The Thargoids are more violent then us (with proof)

[Star Wanderer]

Referring to Thargoid Queens, I assume. Not that I think this direction has much merit, anyway. "It's fine as long as you don't kill all of them" as an argument falls apart rather quickly, particularly considering how some totally do want to kill all of them, and the only thing preventing that isn't ethics but that we aren't technically capable of it. Our approach is to kill everything in sight, but we can't see into witchspace. If that's fine because we can't kill all the Thargoids, then the Thargoids currently restrained attacks on stations should also be totally fine, no? They aren't trying to wipe us out, after all.

Its the same argument i rased in one of Galnet post, where they wrote about losses in Hip 22460" widespread loss of life is still a sickening shock." - few thousands out of 6 Trillion can't be in any form or way be categorized like that.
Making massive fuss about one Mothership - is exactly like that. No xenocide, indisciminant killing, or mass murder. They blow up one ship that's it. It worked, the war ended, and noone got xenocided, cause they returned 150 years later, like nothing happen. No hard feelings, just the usual abduction, extorsion, and barnacle business.
How many megaships got destoryed in Hip 22460? Why aren't any calling this genocide? Cause it's silly.

 

[Star Wanderer]

First, you have to understand what sci-fi is, which this game is.
Second, having played mass effect would probably have helped..
Anyway:
Ynu're being too real and taking things too seriously..
This thread was basically a discussion when ppl could just participate but now you are challenging every comment and it's killed the thread.
Maybe just chill out a bit.

Exactly it's sci-fi and not fantasy. So Mycoid Virus launched in 3154 can't hit all Thargoids targets at once in order to categorize as xenocide. This is why viruses and other pandemics didn't wipe out Human population even when they were super deadly like Black Death in a time where medicine was almost none existant, compared to today. They simply don't work like that with the technological level such as Thargoid have.

 

[Magichp]

You should re-read about Mycoid, it will take you a few minutes, and spare tons of speculation in your post.
Why would a virus force us out of the Bubble? We would just create a vaccine. You do know there was a vaccine for Mycoid right?

Says the one who learned about mycoid virus 24 hours ago forum timestamp included ^^

Yes, my memory is fuzzy about it, just as I have said it, yet I have presented much more evidence than you have so far with precise arguments that you just refuse to acknowledge. That doesn't make those go away.

I didn't realize that it was so easy to make a vaccine for a "bio-engineered by a space-faring civilisation millions of years old with a technology we don't even recognize on sight" virus all the while fighting ships that require special equipment to even be damaged... I guess you should have taken lead of the anti xeno operations long ago ^^

I wonder why they didn't had that idea when we unleashed the virus that decimated their population, dumb aliens, right?

I made my points, quite a few of those, that you refuse to acknowledge and prefer to leave these as holes in the theory you are trying to defend.
Not the best move, but not my problem either

 

[Star Wanderer]

Says the one who learned about mycoid virus 24 hours ago forum timestamp included ^^

Yes, my memory is fuzzy about it, just as I have said it, yet I have presented much more evidence than you have so far with precise arguments that you just refuse to acknowledge. That doesn't make those go away.

I didn't realize that it was so easy to make a vaccine for a "bio-engineered by a space-faring civilisation millions of years old with a technology we don't even recognize on sight" virus all the while fighting ships that require special equipment to even be damaged... I guess you should have taken lead of the anti xeno operations long ago ^^

I wonder why they didn't had that idea when we unleashed the virus that decimated their population, dumb aliens, right?

I made my points, quite a few of those, that you refuse to acknowledge and prefer to leave these as holes in the theory you are trying to defend.
Not the best move, but not my problem either

Where did i said i never knew about a mycoid virus? In fact i already pointed out, my knowledge of it was much deeper than yours. None called Mycoid Virus a Doomsday one, like ever, and i made very strong arguments, that it wasn't even xenocide attempt, so my logical assumption was you were talking about Super Weapon. But you can keep trolling if that's all you can argument for.
"bio-engineered by a space-faring civilisation millions of years old with a technology we don't even recognize on sight" - and yet for a spacefaring race of less than 300 years, we became very skilled at destroying million years old technology - You give too much credits too them, clearly where they do not belong. I have questioned in another threat Thargoids ability to evolve, if they still consider millions of years old Technology from Guardians a threat.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Maybe look to see what a genocide is.
A mass extinction event is not a pre-requisite.

 

[Chaparral]

The Proteus wave Counterpulse affected all other active Thargoid surface sites (hundreds if not thousands of light years away).

Grelics were only possible after the Proteus second pulse.

I'm not convinced that the second pulse was of strictly Thargoid origin, and more convinced that Guardian AI fragments present in the Guardian tech at the Proteus site orchestrated / designed / created the second pulse (possible integrated with Thargoid animal intelligence at the site).

People keep thinking about the Thargoids as "intelligent". I see them more as responding to selection pressures like any population of hive organisms, not with rapid intellectual transformations (you don't see evolution of combat tactics for example), but with physical resistances.

All of this hand-wringing about "genocides". Invasive species, from microbes to plants to animals that outcompete local species always "genocide" those less well adapted competitors. It's not a moral issue - it's just the way things work in nature.

 

[Esteban]

No reports of any disabled Human ships beyond Hip 22460. Unless you saw any?

Wait. The second pulse had nothing to do with the range of the first, Salvation-weapon-initiated pulse. The second pulse cannot be used to determine whether Salvation's weapon could have had an effect beyond the system where it originated. Lack of disabled non-thargoid ships is not an indicator of the Proteus Wave's capability or its shortcomings. Deriving things this way isn't valid.
Clearly something unexpected happened after the Proteus Wave weapon failed to achieve the desired outcome against the Thargoids. A second pulse was not in the plans, nor was it the same as the first, human-designed pulse.

 

[Leadfoot]

I see people saying Thargoids never tried to communicate.

I hate getting into this hypothetical conversation this late in the day and his many pages back but I'll just bring up one point:

Not sure who said it, possibly Lord Brabus (please correct me if I'm wrong), but it was said that

"How we react to them will determine how the react to us." ​

If I remember correctly, remembering thargoids from the older game (which I never played but have heard lots about), thargoids were that "random thing" that popped you out of transit between one star an another to try and destroy you. No running away - it was fight or die. Period. Based on that experience previous players might have had I expect people were simply ready for a war for survival. Once the option to shoot was introduced into the game, it was used. Some just handed them some MA's and they took it and left. Others handed them laser and bullets. Well, we know how that went.

Of course, to play "devil's advocate," peaceful thargoids would have been a little boring, right?

 

[Charming Fawn]

It's kind of ironic, that in a thread aiming at painting the Thargoid as evil monsters, it's actually humans being insanely hostile even towards each other in a pretty normal conversation.

The Guardian obviously did bad things. Humanity obviously did bad things. Thargoid obviously did bad things. There is pretty much no moral standing where we could go ahead and pretend like we are better than any of the others.

Did Thargoid attack bases randomly? Maybe - But we have no proof for it to be random, as stupid as it sounds. But we have proof, that Thargoid actually target structures that are in connection to the people who attempted to wipe them out. We even used that fact to bait them into attacking certain spots (Just listen to the "Watching the Sky" logs).

Do Thargoid actually refuse to communicate with us? No. They do, with pretty lights and sounds, in a really primitive but easy to understand way. You know? Just like we humans try to do in order to warn future generations about radioactive waste for example. They even let you go if you follow their instructions. True monsters right?

Who shot first? Nobody can say for sure. There are things pointing at the fact, that humanity may actually be the first aggressor, but it's also possible that Thargoid attacked humans first. But in the end, this does not matter at all, because Thargoid did not randomly attack everyone they saw. I've not been attacked by an interceptor out of nowhere after meeting a lot of them and most commanders have to say the same.

Maybe it's time to stop thinking in good/bad and acknowledge that there is a lot of shades in between. We tried to wipe them out twice now, the first attempt did not even trigger a response. The second attempt is running now and appears to have failed miserably, who knows what we created there.

 

[MrShinyTorterra]

And who translated that? A Human. Not we as Pilots, it was Ram Tah who told us about this.

Randomly? no no. All attacks were in some form or another related to Inra, Aegis, messing with their Stuff, or encroaching on their Space

SOME of us want to communicate. But we are only a few Pilots. The Big Three? They attacked. Funnily enough, thats what happened in the old Elite Lore too. We had the means to communicate...but we didnt want to. No one knows if this is stil canon though.

The new Thargoid-Scream has a "hello" hidden inside it. Maybe the current Thargoids are just automated Drones? I mean...where are the Pilots we hear so much about? The ones that gave Wicherly the Scar?

I'd say the Guardian stuff is accurate. Every game needs a lore and fdev made that one for the Guardians. I don't think everything they put out is lies.

 

[Rainbro]

Its the same argument i rased in one of Galnet post, where they wrote about losses in Hip 22460" widespread loss of life is still a sickening shock." - few thousands out of 6 Trillion can't be in any form or way be categorized like that.

If you are genuinely taking the approach that deaths don't matter so long as you don't fully wipe them out, and applying that to both human and Thargoid deaths, well at least you're being consistent even if I don't agree with that at all. I don't know, is that the point you're trying to make here? What's your view on the station attacks for example, given the Thargoids deliberately target their attacks to minimize death toll, typically in the low thousands or very low %'s of population? That's definitely not xenocide. Or how about the initial destruction of a handful of Federal military ships, which lead to an indiscriminate massacre operation in the Pleiades?

Or is this all down to the idea that genocide/xenocide must require the complete destruction of a species? That's what I used to think, it's probably a common misconception but it's not.

acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part

In other words, killing Thargoids just because they're Thargoids. No longer acting in proportionate self defence, just kill as many of them as you can. Which is what we've been doing since day 1. Mycoid just represented a step up in our abilities to do that, and the Proteus Wave was an attempt to increase our capabilities again, aiming to deliberately incite a large-scale conflict with the Thargoids and then destroy every ship in the system.

 

[Vandaahl]

If you run into a cricket, it does nothing, unless you have limbs of its kin on board. If you go to shinrarta for a new discovery scanner, you get blown up by the yolo crowd...

...so who were more violent again?

Tbf, the whole targoid story seem based on an idea dating back for the '60s, from previous century. Type 1 civilizations are not aggressive anymore, why would they?

 

[Star Wanderer]

Or is this all down to the idea that genocide/xenocide must require the complete destruction of a species? That's what I used to think, it's probably a common misconception but it's not.

It's in xenocide description: "... entire alien species". Can't be achieved if you don't know where they are. As you can see it's very simple.
A ship is just a ship, nothing more.

 

[Rainbro]

I'd say the Guardian stuff is accurate. Every game needs a lore and fdev made that one for the Guardians. I don't think everything they put out is lies.

I'd say the Guardian stuff is accurate. Every game needs a lore and fdev made that one for the Guardians. I don't think everything they put out is lies.

I also think it's more likely to be accurate than not. Frontier are typically much less subtle where outright fabrications and coverups are concerned.

However, the logs are also extremely vague. What they actually tell us is this:

• The Guardians expanded into Thargoid space
• Thargoids attacked (scale and targets unspecified)
• The Guardians made a "partial retreat" (presumably from Thargoid territory?) and were reluctant to take up arms.
• Communication was established, but the Thargoids continued attacking. (What the Guardians said is unknown)

This...isn't all that surprising. Over time the blanks have been filled in to paint a picture of the Thargoids as hyper-aggressive, but the actual conclusion from this is that they're hyper-territorial. They will not tolerate another spacefaring species in their territory - so if the Guardians only made a "partial" retreat, of course the Thargoids didn't listen. Would humans listen to honeyed words from the Thargoids about how they come in peace if the Thargoids were actively occupying half the bubble? I doubt it.

The other potential issue is the scale of the Thargoids aggression...which helpfully isn't mentioned, leaving many to infer it was ceaseless and indiscriminate. But this is baseless and also completely conflicts with what we can actually see for ourselves. The Thargoids are restrained, inclined to act in self defence of their territory but still going out of their way to minimize the death toll.

Even if we assume the absolute worst of the Guardian-Thargoid conflict, that still does not override what we see today. That there are differences in the Guardian account to what we see, millions of years later, has been highlighted on GalNet.

“We now know that the purpose of the Thargoids’ ongoing military offensive is to remove humanity from what they consider their territory. If the Thargoids adopt the same modus operandi as with the Guardians, their next move will be to start aggressively mining mineral resources. There is no evidence this has yet begun, however.”

It still hasn't begun. They are acting differently. Who is to say that the Thargoids we have encountered are the same as those the Guardians encounter, millions of years ago and thousands of light years away?

 

[Rainbro]

It's in xenocide description: "... entire alien species". Can't be achieved if you don't know where they are. As you can see it's very simple.

Xenocide in this context is not a real word, given that we in 2022 are yet to encounter alien life. I take it you're looking at Wikitonary, but you'll note that the only real life examples are:
1) Killing of a stranger or foreigner (not relevant)
2) The intentional killing of an entire foreign (plant or animal) species. (listed as coloquial to the US, so not a universally agreed definition and one that also doesn't include actual aliens)

And then finally the Science Fiction entry:
3) The genocide of an entire alien species.

But here's the thing. That science-fiction entry is also not a universally agreed definition. It quotes Children of the Mind as its source (oh hey, American author), but Frontier do not appear to care overly much about that novel. In the context of fiction, the author gets to decide the definition of new words or words in new contexts.

Frontier have published numerous GalNets referring to the Proteus Wave as attempted xenocide. They have also published numerous GalNets referring to the Proteus Wave not wiping out the entire species, including that same one. They seem to be going for a more literal definition - ie, genocide but with aliens. And genocide has the "in whole or part" qualifier, so it's up to the author if they also want to change that and make it a requirement to be "in whole". Frontier haven't.

And finally - this is all pedantry. So what if Frontier are using one definition and you're using another? I've tried asking multiple times what your actual point here is but am still in the dark. Does ethics only begin at the point where complete eradication of a species is possible?

A ship is just a ship, nothing more.

You can't simulatenously claim that motherships are "just a ship" and also understand that the destruction of said ship caused the Thargoids to retreat. There is obviously some distinction between a Thargoid mothership and, say, a Cobra? It would be better compared to the destruction of a heavily populated planet - and the knowledge that the enemy can and will do it again and you are almost helpless to prevent it other than by running.

 

[Star Wanderer]

And finally - this is all pedantry. So what if Frontier are using one definition and you're using another? I've tried asking multiple times what your actual point here is but am still in the dark. Does ethics only begin at the point where complete eradication of a species is possible?

If we were flying around our galaxy, exterminating whole planets with Thargoids on them - i would be worried for sure.
But what we have in the game is a simple War between 2 species that can't or don't want to talk to each other. Its a fun space adventure.
Why turn this in to something horrible like genocide or xenocide? Why kill the fun? Especially when it is not true, as i argumented multiply times in this threat.

 

[Rainbro]

If we were flying around our galaxy, exterminating whole planets with Thargoids on them - i would be worried for sure.
But what we have in the game is a simple War between 2 species that can't or don't want to talk to each other. Its a fun space adventure.
Why turn this in to something horrible like genocide or xenocide? Why kill the fun? Especially when it is not true, as i argumented multiply times in this threat.

I mean, this is the story Frontier are telling. It's not a tale of good humans and bad bugs. If you aren't interested in that, that's fine.

 

[Charming Fawn]

Haha, i guess this is your first time facing War propaganda in real life. This is amazing, you actually believe in it, aren't you? Well done for people writing behind Galnet.

I don't know how to tell you that, but you're the one that fell for the Salvation "propaganda" and screams that "Humans don't do anything wrong" stuff around while ignoring every valid counter argument.

We attempted to wipe out the Thargoid twice now. Once with a fungus that kills them (indiscriminately) in an insanely cruel way that spread so far and wide that remnants of it can be found at pretty much every Thargoid POI. Now with a device that was seemingly set up to spread around every Thargoid base to shut every Thargoid down - once again indiscriminately.

They so far never answered in a similarly brutal way - Meanwhile you sit there and try to pretend like we did not do something that bad.

 

[Star Wanderer]

The cool thing about Elite, though, is that you can hop in a spaceship and see for yourself what is propaganda and what is not. Also, bold claim to say that the propaganda on GalNet is pro-Thargoid. We've had years of articles about how it's vital that humanity invade Thargoid territory to secure access to meta alloys, but the odd paragraph in recent months saying "hey, maybe invading their territory is a bad idea?" and all of a sudden that's too much?

Also, you guess wrongly. If there is a particular piece of purported propaganda you'd like to discuss, feel free.

Alright - show me the bodies of dead thargoids. Go on, jump on a space ship and prove your claim. I pretty sure every in here would like to see this.

 

[Charming Fawn]

Alright - show me the bodies of dead thargoids. Go on, jump on a space ship and prove your claim. I pretty sure every in here would like to see this.

Crashed Thargoid Ship

A Crashed Thargoid Ship consists of an ancient Thargoid Interceptor or Scout shipwreck on a planet's surface. The first wreckage site, a Thargoid Interceptor, was discovered in the Pleiades Sector AB-W b2-4 system on August 30, 3302, while the first crashed Thargoid Scout was discovered in HIP...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

Thargoid Surface Site

A Thargoid Surface Site,[1] also designated an Unknown Structure Scan, is a sprawling, seemingly ruined Thargoid structure found on planetary surfaces. The first site was discovered on June 26, 3303 on planet B 1 C of the HIP 19026 system, and over 200 other sites have since been confirmed. They...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

You'll even find the remains of https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Mycoid at many of them, apart from the Proteus Wave victims obviously.