Timed Scenario based on realtime are not ok design

[Woprok]

I like scenarios and challenge they offer, so I was looking forward for new scenarios in 1.3 patch. But as I played through both of them on hard I realized fatal flaw of timed scenario in games like planet zoo and why they just suck and are frustrating. In the end I was able to finish dlcs one after several attempts and patch one on first try, by selling staff facilities to get rid of loans. I will most likely not play them again as the experience was nothing I would want to experience again.

• Time limits forces you to use default prefabs and place it fast, there's no time to use one of main pillars of planet zoo - building from pieces
  • only way to use it is to create blueprints and paste them, but they have to be cost effective.
• There's no choice, game has to run continuously or you will have hard time to achieve objectives such as yearly income or five start animal (unless you luckily buy one)
  • how I hate yearly income, due to fact that whole game year has to pass, which is pain when time is limiting you and your pc
• Due to game running continuously:
  • it's optimal to take loans to make it in time constraints, cheapening the challenge;
  • creating habitats with multiple animals (herbivore dominance) is preferable to reduce time spent on;
  • it's not for average player, it requires better players with higher APM and good knowledge of mechanics;
    • let's name it so you get idea what you have to do if you don't use blueprints, and even if you use you save only time spent on creating habitats:
      1. create plan, most likely fist launching scenario several times to get complete list of animals in it and then mixing available animals to habitats to fulfil objectives
      2. create habitat / place exhibit
      3. buy animals, move animals
      4. complete habitat
      5. hire staffs
      6. place staff buildings
      7. set up workzones
      8. upgrade staffs
      9. place donation items
      10. place education items and set them up
      11. place shops, atms, benches and bins
      12. deal with annoying path creation and uneven terrain
      13. solve issues with animal welfare to keep it above XX%, like placing more enrichments items, getting rid of unexpected overcrowding
      14. manage other: ticket price, shop prices...
      15. do other absurdities that will just be somewhere in corner, completely ignored like rides
    • all this under time limit, with unresponsive UI and lags due to large amount of guests frying your CPU
  • better hardware == more ingame years will pass == easier challenge
    • just don't do it on potato PC's, 5 year old gaming laptop made it clear to me that it's pain to do it with 5 fps, when I was forced to edit area where guests accumulated.
• Time limits are lazy design, we can do better!

I would prefer if timed scenarios would not return in future in their current form. They are stressful not challenging.

My suggestion for future timed scenarios to make them more challenging without imposing real time restrictions:

• Loans should disable getting gold reward.
  • Finally there will be real challenge and not just abusement of taking loans to ramp up everything as fast as possible.
• Real-World Time Limit replaced with number of ingame years that can pass to achieve gold, silver, bronze reward.
  • This will make it more about strategy and smart planning, which is definitely more entertaining challenge then speed clicking.
• Carnivores being required would improve challenge as they are much harder to keep.
• Easily achievable research objective should be present to make use of research game mechanic.

My other wishes:

• Can we please have larger drop down lists in filter? - scrolling everywhere is awful
• Can we please have list of all available animals in scenario somewhere in game listed, so we don't have to refresh and hunt animals appearances in trading?

Thank you for great game, let's make it better

 

[Casperite]

Taking loans to ramp up quickly is not an abuse, it is exactly the purpose of loans. I personally do not like time based challenges in most games and same goes for these, but I do not agree with your post overall. Most of your complaints are exactly what make the times mode challenging.

I would love for them to create some really interesting challenges, not just for scenarios but franchise mode as well.

 

[Casperite]

And to your complaint about not having time or funds to build piece by piece, that is not the purpose of these challenges at all. You have 4 other modes for building. These timed ones are for time challenge only. But if you really like the map you can still use it in sandbox and challenge mode for building like you want.

 

[Nioell]

Different players different preferences I guess, because I really like them and had lots of fun racing against the clock to complete it on gold level. I think it really is a challenge for the exact same things you said you didn't like. Now we finally have a mode that really puts your skills to a test and again it's not right...sorry, it's just all the time I see people complaining that the game is too easy even on hard mode, now they added something you can't just leave running while you leave to get something to eat or whatever and again people start complaining because it's too hard this time.

We've plenty of modes to choose from and if this one isn't for you and you'd rather spend hours building pretty stuff instead of setting up an efficient working zoo as fast as you can then maybe play another one. Btw, you need to get rid of all loans to get the gold star at least on the Estonia map and using ingame years would render the timer pretty much useless since you could simply pause the game, set everything up and then unpause when adding the animals, not much of a challenge left then.

 

[Woprok]

Btw, you need to get rid of all loans to get the gold star at least on the Estonia map and using ingame years would render the timer pretty much useless since you could simply pause the game, set everything up and then unpause when adding the animals, not much of a challenge left then.

Yes, I know that you need to get rid of it, I golded both of them on hard, but you will circumvent loans by selling unnecessary buildings to get gold reward.

Problem I want to point out with real time based is that it's dependant on your PC, if you play on potato bigger than me (I-4720HQ, GTX 950M, 12gb ram), you are going to suffer to get enough in game years to pass to succeed on hard gold objectives such as yearly profit. Worse hardware makes it pain to edit area with high amount of guests and animals.
On realtime you are limited more by your computer, then by your abilities and managing in long run. Literally my high-end computer would be able to pass few more years in the same time. It would make Australia one, much less painful to finish. And in Estonia run I would just payout loans from income. (My runs ended Estonia 30-OCTOBER-YEAR-7, Australia 1-OCT-YEAR-11).

Ingame year could be much harsher than real-time limit, that would severely limit your income and possibilities to get all long term objectives done. Then there is nothing preventing them to make it harder by adding more complicated objectives.

Realtime just doesn't test skill as much as precisely crafted objectives would, unless part of skill should be high-end pc so you can bypass performance issues.

 

[Woprok]

Let's just not pretend that game is super difficult, both on release and now with hard difficulty it's still not really hard to manage it. Hardest it was, when guest's kept refunding all the time. Anyone who understands game mechanic and is used to playing simulations/tycoons, strategy games will make it. Most of the time you just fight terrible keepers to keep animal welfare high and amount of shops to maximize profit from guests.

 

[ShadowLilly]

• There's no choice, game has to run continuously or you will have hard time to achieve objectives such as yearly income or five start animal (unless you luckily buy one)
• Time limits are lazy design, we can do better!

But that makes it fun and challenging! Otherwise it would not be a 'timed'scenario. But I love this, since all other parts of the game are just way to simple, and this is a very nice and new challenge!

I would prefer if timed scenarios would not return in future in their current form. They are stressful not challenging.

I hope they would make way more, or other more challenging things for this game

My suggestion for future timed scenarios to make them more challenging without imposing real time restrictions:

• Real-World Time Limit replaced with number of ingame years that can pass to achieve gold, silver, bronze reward

This is also a possibility.. maybe they can make a toggle, so players can choose..?

My other wishes:

• Can we please have larger drop down lists in filter? - scrolling everywhere is awful
• Can we please have list of all available animals in scenario somewhere in game listed, so we don't have to refresh and hunt animals appearances in trading?

Yes please! this would be very handy, but I would also like to ad that the windows won't close when you e.g. open the zoopedia or send to trade/release and animal (and thus all your filters are reset)

 

[Jeminyne]

I like the general idea of timed scenarios, but I agree these ones are too hard. I have't been able to beat silver rank on either of them, even on easy mode. Here's a tip though: You can pause the timed scenarios by clicking the menu button in the top right corner. This is a lifer saver if you need to use the bathroom or something.

 

[LN]

With other words, the game is too difficult now?

 

[Nioell]

Yes, I know that you need to get rid of it, I golded both of them on hard, but you will circumvent loans by selling unnecessary buildings to get gold reward.

Problem I want to point out with real time based is that it's dependant on your PC, if you play on potato bigger than me (I-4720HQ, GTX 950M, 12gb ram), you are going to suffer to get enough in game years to pass to succeed on hard gold objectives such as yearly profit. Worse hardware makes it pain to edit area with high amount of guests and animals.
On realtime you are limited more by your computer, then by your abilities and managing in long run. Literally my high-end computer would be able to pass few more years in the same time. It would make Australia one, much less painful to finish. And in Estonia run I would just payout loans from income. (My runs ended Estonia 30-OCTOBER-YEAR-7, Australia 1-OCT-YEAR-11).

Ingame year could be much harsher than real-time limit, that would severely limit your income and possibilities to get all long term objectives done. Then there is nothing preventing them to make it harder by adding more complicated objectives.

Realtime just doesn't test skill as much as precisely crafted objectives would, unless part of skill should be high-end pc so you can bypass performance issues.

It's not the game's fault if you decide to play it on a laptop or PC that isn't cut out for it and if you notice problems with too crowded guests areas simply spread things out more and you won't have that problem anymore. And like I said earlier: in game years as a time limit can easily be worked around by building everything while on pause and then simply letting it run until you can pay the loans back, nothing challenging about that.

And as was already mentioned as well: if you think this game mode is too stressful for you and you don't like it you can always go somewhere else. There are four other modes to chose from and no-one says you HAVE to play and complete the timed scenarios.

With other words, the game is too difficult now?

Yep...like I said: first you read complaints everywhere that it is way too easy once you figure everything out (which is basically every game out there) and now that we have something that poses a real and different kind of challenge it is too hard...no matter what, people will complain instead of going to play the mode that actually suits them and their playstyle best.

 

[Jeminyne]

With other words, the game is too difficult now?

I think it's a tricky tightrope to walk, because PZ attempts to be many things at once: a nice relaxing building game where you can just decorate for hours, a management game, and a... breeding game, I guess you'd say? It nails it, as far as creative freedom and building goes.

But look at these management aspects: building good habitats, placing your new animals in habitats and seeing how they adjust (to see if you have to change anything), planning out your staff areas, paths, and habitat entrances, waiting for animals to grow into 5 star celebrities, keeping your staff efficient, breeding healthier animals with good genes, remembering everything your guests need, fixing things that break down... etc. They all have one thing in common: They take a while, they require thoughtfulness and care, and you'll often jump from one thing to the next-- it's all about multitasking. This can be an awesomely engrossing, addicting, and even meditative. Like all good simulation games, you just zone out and let the time pass. What keeps the multitasking from being overwhelming, is that you can pause the game and just think about things if you want.

But then, think about what that means for timed play.

In Roller Coaster Tycoon 1 and Zoo Tycoon 1, time limits were based on in-game time. ("finish these goals by year 2", etc.) But PZ has tried a completely new approach. I expect it'll take some trial and error if they hope to perfect it.

But maybe I'm biased because I SUCK at it so far, lol... even on easy mode, I can't even get silver. (For the first scenario, easy mode silver is 2 hours!) Each time I attempt it, I just think: "...god this is just stressful. Why am I even playing this?" But then... I keep going back and trying it again, so ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[FoxyDee]

I really like challenging things that takes time as you slowly build progress, however timed missions really stress me like nothing else in games. I am also that person that needs to complete everything, so I will battle through those I guess.

But for people that like timed challenge it is really nice I think. I still prefer career scenarios, but it is nice to have something different.

 

[shirandhak]

Even if it is dissapointing to some: Playing on "hard" or never play sandbox or playing timed scenarios for gold doesn't have anything to do with "skills", but only with exercise. Everybody can do it: you just have to practice, practice, practice. The more you play it, the faster you'll get.

But some people just enjoy other aspects of the game more...
And to my opinion Frontier got the mix of game modes totally right! Chapeau for that! After you got the basics, the game is fun to play for (nealy) every type of gamer and everybody can decide for themselves, which mode to play and where to have the most fun!

I don't play scenarios at all (because I don't like the toony look of the characters you will see in close-up and because I love taking my time and exploring on my own and of cause the creativity in building), but I'm not at all worried about that. I tried Challenge and Franchise and even the "Tutorial", and I found out, that I get the most fun out of Sandbox. Guess what I'm playing?

And now my conclusion: Please don't complain about the timed scenarios beeing too hard. They are just right for those players they are designed for. If you think they are no fun: just don't play them. There is so much more in PZ!

 

[Nioell]

Even if it is dissapointing to some: Playing on "hard" or never play sandbox or playing timed scenarios for gold doesn't have anything to do with "skills", but only with exercise. Everybody can do it: you just have to practice, practice, practice. The more you play it, the faster you'll get.

Pretty sure lots of playing and practicing is exactly how you learn those skills you need to build the zoos as fast and efficient as possible in those modes, so it very much has something to do with the player's skills in building, planning and managing

Totally agree with you, though, there are enough modes for everyone to chose from. One thing that could maybe make it even better is a scenario editor like we had in PC, then really everyone could create a scenario that is exactly what they want from the game.

 

[shirandhak]

One thing that could maybe make it even better is a scenario editor like we had in PC, then really everyone could create a scenario that is exactly what they want from the game.

That's a really great idea!

P.S.: Related to "skills": It's a question how you "define" skill. I say: It's just practice. And practice is something everyone can do (if they want it/have fun with it), whereas "skill" is something you are born with. But maybe that's a difference due to not being a native english speaker. So perhaps we both mean the same.
But (and thats quite important to me) please don't look down on people not being as "skilled" as you (erm.... not you, Nioell, but you = everybody ).

 

[Nioell]

That's a really great idea!

P.S.: Related to "skills": It's a question how you "define" skill. I say: It's just practice. And practice is something everyone can do (if they want it/have fun with it), whereas "skill" is something you are born with. But maybe that's a difference due to not being a native english speaker. So perhaps we both mean the same.
But (and thats quite important to me) please don't look down on people not being as "skilled" as you (erm.... not you, Nioell, but you = everybody ).

Yeah, it's the words I think...I'm German btw and we have the word "Fähigkeiten" (abilities) which is the base the you are born with and already have in you, and then there's "Fertigkeiten" (skills) which you can learn along the way and kinda depend on what abilities you already have. Though the word "skill" seems to be used for both terms in English as well...oh well, languages and words always so complicated lol

Whatever, totally agree about not looking down on people 'cause they have different skills and abilities, though, that's a big no.

 

[Onelegflamingo]

I liked the timed scenarios but I agree that the clock should not run when the game is paused. I spend 90% of my time sorting through menus and trying to get paths to go where I need them to go.

The scenario goals themselves are actually really easy. I would achieve gold first try if I could pause and build, but the time allotted should be reduced to compensate. Blueprints are mandatory in the Australia scenario, but it is impossible to use habitat blueprints because of the terrain modification restrictions. The land in the scenario is not flat. There is a lot of frustration and wasted time due simply to the inability to place things quickly. I didn't use loans and was never really low on money.

The Estonia scenario is more lenient, and doesn't require blueprints. I only failed gold in Estonia because of game breaking bugs (which is also why I failed gold in Australia, but even without the bugs, that scenario was much harder.) Again, the most difficult part was sorting through menus with any alacrity.

*I should add that when I tried to save blueprints of habitats I made in the scenarios themselves, they were "locked" and I couldn't place them in future play throughs, even though I did no research during the scenario. This is maybe a bug, I don't know.

 

[Nioell]

The scenario goals themselves are actually really easy. I would achieve gold first try if I could pause and build, but the time allotted should be reduced to compensate.

Pretty sure that's exactly why the timer doesn't stop ticking down when you pause the game, 'cause like I said before already, it'd make it way too easy to reach the goals. It'd also be kinda pointless to pause the timer only to reduce it when the game's unpaused again because then you might as well let the time run if you're gonna cut it short anyway.

*I should add that when I tried to save blueprints of habitats I made in the scenarios themselves, they were "locked" and I couldn't place them in future play throughs, even though I did no research during the scenario. This is maybe a bug, I don't know.

You might've answered your own question there: when you used any part in those habitat prints that need to be researched you won't be able to place it until you researched that theme completely to unlock the prints that include parts of that set. So when you didn't do any research during the scenario that's probably why you couldn't place the prints.

 

[Onelegflamingo]

But the items were already unlocked when the scenario started. They should all be available.

 

[Nioell]

But the items were already unlocked when the scenario started. They should all be available.

That doesn't matter for the blueprints. When you research a theme the first tier you unlock is the items and the next ones unlock the different prints. So when you only researched the first tier to get the pieces you can use them to build, but if you wanna be able to use the blueprints you created with them as well you have to continue researching the next levels.