagree as it seems that the main reason that the big fish are so, erm, "invested" is that it's Chris Roberts who can do no wrong: the scourge of publishers. I can't see them hanging round if he fire sales, which would be the same as his admitting the Derek Smart was right.
As for the IP? I really doubt that it's worth much on it's own. There are some nice environments, but the rest is a bunch of continually refactored ship and mocap assets, an outdated engine that's had major surgery done to it and sub-Heinleinian sci-fi tropes. Star Citizen as a franchise, at this point, has very little value to it as & of itself as far as I can see - little impact within gaming community as a whole, zero outside it, no "iconic" characters/locations/events, and a chunk of negative baggage associated*.
* This will be the case if the project crashed.
The thing that speaks again the Freelancer scenario is that at least Freelancer had some kind of connection with the original idea, and the company was taken over and redirected to complete some subset of that. I can't see that happening with CIG and SC.
No-one in their right mind will take over a company with $140M in liabilities, with all interested buyers most likely all sold out already, and thus with no clear way of recuperating the costs of actually finishing the thing. Doubly so since the most invested customers will see it as a betrayal of their ~~dreams~~ and won't put another penny into the project, meaning that any existing ideas for future monetisation are probably shot too.
e: Yeah, what he said ↑
No-one in their right mind will take over a company with $140M in liabilities, with all interested buyers most likely all sold out already, and thus with no clear way of recuperating the costs of actually finishing the thing. Doubly so since the most invested customers will see it as a betrayal of their ~~dreams~~ and won't put another penny into the project, meaning that any existing ideas for future monetisation are probably shot too.
e: Yeah, what he said ↑
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I really wonder where you take your confidence from? I would expect Chris Roberts to speak like that but hes the one who HAS TO make such speeches in order to keep the gravy train going. With all the red flags, delays, released content which is lacking and doesnt hold up to the promises I wonder where you take the belief from to take such a stand.....its pure belief by now isnt it? If anything the last 5 years have proven that fundamental planning and correct assessment of time and finances required was either non-existing or lacking but you still think they can do it?
I would say they know they cant do it, thats what I believe as well, thats why they are aiming for MVP and not the expanded, bigger, better game that was promised.
Very true but you miss something here (which was mentioned a few times as well before). These games had a steady progress to show over the years. They were not sitting on a tech-demo for 3 years then release a shabby alpha version which hasnt improved much since then. Also those millions were not crowdfunded but given by investors who in turn got insight about development and results when asking for them. Usually you WANT to show progression in order to keep the support and/or more money coming in. CiG is currently unable to show any proof that they are making progress. The 2.6 release doesnt really show that much improvement and overall is more of a downer (considered what was originally promised for 2.6). If you cant show anything that would generate hype or confirm your progress its better to play turtle and keep silent.
GTA5 or SWTOR were able to show a base after those years and had it going for some time already because these games did development the right way....which is start with the FUNDAMENT, not flashy assets but one of these look boring the other is exciting. I leave you to your own conclusion why CR opted to saddle the horse backwards. Its the same reason why they are now running into brickwalls and pretty much are forced to re-design everything they have (aka refactoring) in order to make it work.
The thing with Elite which by now has a similar budget to run of is that most of the questions and doubts surrounding SC dont even come into consideration when we talk about Elite....because Elite is a released and completed game which currently is expanded. THATS how you do it and what I woul expect from a game company to do. Its also why Elite is a success and SC currently is Vaporware (they have yet to show they can link all dismembered modules as promised and release a universe).
Given time there will be technical advances on the market which "might" make the expected result possible. But seriously......does this strike you as effective game development?
"hey, we are promising a game which is currently impossible to do but in a few years maybe CPU and Video card manufacturers release stuff that enables us to do our thing THEN?"
....cmon. Thats not "they can do it". Thats "they are waiting for a chance that somebody else is doing their work for them". I think your belief is misplaced but then....you are of course entitled to your opinion.
Also not the correct perception of the situation even tho all these folks make sure to start their post with a wall of text vowing their belief and support. Most of these backers turning their back do it because there is no or hardly any progress at all or they agree that with the current development status certain things in the past are discovered as lies and smoke screens further eroding their trust into the CEO who has a history of not being able to complete projects on his own. Its called "waking up" or "sniffing reality". Of course things like the discord-fiasco, overall customer service behaviour and cutting down on stuff upon release only add fuel to the fire.
Its easy to claim that these backers turning their back on the project are all impatient youngsters who have no clue about game development (I know, its not what you said but some reddit people see it that way) who want the complete game NOW when the only difference is the amount of kool-aid involved people ingest. The fact that CiG doesnt allow you to distance yourself partially from the game but makes it a "you are with us or against us" situation doesnt help. If I had 10K into the game and had doubts maybe I would also ask some tough questions to reassure myself OR opt to reduce my investment to get it on par with my confidence. But no.....CiG kicks you out completely and the rabid fanbase labels these guys "entitled special snowflakes" or "traitors".
Its a little more complex and many of these folks have actually good reasons to go for a refund. If you cared to read their reportings you might understand them.
Nobody knows, not even CiG (no release dates given shows a lack of confidence, features being cut down or completely removed, engine switch 5 years into the game, refactoring and iteration - nobody finds these terms worrying? - introduction of the "MVP").
Until the game is actually released and finished as promised....nobody knows if CiG can deliver. Certainly not you. You might decide that whatever CiG prays from above or shows as physical evidence is enough to deserve your support....but its not a garantuee for their capabilities.
A very good comment. So far we have no detailed roadmap about how stuff is supposed to work. Features are "mentioned" in general but theres no release of details about mechanics and technical foundations. Other games I am an alpha tester of are able to answer pretty much every question the community asks and actually bolsters confidence by doing so. With CR its a lot of handwaving and "uhm" "ahhhh" and the like. 5 Years in a successfull game SHOULD exactly know where its going. CiG seems to be on the look-out for solutions without having an idea how to solve these problems (does anybody know what these "blockers" are in development? thats what I actually mean....you are given "blockers" which doesnt tell you anything...same as everything else coming from CiG)
I can see this happening regarding the interest in the IP but whoever buys it wont pay a lot because the new developer pretty much has to scrap everything and start from zero beginning with an actual PLAN and a capable engine. I cant see any of the existing assets or code being of much worth. Anybody interested in purchasing the IP would pay for the playerbase really (aka cash cows).
I can see the advertisement line right now
(humorous, dont open if you are heavily invested or take offense quickly)"Selling highly trained and domesticated private users. Backers have high confidence, are well stocked in cash and dont hesitate to throw more money at the development of the game. Requires little to zero return of actual proof to keep going. Representing a closed loop as outside dissenters will be handled by the backers themselves. Occasional grooming in the form of an email suggested"
edit: getting rid of abyssmal typos /shame
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MTBFritz
Excellent wall of text i read it all
Rep+1
I do not believe that they can release good game, I guess at some point they will just slap something together and release as v1.0 MVP, but sure it depends on backers money flow if its good in 2017/2018 they can stay in Pre-Alfa for long time...
Excellent wall of text i read it all
Rep+1
I do not believe that they can release good game, I guess at some point they will just slap something together and release as v1.0 MVP, but sure it depends on backers money flow if its good in 2017/2018 they can stay in Pre-Alfa for long time...
But that's just the same argument, "Roberts could have made Freelancer right given enough time and money", but could he? Note that I'm not saying that some kind of FPS+space combat persistent multiplayer game itself is actually impossible, I'm specifically doubting CIG's ability (under Roberts' leadership) to make it, regardless of of how long they take.
It would be a good start if they actually had a clear idea of what they're trying to produce because, as Cmdr Eagleboy says, the current plans are so vague that no one would be able to produce the game because no one seems to know exactly what it is they're trying to make. Roberts is very good at responding to direct questions with lots of hand-waving, and by promising anything and everything that pops into his mind, apparently designing the game on the fly, but he's not so good at locking down specifics. That's compounded by being terrified of alienating backers by disabusing them of their many and varied (and often mutually exclusive) dreams of what SC will be, and thereby endangering the precious fundraising. Which is an additional pressure that he didn't have to deal with on Freelancer.
It took Microsoft stepping in and enforcing some direction and discipline on Freelancer before it became a project that was possible for them to deliver at all. There's really no reason to believe it would ever have coalesced into the game Roberts promised if he had been left to his own devices, no matter how long they had indulged him. More likely he would have ended up in the same position he's in with SC, amassing so much technical debt by way of his stream of consciousness "design" process that the work they've already done is in danger of becoming outdated before they're anywhere near ready to release a game, triggering an endless cycle of "refactoring" (using CIG's definition).
But even if there was a solid design document, and the rest of development was just a case of checking off a list of features, you have to look at 2.6 and wonder if they have it in them as a company to get it done.
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Well... That is a logical falacy. Actually, they CANNOT release something "better", "expanded", "Bigger" anymore. For that happen, they would need release everything that was promised on Kickstarter and in the stretch goals, plus, whatever "they decided to promise now".
And that's not possible anymore because they removed major features promised in the original Kickstarter already, like the coop feature of Squadron 42 and private servers, which despite not been presented as Stretch Goals, but as part of the original advertising of the game, the first feature was removed and the second was declared vaporware basically.
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Hey now, Heinlein was quite significant on the Sci-Fi scene, even though he did produce a lot of rubbish as well. Of course, taken at face value your sentence is 100% correct, Chris has nothing on Heinlein. It just reads like dissing the entire works of the author.
I wasn't dissing Heinlein, I'm a big fan of his work even though there's a lot of cheese mixed in (and Stranger In A Strange land is somewhat overrated).
I suppose that I could have written "sub-Hubbardian" but I haven't read enough of his dross to make a comparison.
EDIT: I'm also aware that Heinlein was the originator of some of those tropes, but that wasn't really my point!
EDIT 2: re SIASL - give me Philip K any day.
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Great summation over the last few pages.
I have for a while strongly believed that you could divide the blind faith believers and 'doubters' in the SC community neatly down the same line that divides those that believed Freelancer would have been all it was promised if only CR had been allowed to continue vs the realists who see there would have been no game at all.
I have for a while strongly believed that you could divide the blind faith believers and 'doubters' in the SC community neatly down the same line that divides those that believed Freelancer would have been all it was promised if only CR had been allowed to continue vs the realists who see there would have been no game at all.
I wasn't dissing Heinlein, I'm a big fan of his work even though there's a lot of cheese mixed in (and Stranger In A Strange land is somewhat overrated).
I suppose that I could have written "sub-Hubbardian" but I haven't read enough of his dross to make a comparison.
EDIT: I'm also aware that Heinlein was the originator of some of those tropes, but that wasn't really my point!
EDIT 2: re SIASL - give me Philip K any day.
What do you mean "enough". I read one of his books once, "Battlefield Earth", just to see if it was as bad as people were saying. They then made it into a film which was actually better than the book, although still dismally dire.
How about massively and bizarrely overrated pseudo-mystical garbage.
How about massively and bizarrely overrated pseudo-mystical garbage.
Haha, yep. Proto-hippy nonsense!
By "enough" I mean that I haven't read "any".
Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat
Banned
Star Citizen: The Game So Revolutionary And Anticipated That Folks Talk About Science Fiction Writers Instead Of The "Game" While Waiting For Any News About It's (Glacial) Development
Don't want the lulzbucket to get cold now...gotta keep it primed
Mind you, some of his original promises would have been pretty poor if they were actually implemented. My favourite part is where he wanted autopilot for flying your ship in combat:
"In the past, half of a space combat game's fun was maneuvering to get a shot at an enemy ship. For Freelancer, Roberts wants to take that part of the game out of players' hands, should they just want to concentrate on shooting at the enemy. There will therefore be pre-made maneuvers available at the top right of the screen. These buttons will allow players to put their ships on autopilot while they do the dirty work of blasting enemy ships to pieces." (Source: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/chris-roberts-back-in-the-game/1100-2452393/)
Good thing that actually didn't happen, did it?
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