Update 15, the Upcoming Feature Rework and More

Its purpose really was to drive dynamism, because the other aspect which flew out the window was that powers had to expand, and if they did not after 3 cycles they'd be in danger.

Since none of this happened PP went into a slow decline where it became gardening, to the point today where (ironically) most PP action comes in the form of BGS attacks. So for me its logical to fold PP into the BGS and use its strengths, as you then have the bubble pulled by factions, powers and Goids. I would like superpowers to have some sort of bonus too (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...ignment-numbers-have-bgs-consequences.543240/)but currently....welll :(
I tried Powerplay, but it didn’t seem to make any difference whether I took part or not, so in the end it was not :)
 
Not all of us are as well researched or remember well enough to make this a significant advantage. That said more variety would be good after all there must be some law abiding NPCs flying Cobra 4s or Asp Scouts somewhere.
Bear in mind this is generally for the high end- at the other end nothing would really change bar running into the odd one or two.

For the high end to ever approach PvP levels you have to remove the certainty and use whats in game better (PP wise).
 
The problem with power play is that many people used it to get the superior weapons and shields and their only interaction was taking 750 of something from 1 station and dropping it off at the next nearest station .
A bit like BGS until you are "into" it it's something weird and magical .
 
Its purpose really was to drive dynamism, because the other aspect which flew out the window was that powers had to expand, and if they did not after 3 cycles they'd be in danger.
Yes - though at equilibrium it would be "you have to self-turmoil every four weeks to ensure you have enough space and CC for the next expansion", which would have been even more fun for 5C and incomprehensible for everyone else. One thing the Thargoid War definitely gets right is making it impossible to harm a side (either side! [1]) by taking nominally positive actions for them; at worst they have zero benefit.

For that sort of dynamism Powerplay probably should have focused on less important characters - second-tier Senators, minor CEOs, etc. - where there's two exit conditions:
- collapse if you fail to expand when already below a low system count threshold
- victory if you expand to some high threshold (100 control systems, maybe?)
Victorious characters get promoted to Tier 1 and become part of the main plot; their supporters get a one-time reward based on time pledged; that frees up a whole bunch of supporters and territory at once for everyone else to rush for and their replacement to get a decent starting position.

[1] If I was a Thargoid I'd be mildly irritated with whoever was preparing those Alert systems around Cocijo this cycle as there were far better choices, but it's not going to do any long-term harm to take them.
 
Yes, It's hard to believe they intended it to collapse and rise when they put all that art into the fixed set of characters. What were they going to do? Commission new characters every few months?
 
Well, it's not going to get smaller if they got 3D models just so they can make more pics. And it's not just the art, there's the fake bios, fake relations. If they had planned ahead and had decent procgen BGS Faction heads and those could have risen through the ranks (maybe with player support) of course that would have written itself (and actually be dynamic).
 
closing possibility to create new PMFs means there is not interest to let new players make theirs own "home" in ED? Is a fact that players still can adapt/support any of native MF as theirs own, but imo it definitelly is a quite big difference for player(s) in term of "owning" something.
New players can join to one of 10481049 squadrons, or support one of hundreds dead PMS, sitting in their homesystems at 1% :D
To be fair I like it, I'm sick of seeing systems with 3/4 player factions at 1 moment. Enough is enough.
 
Forcing people into open is not the answer. It will only result in less people playing the game.
It is.
Do you want to support your faction in systems with other player factions?
Deal with some resistance by 2 ways.
Grinding inf and bad evil gankers interrupting your trade missions.

To be fair I don't care about console players/solo/pg players because I cannot interact with them by any way. In open at least I can say hello, when I see random player on station
<and maybe try to recruit him, if I see, that he isnt in squadron :D >

Oh, and of course I agree with fact, that NPCs are to weak.
"elite" missions should be truly dangerous. Not sending pirates, which cannot kill even engineered t9 :ROFLMAO:
 
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Yes - though at equilibrium it would be "you have to self-turmoil every four weeks to ensure you have enough space and CC for the next expansion", which would have been even more fun for 5C and incomprehensible for everyone else. One thing the Thargoid War definitely gets right is making it impossible to harm a side (either side! [1]) by taking nominally positive actions for them; at worst they have zero benefit.

The idea was that Powers were incessantly attacking other powers and taking the bits that fell off. Self turmoil is really a symptom of Powerplays dysfunction without this happening.

5C would have remained a big problem as the design never really changed- saying that you could take several measures with the current design to eliminate 5C altogether if FD so wished. One big draw of a BGS based PP is that its 5C proof.....since factions and the BGS are hyper local one part (largely) does not affect another detrimentally.
 
That is not correct.
We saw fleet carrier interiors, the major anomaly in HIP 22460, the maelstroms, the orthrus, the caustic generators and new fog and lighting effects being added post-Odyssey.

Edit: ... and the Scorpion SRV.
Scorpion was created years before (ask Tom), wouldn't surprise me if the rest had as well.
Bet the Panther model is ready to go and has been for years.
 
Yes, It's hard to believe they intended it to collapse and rise when they put all that art into the fixed set of characters. What were they going to do? Commission new characters every few months?
I hardly think that one image each for the most powerful people in the galaxy is "all that art" - in fact I have always considered it risible.

Basically this 👇 There are years of Galnet Articles hinting the relations between prominent game figures. So it's way more than some mugshots

Well, it's not going to get smaller if they got 3D models just so they can make more pics. And it's not just the art, there's the fake bios, fake relations. If they had planned ahead and had decent procgen BGS Faction heads and those could have risen through the ranks (maybe with player support) of course that would have written itself (and actually be dynamic).
 
Scorpion was created years before (ask Tom), wouldn't surprise me if the rest had as well.
Bet the Panther model is ready to go and has been for years.

What would or wouldn't surprise you does not interest me in the slightest and does not add to the discussed matter in any way.
 
It is.
Do you want to support your faction in systems with other player factions?
Deal with some resistance by 2 ways.
Grinding inf and bad evil gankers interrupting your trade missions.
You can already support your faction in systems with other player factions in private or solo.

What if the players don’t want to deal with gankers/griefers? I don’t know a single BGS player that does want to deal with them.
 
It can be both. If Frontier end up deciding "no more updates" then the Thargoid War as-is will still carry on indefinitely (and on the current balance reach a stalemate position at roughly the current size) with the Thargoids making moves according to the current strategy. It won't be novel but it will provide a permanent semi-dynamic battlefront for people who like fighting Thargoids.

Equally, there are several updates Frontier might intend to make that couldn't be put in place for the start of U14 - the ability to repel Maelstroms and the Thargoids to add (or reposition) them has been hinted at in Galnet, for example - and it would likely be a more strategically interesting war with those updates.

On a more general point, one thing I've mentioned before is that systems where the only major non-deterministic input is players do tend towards fairly boring equilibrium if possible - people can generally assess the relative strengths and make sure they only start fights they can win, powerful groups tend to agree borders rather than start giant multi-system wars, while small groups get unceremoniously crushed. The major sources of excitement come when people deliberately do strategically unwise but entertaining things (with enough tactical strength for it to not get immediately stopped).

So even with a fully player-dynamic Thargoid+BGS+Powerplay+stuff integrated system for managing the galaxy, the likelihood is that players would collectively manage it into "let's keep something very like the status quo" (a relatively mild loss-aversion and prioritising of maintenance over expansion would do that) - Frontier will always need to be injecting adverse events to regularly shake things up even if the nature of those events is different to the pre-U13 "CGs and Incursions" play.
Okay, I'm going to do it, I'm going to mention that "other game" (cough X4 cough), not to derail this topic, but to enrich it. One of the things I love about X4 is that I still have moments where the literal thought, "What is the AI up to?" crosses my mind. As if the AI is actually thinking. It's obviously not, but it's using some sort of algorithm to position its fleets, select targets, and start battles at various times. It's good enough to still trick me into believing it has an actual strategy rather than just an elaborate decision tree, and that is incredibly immersive, even when I'm not engaging in the battle myself.

I'm not sure if the Thargoids are operating this way or not, but it sounds like you're pretty impressed with them. Unfortunately last I checked, Elite was still very "tinker toy" when it comes to the effects of things like war. I never got a sense of supply chain or other consequences to large scale wars taking place in the galaxy. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong), every system is its own self-contained bucket, and when CMDRs are trading, that can have a slightly noticeable effect on "supply chain", in that if lots of goods are moved from one system's bucket to another system's bucket, one bucket will fill a little and the other empty a little. Of course this is totally dependent on CMDRs (NPCs are just eye candy), and the effect is so small that it's not even noticeable except between small systems or during some huge localized event like a CG.

I actually think the bucket system is a decent enough system to simulate supply chain IF the buckets are realistic (how many cargo canisters can a station realistically hold based on volume), and IF the quantity in the buckets affect other buckets in a supply chain manner (a refinery only outputs metals when it receives ores), and IF there is a very rudimentary simulated NPC traffic (say "50 NPC T9s trade XYZ per hour) that is effected by things like war, piracy, and economy, which brings my last IF, which is that supply and demand had a more realistic effect on the economy.

This is a rework of a major feature that would really appeal to me. I'm not sure if the average CMDR would notice it, or if they would just keep looking up the best trades on EDDB and focus on making money. Though a proper economy should actually making finding good trades more of a hot potato - 100 T9s at Rubeo should empty out / fill the buy / sell stations pretty quickly (these stations are of fixed volume, after all). Add to this the Thargoid War, which should greatly disrupt certain supply lines, along with having other economic factors like price hikes due to general fear, and even the average CMDR should notice it.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. Yes, I'd love to see X4's realism (economy, supply chains, warfleet deployments, etc) cross-pollinate with Elite. I don't expect every NPC ship to be "real" like in X4, but adding a few buckets to the BGS like "x number of T9s trading between A and B" along with adjusting current buckets, coupled with the new Thargoid Strategic AI, could easily provide a similar realism to Elite at a much lower cost, processing and development-wise.
 
Okay, I'm going to do it, I'm going to mention that "other game" (cough X4 cough), not to derail this topic, but to enrich it. One of the things I love about X4 is that I still have moments where the literal thought, "What is the AI up to?" crosses my mind. As if the AI is actually thinking. It's obviously not, but it's using some sort of algorithm to position its fleets, select targets, and start battles at various times. It's good enough to still trick me into believing it has an actual strategy rather than just an elaborate decision tree, and that is incredibly immersive, even when I'm not engaging in the battle myself.

I'm not sure if the Thargoids are operating this way or not, but it sounds like you're pretty impressed with them. Unfortunately last I checked, Elite was still very "tinker toy" when it comes to the effects of things like war. I never got a sense of supply chain or other consequences to large scale wars taking place in the galaxy. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong), every system is its own self-contained bucket, and when CMDRs are trading, that can have a slightly noticeable effect on "supply chain", in that if lots of goods are moved from one system's bucket to another system's bucket, one bucket will fill a little and the other empty a little. Of course this is totally dependent on CMDRs (NPCs are just eye candy), and the effect is so small that it's not even noticeable except between small systems or during some huge localized event like a CG.

I actually think the bucket system is a decent enough system to simulate supply chain IF the buckets are realistic (how many cargo canisters can a station realistically hold based on volume), and IF the quantity in the buckets affect other buckets in a supply chain manner (a refinery only outputs metals when it receives ores), and IF there is a very rudimentary simulated NPC traffic (say "50 NPC T9s trade XYZ per hour) that is effected by things like war, piracy, and economy, which brings my last IF, which is that supply and demand had a more realistic effect on the economy.

This is a rework of a major feature that would really appeal to me. I'm not sure if the average CMDR would notice it, or if they would just keep looking up the best trades on EDDB and focus on making money. Though a proper economy should actually making finding good trades more of a hot potato - 100 T9s at Rubeo should empty out / fill the buy / sell stations pretty quickly (these stations are of fixed volume, after all). Add to this the Thargoid War, which should greatly disrupt certain supply lines, along with having other economic factors like price hikes due to general fear, and even the average CMDR should notice it.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. Yes, I'd love to see X4's realism (economy, supply chains, warfleet deployments, etc) cross-pollinate with Elite. I don't expect every NPC ship to be "real" like in X4, but adding a few buckets to the BGS like "x number of T9s trading between A and B" along with adjusting current buckets, coupled with the new Thargoid Strategic AI, could easily provide a similar realism to Elite at a much lower cost, processing and development-wise.

Pretty sure that following the retcon of the Thargoid civilization to something dumb and culturally stunted, they do not have any meaningful strategies and are not capable of surprising the playerbase in any way.

The devs kind of already told us, their entire war effort boils down to "path of least resistance", which places them at an IQ comparable to a locust swarm, or a swarm of zen Buddhists (little joke, don't hang me).
 
I'm not sure if the Thargoids are operating this way or not, but it sounds like you're pretty impressed with them.
I said that a lot of human players would be playing in a similar style, which isn't quite the same.

Unfortunately it's one of those things that might in the long-term (i.e. centuries, at one move per week) be the best strategy, in the short-term it's just not very interesting, and hasn't been updated to adapt to the budgeting changes it was given a couple of weeks ago.

and the effect is so small that it's not even noticeable except between small systems or during some huge localized event like a CG.
And on top of that, the bubble has 20,000 systems, taking out a system all else equal takes out both producers and consumers, and economy types are more-or-less homogenous in distribution ... so even if there was a detailed economic sim, the Thargoids would have to take a very substantial amount of the bubble before it had any noticeable effect on it.
 
Okay, I'm going to do it, I'm going to mention that "other game" (cough X4 cough), not to derail this topic, but to enrich it. One of the things I love about X4 is that I still have moments where the literal thought, "What is the AI up to?" crosses my mind. As if the AI is actually thinking. It's obviously not, but it's using some sort of algorithm to position its fleets, select targets, and start battles at various times. It's good enough to still trick me into believing it has an actual strategy rather than just an elaborate decision tree, and that is incredibly immersive, even when I'm not engaging in the battle myself.

I'm not sure if the Thargoids are operating this way or not, but it sounds like you're pretty impressed with them. Unfortunately last I checked, Elite was still very "tinker toy" when it comes to the effects of things like war. I never got a sense of supply chain or other consequences to large scale wars taking place in the galaxy. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong), every system is its own self-contained bucket, and when CMDRs are trading, that can have a slightly noticeable effect on "supply chain", in that if lots of goods are moved from one system's bucket to another system's bucket, one bucket will fill a little and the other empty a little. Of course this is totally dependent on CMDRs (NPCs are just eye candy), and the effect is so small that it's not even noticeable except between small systems or during some huge localized event like a CG.

I actually think the bucket system is a decent enough system to simulate supply chain IF the buckets are realistic (how many cargo canisters can a station realistically hold based on volume), and IF the quantity in the buckets affect other buckets in a supply chain manner (a refinery only outputs metals when it receives ores), and IF there is a very rudimentary simulated NPC traffic (say "50 NPC T9s trade XYZ per hour) that is effected by things like war, piracy, and economy, which brings my last IF, which is that supply and demand had a more realistic effect on the economy.

This is a rework of a major feature that would really appeal to me. I'm not sure if the average CMDR would notice it, or if they would just keep looking up the best trades on EDDB and focus on making money. Though a proper economy should actually making finding good trades more of a hot potato - 100 T9s at Rubeo should empty out / fill the buy / sell stations pretty quickly (these stations are of fixed volume, after all). Add to this the Thargoid War, which should greatly disrupt certain supply lines, along with having other economic factors like price hikes due to general fear, and even the average CMDR should notice it.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. Yes, I'd love to see X4's realism (economy, supply chains, warfleet deployments, etc) cross-pollinate with Elite. I don't expect every NPC ship to be "real" like in X4, but adding a few buckets to the BGS like "x number of T9s trading between A and B" along with adjusting current buckets, coupled with the new Thargoid Strategic AI, could easily provide a similar realism to Elite at a much lower cost, processing and development-wise.
I fully agree with you there. (y)

The economy of elite feels like a placeholder that hasn't been looked at (other than to make credits easier to obtain) since the game was released.

I'd really hoped that the economy was going to be the element that was reimagined & given additional depth however I think we're too far gone and too many players would get upset.

X4 is streets ahead in this area and feels like a combination of sim city, command & conquer and elite with depth and consequence.
Elite Dangerous is like r-type - a great fun blaster but vacuous.
 
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