Update 15, the Upcoming Feature Rework and More

[londonx]

There is truth to that. But you also have to admit, time after time FD promised to improve their communication. Then they did so for a limited time, to quickly return to minimal effort communication again. And i got the feeling that the "now we do good, let's see how long it lasts" is not just a thing for communication, but also for the whole company.

It very much reminds me on what a collegue got pinned to the wall: "Quality is not an act, it's a habbit." There is some truth to that.

A positive spin on that is that they feel that Odyssey is "back on tracks" ie aligned again with their original business plan, the initial scramble of improved communication was forced on them for damage limitation of a botched release of a major product. I guess what seems to be the big difference in opinion here is is the franchise fully back on track, back to the original New Era confidence or is there long term damage to the franchise where development is now linked to quarterly revenue results. My glass half full view is that well if they still doing big free content, "one of the biggest ever updates" and still plan the core feature overhaul especially they even bother to contemplate it in 2024 then perhaps the New Era light still shines bright and its just the timetables that have gone wobbly, with their healthy cash levels then delays and timetable push does not matter so much.

I'm not condoning the overall corporate communication strategy (it certainly isn't specific to ED), I for one would love to hear more about lower level stuff like development of the Cobra engine e.g. AA, multi-threading, DX version etc but I guess its their core IP and could be damaging to reveal weaknesses, or say more headline feature long term vision e.g. we will attempt to cover access to x planet types or even a vague we plan to release X PDLCs over the next 6 years.

 

[Jack Winter]

Personally I don't mind the communication bit all that much, as plans do change, new features might turn out to be impractical, there might be delays, etc. What really gets my goat is the bug fixing and almost complete silence on the subject.

My half full glass point of view is that at least they are really trying to improve and sell Odyssey, they even have new ED swag in their store, frequent sales, etc. To me it appears that they are trying to make it a success after the botched launch. I hope that they are successful and that we get a lot more content for a long time to come.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

There is truth to that. But you also have to admit, time after time FD promised to improve their communication. Then they did so for a limited time, to quickly return to minimal effort communication again.

This I'd disagree with. The rate of new threads in this news forum has been higher than it's ever been - five this week alone, which is more than we got in the so-called "good communication" times, we've been getting weekly progress updates on the (slowly stretching) schedule for U15, there's been some detailed threads giving more information about particular issues and when they'll be fixed / why they won't, they've had the devs in to talk details on the livestreams too, in terms of communication in the other direction they've specifically asked for feedback twice recently on aspects of U14.

There's no shortage of them communicating here. What parts of the times you think they had improved communication don't you think they're doing now?

(As above, I agree that there have been times that their communication has been better received by the community because the content has been good news. But that's not anything which more quantity or quality of communication can solve at a time like this)

 

[Sylow]

This I'd disagree with. The rate of new threads in this news forum has been higher than it's ever been - five this week alone, which is more than we got in the so-called "good communication" times, we've been getting weekly progress updates on the (slowly stretching) schedule for U15, there's been some detailed threads giving more information about particular issues and when they'll be fixed / why they won't, they've had the devs in to talk details on the livestreams too, in terms of communication in the other direction they've specifically asked for feedback twice recently on aspects of U14.

There's no shortage of them communicating here. What parts of the times you think they had improved communication don't you think they're doing now?

(As above, I agree that there have been times that their communication has been better received by the community because the content has been good news. But that's not anything which more quantity or quality of communication can solve at a time like this)

Hmm, if you go by pure count, then you are right, i give you that. But i feel like the value of information we get is quite low.

To explain what i mean: in old times, we got info directly from the developers, more open and raw. It also was not all good news at that time, but we got it. And the community accepted it, both the good and the bad. By now, everything feels like it went through the PR filter. And not just once, it's cycled through it several times. [1]

So indeed, we do get many postings a week, more than even in the "golden" old times. But when not just counting their pure numbers, but looking at the density and quality of information we get, i just feel that mere numbers are not cutting it. Of course, that's my personal impression. Others may feel like they get well informed by what we get now, but for me it feels like anything we get went through so many filters that i just don't see much value that stuff any more.

Which indeed also means that my "minimum effort communication" was badly worded. I guess the effort of all that filtering actually is higher than just giving us things straight. I guess "minimum content communication" would fit better.




[1] While writing that, i feel very much reminded at a place i did a practical semester. After the semester, i had to write a report on what i did and about the company. The passage where i described how the internal communication and coordination worked, or rather was badly broken i had to rework many times. My report went up several levels there, before they would sign off that it is of the company and is valid for my practical semester. And each level the guy responsible called me to his office, told me that what i wrote there was true but my wording was too harsh and i should soften it before he would give it to the level above. And i just feel like a lot of what we get here from FD is just the same: it went past so many people of "you can't say that, eliminate this information and that one, then pass it on", till any actually significant information is replaced by PR talk.

 

[Globusdiablo]

​

...Live Mode as the Default Download
In addition to the above, we will be making the Live version of Elite the default download. This will encourage new players to try the main version of Elite with access to future updates while keeping Legacy as an optional alternative. Implementing this change will cause an update to appear for all Steam users, and Legacy players will need to re-download that version to continue playing, existing Live players will not require an update. This will have no effect on your save files, so if Legacy is your preferred mode, you can continue playing normally once it is re-downloaded....

Will Legacy commanders have to re-assign keybindings after the re-install?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Hmm, if you go by pure count, then you are right, i give you that. But i feel like the value of information we get is quite low.

That, I don't dispute, but I don't think is actually a communication problem. (I do agree some of their comms style - though not in this post - has gone through a Management Obfuscatortron, but that's a symptom only)

If we assume that their comms can only give us information Frontier itself knows, and should only give us information they have good confidence in the accuracy of, I think the problem is that they just don't have a lot to say right now.

We'd like them to tell us more, definitely. But what that actually means isn't "we want better communication" but "we want you to have something interesting to say when you do communicate".

With updates reduced to 2-3 major ones per year, substantial delays on things they'd hoped to have done by now, and considerably less budget than in the old days ... there's just not going to be that much to say. We can ask for "more communication" but what we actually want is "more Elite Dangerous".

 

[amigacooke]

We can ask for "more communication" but what we actually want is "more Elite Dangerous".

But as we're not getting what we want until May at the earliest, the only remaining fig leaf is communication

 

[Jack Winter]

Or just playing the game that we have today.

 

[EdzUp]

Or just playing the game that we have today.

But that is what they would expect us to do

 

[Logan Terrick]

I don't want more communication from Frontier. All of their communication is just inconsequential chatter that gives us no benefit at all. Why would anyone want more of that?

Unfortunately whenever Frontier say they are going to communicate more it just means we are going to get more hot air.

What I do actually want from them is more specific INFORMATION. I have dozens of questions that could all do with answering, the most recent one being what feature are they looking at reworking?

There are many, many more questions, going back years, that I doubt we will ever get an answer to from Frontier.

Questions like - is animal life on planets still planned for the game, as David Braben told us he wanted to have them in it? Is boarding other ships ever going to be a thing, as David Braben said he wanted it in the game? Is landing on planets with water still planned? Are planets with clouds still planned? Are the hand crafted planets of the SOL system still planned? Are any more ships planned for the game? The list goes on and on.

The biggest problem with the interaction between their community and Frontier is that when the community ask for more communication they are really asking for more new information, answers to the kind of questions I just pointed out. When Frontier hears the community asking for more communication they think it just means we want to hear them talking about the game more, telling us over and over what we already know, gushing over how great the game is and telling us how excited they are for things that they can't tell us about.

We know how great the game is, I wouldn't have been playing it for nearly ten years if it wasn't, and Frontiers 'excitement' at those secret things to come, inevitably and inescapably, always turn outs to be over stated.

Yes they add 'exciting' new features but they always manage to add them with a healthy sprinkling of 'disappointment'. Like we've added this great new thing but now you have to grind for another 16 thousand hours to get it, doing things that you don't really want to, over and over again.

 

[Florenus]

What I do actually want from them is more specific INFORMATION. I have dozens of questions that could all do with answering, the most recent one being what feature are they looking at reworking?

I can answer that for you: None.
At least none at the moment.
Read between the lines. Last year they added this vague "major feature rework", because otherwise their "roadmap" for the year seemed rather empty (I think it consisted of 2 patch fixing updates and narrative content - that proved to be Thargoid war update). Now they are telling you they will tell you at the end of the year what their "thoughts" about it and possible future plans are. This simply means nothing happened and they have no plans to even consider it until the end of the year. Right now they probably don't even know themselves what this would be if it were to happen. Team is probably so small that it can't manage more tasks right now.

Questions like - is animal life on planets still planned for the game, as David Braben told us he wanted to have them in it? Is boarding other ships ever going to be a thing, as David Braben said he wanted it in the game? Is landing on planets with water still planned? Are planets with clouds still planned? Are the hand crafted planets of the SOL system still planned? Are any more ships planned for the game? The list goes on and on.

If they don't give answers to your questions, it's because you would not like those answers. And saying some things aloud might be a nail in the coffin for them.
When you're not sure, you're not sure. You might even be hopeful. If they'll tell you no future DLC or any update requiring significant assets is planned right now, you might give up on the game and never buy more ARX.
You don't hear anything about anything serious being developed for Elite except for some code tweaking here and there. You hear about features being dropped, budget reduced. That's all you need to know, really. If something will change, I'm sure they'll let us know faster than you're able to type "The game is doomed".

 

[Logan Terrick]

I can answer that for you: None.
At least none at the moment.
Read between the lines. Last year they added this vague "major feature rework", because otherwise their "roadmap" for the year seemed rather empty (I think it consisted of 2 patch fixing updates and narrative content - that proved to be Thargoid war update). Now they are telling you they will tell you at the end of the year what their "thoughts" about it and possible future plans are. This simply means nothing happened and they have no plans to even consider it until the end of the year. Right now they probably don't even know themselves what this would be if it were to happen. Team is probably so small that it can't manage more tasks right now.

Well, none at the moment isn't the same as none. They have said they are looking at reworking a key feature. I'm just saying it would be nice to know what feature. I'm not asking them to say when they plan on having it done.

If they don't give answers to your questions, it's because you would not like those answers. And saying some things aloud might be a nail in the coffin for them.
When you're not sure, you're not sure. You might even be hopeful. If they'll tell you no future DLC or any update requiring significant assets is planned right now, you might give up on the game and never buy more ARX.
You don't hear anything about anything serious being developed for Elite except for some code tweaking here and there. You hear about features being dropped, budget reduced. That's all you need to know, really. If something will change, I'm sure they'll let us know faster than you're able to type "The game is doomed".

I presume that is the case too. Though ignoring the questions and trying to distract everyone with 'look how great the game is' and 'we have loads of great secret things coming' is just condescending, annoying and frustrating to the community. If that is the case then they would be better off just keeping completely silent.

If I haven't given up on the game after all the stress, anger, frustration and disappointment that Frontier have dished out over the years then I'm never going to!

 

[Florenus]

Well, none at the moment isn't the same as none. They have said they are looking at reworking a key feature. I'm just saying it would be nice to know what feature. I'm not asking them to say when they plan on having it done.

I'm seriously convinced they don't know right now. I think this was just a vague idea year ago, when they wrote it on the roadmap and they haven't thought about it since - that's why they said they will share results of their "investigation" in another half a year (or more). So none right now, because maybe they will make something up in the future, if they will need to boost interest in the community. Or forget about it again. And it's easier to forget when nobody knows what you were supposed to be working on.

 

[Logan Terrick]

I'm seriously convinced they don't know right now. I think this was just a vague idea year ago, when they wrote it on the roadmap and they haven't thought about it since - that's why they said they will share results of their "investigation" in another half a year (or more). So none right now, because maybe they will make something up in the future, if they will need to boost interest in the community. Or forget about it again. And it's easier to forget when nobody knows what you were supposed to be working on.

That does seem to be the most logical conclusion. If true it's extremely unfair that they are treating their community with such disrespect when so many of us love the game so much. Though, from my own experiences dealing with Frontier, they are certainly capable of that level of disrespect.

 

[Riverside]

We'd like them to tell us more, definitely. But what that actually means isn't "we want better communication" but "we want you to have something interesting to say when you do communicate".

This conversation is getting very meta.

 

[Tikanderoga]

I can answer that for you: None.
At least none at the moment.
Read between the lines. Last year they added this vague "major feature rework", because otherwise their "roadmap" for the year seemed rather empty (I think it consisted of 2 patch fixing updates and narrative content - that proved to be Thargoid war update). Now they are telling you they will tell you at the end of the year what their "thoughts" about it and possible future plans are. This simply means nothing happened and they have no plans to even consider it until the end of the year. Right now they probably don't even know themselves what this would be if it were to happen. Team is probably so small that it can't manage more tasks right now.

Or they are not sure which one of the key feature they will be overhauling.
Probably juggling of what is "reworkable" with the amount devs left vs what could be considered a key feature that can be overhauled doing minimum effort.

If they don't give answers to your questions, it's because you would not like those answers. And saying some things aloud might be a nail in the coffin for them.
When you're not sure, you're not sure. You might even be hopeful. If they'll tell you no future DLC or any update requiring significant assets is planned right now, you might give up on the game and never buy more ARX.
You don't hear anything about anything serious being developed for Elite except for some code tweaking here and there. You hear about features being dropped, budget reduced. That's all you need to know, really. If something will change, I'm sure they'll let us know faster than you're able to type "The game is doomed".

I'm not saying it's doomed, but I think they game has been put on minimal life support and let's see how much Arx we can squeeze out of this until the final day we pull the plug.

I know they haven't announced anything big or new, but how do you instill hope and motivation into your players, to see the game in a better light when you say nothing at all?
Going by the track record and their shown efforts, they don't seem to have anything.
And their only saving grace a few years back after Horizons was the roadmap leak and the accidental video upload.
Unfortunately for them, that put massive pressure on the devs, because now the playerbase was expecting results. Pushing an unfinished product out the door because financial results matter more than quality has definitely shown what that does to your reputation, trust in you as a game developer and to your playerbase. And the fallout from that still hasn't settled until about a year later. Delaying EDO for a year with a beta server for players to test and provide feedback would have gone a long way.

Compare it to Blizzard for example. Every patch is put on a test server, community gets to have a go, see what it does, what is new, and there are patch notes.
We get a placeholder for patch notes until it's gets published.

 

[RedivivusCrowd]

Are Fdev finally going to integrate odyssey content and locations into the narrative? So far there has been practically no interaction between odyssey content and the Thargoid war.

I can walk around Settlements and see Thargoids buzzing around above and fighting NPCs but that's about the height of it.

Stations in Thargoid attacked or threatened systems simply close down their concourses.

God forbid Fdev actually invest some time and effort into implementing new interiors or NPC dialogue to reflect the dire situation in the system.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Meh. I watched someone playing Spaceborne II, on Twitch. They got to a room where it said something like "the story ends here. There will be more content in future updates." The people in the chat said they had experienced the same frustration. One person can't provide enough content for a continuing game.

Perhaps. A lot of reviews on Steam, albeit a minority, are saying similar things about its potential longevity. And some of the gameplay is very janky; I watched someone doing a "village raid" and the defending NPCs were emerging more or less one at a time in straight lines before being picked off. The ghosts in Pac-Man demonstrated more strategic variety.

But it's a sterling effort for a lone developer and for the price of a couple of ARX packs I'm prepared to give it a punt. I'd sooner see someone try and fail at a project like this, than not have enough backing to be able to try properly in the first place.

I guess it's also down to the definition of content, or the need for new. If elements of the gameplay are adequately entertaining it might be enough to keep me casually engaged. I still fire up Hardwar from time to time and that hasn't had new content in 20 years. Although to be fair it does have a proper ending to its story.

When push comes to shove I'm just looking for something to entertain me in my increasingly limited gaming time. ED isn't really doing that any more, and while I will admit that's as much the result of my attitude towards FD's custodianship of the game as of the game itself, self-analysis doesn't help me to change reality. I don't feel engaged with ED like I once did, and half-baked eleventh-hour spin like this empty "Feature Rework" announcement is part of the reason why.

Perhaps I will feel equally jaded about Spacebourne 2 if I try it and it ultimately disappoints. But at least it will be for the right reasons.

 

[ariaxum]

You know, I have to write this one more lunch time comment based on what I've observed in this thread as it goes along.

Let's say I was a Ferrari dealer and a customer looking for a fancy new car walked into my store and ordered a Ferrari from me. I check the situation and tell the customer that you will receive your Ferrari in six months. Well, five months pass and I notice that after those six months, it will still take another three months to deliver the car, so a total of nine months. When this happens to someone who is not good at business, they go quiet, and decide to let a month go by without telling the customer. As this month will come to pass with 100% certainty, the day comes when said customer will come to his shop, full of happiness and excitement to be able drive away with his new car. Now, instead of handing over the car, an amateur tells the customer now that unfortunately the delivery of your car will be delayed by three months. That's right - the end result is an angry customer.

(Now, turning towards us, as customers): Someone who understands business understands that as soon as it becomes clear that the delivery will be delayed, it is worth communicating this to the customer immediately. So in this sense, Frontier was playing fair and by the book and has indeed communicated the delay.

(Then, turning towards Frontier, as company): No b.s. please. Even announcing "No more major updates to Elite" would be fine... if you still didn't publicly state that you have plans for long term support for the game. I mean, the business does what it does, which most of the time is to get the most money with the least amount of effort. And based on the messages you've given me so far, I can still advise my friends to start playing this game. But the question is, what do you think will happen if I take your word (despite every indication) and you end up pulling the rug out from under me? I will be worse off than if I decided not to trust your word right now and quit the game. If I'm honest, this is what bothers me the most.

So in practice, my advice is to be open and clear about your intentions and to provide to your customers "no b.s." answer about Elite Dangerous. This will ultimately make people trust the company in the long run. Don't get me wrong - I'm not about to leave, I still feel very good about the company and I see myself still playing Elite Dangerous in the future. But I believe that it is up to us customers to hold your business up to the standards you set for yourself. So if you have plans to e.g. discontinue Elite, or whatever the plan is, you need to say it! And most importantly - although I'm sure it wasn't the point of this communication (#15) at all - don't feed your customers b.s.

 

[Ian Skippy]

A positive spin on that is that they feel that Odyssey is "back on tracks" ie aligned again with their original business plan, the initial scramble of improved communication was forced on them for damage limitation of a botched release of a major product. I guess what seems to be the big difference in opinion here is is the franchise fully back on track, back to the original New Era confidence or is there long term damage to the franchise where development is now linked to quarterly revenue results. My glass half full view is that well if they still doing big free content, "one of the biggest ever updates" and still plan the core feature overhaul especially they even bother to contemplate it in 2024 then perhaps the New Era light still shines bright and its just the timetables that have gone wobbly, with their healthy cash levels then delays and timetable push does not matter so much.

I'm not condoning the overall corporate communication strategy (it certainly isn't specific to ED), I for one would love to hear more about lower level stuff like development of the Cobra engine e.g. AA, multi-threading, DX version etc but I guess its their core IP and could be damaging to reveal weaknesses, or say more headline feature long term vision e.g. we will attempt to cover access to x planet types or even a vague we plan to release X PDLCs over the next 6 years.

Given they made a U-turn during development of F1 Manager and switched to Unreal Engine, and given the still sub-par performance of EDO years after release, Cobra may be on the way out.