[Video] Griefing : is there a problem?!

[Ziggy Stardust]

The grind is in your mind.

I don't want the hug, but I've seen plenty of posts where you act as if you know something about PvP, when it's clear you don't even know the third thing about escaping from a PvP engagement (the first two things being "go solo" and "go pg", which you clearly have a handle on).:

Let me guess ... but you can't be rrrsed to look for those "plenty of" posts.

Yeah, heard that one before. All talk, no substance.

I have seen you post bollox about imaginary posts. And look! Already found an example!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's also difficult to know the number of active DW2 participants. Most sources I see are tossing around the number signed up as if that was the same thing, and as if all will stay the course. Many probably didn't even start, and others will fall by the wayside as they confront the reality of hundreds of repetitive jumps. Certain parties have an interest in making the expedition seem as large as possible (and this seems fine to me, mostly).

No question however, there's many many more CMDRs on DW2 than DG2, and the point about predator/prey ratios a worthwhile one.

The one about parasite/host as well.

DG2 is a parasite leeching of DWE2. As gankers always do.

 

[Guest 161958]

Please, let's not restart the flaming. I always see the same forum members flaming on this matter. Let's solve the problems.

As in the video link in the OP, many have already pointed out that C&P here is the culprit. Help me send the message to FD that spending resources for a player driven C&P system should be a top priority to both enhance gameplay with new professions and meaningful pvp to prevent griefing.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/475061-Police-bounty-hunting-gameplay-enhancements

 

[Lazuras Poe]

Is griefing a problem?

Define griefing..

Its always a problem in any multiplayer environment. I think in ED, its only minor. We have modes to engage with that gives a player choice.

They are not perfect, but it is still a good system.

If players were targeting particular players over a period of time, infiltrating a private group, buying multiple accounts and targeting the same players or group of players.

Thats griefing. It needs to be consistent, uncalled for, abusive etc. Thats griefing.

In open? No. These things come and go when a bug or an exploit comes up and the same type of player jumps on it just to make peoples lives miserable for a short time and then FD attempts to fix it. Its rarely something that targets an individual player, unless said player keeps doing the same thing and ending up with the same rebuy screen. I usually just log off and go and do something else in that case or go solo. I have no problem with that. I do not do that if I'm engaged in something meaningful, like challenging pvp. But if its just somebody being a person of nutjobbery, then Im perfectly entitled to solo/pg away.

Players do have a choice. And while I agree that PGs should have some kind of pvp enable flag or similiar to lock that down for those players who wish to do so. And that C & P is woefully inadequate for actually making life difficult for 'criminals' (ex eve online player, knowing what a good system of consequences can be like), players do have a choice, if you dont want the 'seemingly 'randomness' of open.

I think it was inevitable that DW2 would attract pirates and outlaws. Of course it would. Unfortunately for some players, the limitations of a PG admin set up meant that many latecomers and new players were unable to get into the Fleetcom/Mobius private groups.

Sheeps to the slaughter. Hard lesson learned for Open play. But then I did have a long career in Eve Online. So meh if you played in Open.

Griefing a problem...?
No not really. Only the dedicated players will follow the DW fleet for any length of time and thats a fair go in my opinion. As long as they stay in Open and dont disrupt the PGs. Because thats just rude. There are plenty of explorers doing the hard yards in Open.
So good luck and good game to all.

On a side note, I blame some of the hardcore explorer types for encouraging/advising newer players or players not familiar with exploring long distance to build such paper thin ships, squeezing out every last ly. You only need 35 ly max for a good comfortable ride. Anything else is just OMG IVE GOT TO GET THERE FIRST!!! I mean we've had enough rebuy screens because of gravity ... deary me.

 

[Neutronium]

The problem is not griefing per se. It is the consequences for the griefed vs the griefer. When someone prepares for such an expedition in mind his ship will not be combat built oriented. They would have spent hundreds of real life hours to explo- engineer their ship to the maximum possible extend and someone comes and pops them and they are back in sqware root one.

Now of course the question is why would someone choose to explore in Open when there is dedicated DW2 group? If they choose open then they agree to take the risk of being ganged. It is THEIR CHOICE. PERIOD. No re-imbarsment whatsoever for that - case closed. There is no case actually. Frontier should not even bother to reply to reembarsment requests made from players in open regarding ganging.
Now for PGs there should be an option for the group creator in the game settings to designate the group PvE only. This would make all CMDR ships invulnerable to weapon firing and ramming from other cmdr ships ONLY. To implement this as a feature, some serious coding may be required but I think Frontier's 100+ ED staff should suffice for that.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Private Group should have a PvE flag. It won't do anything in game, but it will display a message when logging into the group, each and every time you log in.

"This is a PvE group. Engaging in PvP will have consequences for your account"

 

[Lori Jameson]

Now if only people would stop lumping us honest hard working pirates in with griefers! Good video as always Yamiks!

 

[mant3z]

Adult people + pixels = Galactic Monty Python
Are you really adult?
This is silly that Yamiks has to create a movie realizing you that it's about playing a sandbox game.

 

[Bigmaec]

You could have to buy the merits 1 at a time, instead of 10 at a time, while module shopping.

Woah, you have an evil mind. Sure you're not already working for FD?

 

[Marra Morgan]

Private Group should have a PvE flag. It won't do anything in game, but it will display a message when logging into the group, each and every time you log in.

"This is a PvE group. Engaging in PvP will have consequences for your account"

That's fair enough.

Although, for accuracy let's say:

"This is a PvE group. Engaging in PvP will have consequences for your group membership"

As we know, only repeated violations of a PG's rules can affect your actual game account.

I do like the idea of more admin tools being available for PG owners, so maybe allow them to customise the message to clarify the PG's ruleset?

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Now for PGs there should be an option for the group creator in the game settings to designate the group PvE only. This would make all CMDR ships invulnerable to weapon firing and ramming from other cmdr ships ONLY. To implement this as a feature, some serious coding may be required but I think Frontier's 100+ ED staff should suffice for that.

This is actually the third mode that many players, including myself, would like to see in the game.
A PvE mode where the only combat possible is vs NPC.
According to mr. Braben this mode would break the game even more. TBH I can't see why... it's not so different from a SOLO mode, except that you can see other players and make wings with your friends.

PvP is anyway already broken.
I remember during a Thargoids hunt I was equipped to fight Thargoids on my Chieftain with military grade hull, shield boosterS (A), Hull and Module reinforcements.
No weapons to fight back players because the AX weapons are simply useless. I've been interdicted by another CMDR twice (it's fine he was playing the part of the bugs defender). I couldn't escape his interdictions (twice) and both times I could escape with a bare 20% hull and ship burning everywhere. How could I ever escape alive with an exploration build???

That's why PvP is broken! Interdicting and fighting player is not the real issue per se. Here are the issues:

1. The game mechanics that should allow you to escape is broken because is not balanced and it favors the attacker (+1 point for the ganker)
2. When you enter the combat instance your ship has absolutely no possibility to survive because all numbers are in favour of the attacker (+1 another point for the ganker).
3. During a combat session there's not even the time to call for assistance from other players because you're dead in seconds.
4. Once you're killed you lose your data (credit loss and possibility to see your name on planet discoveries), you need to pay the rebuy (credit loss), you spawn far away from your last position (time loss). No consequences for the gankers except a bounty.

The REBUY and C&P should be completely revised. Killing for fun should be an expensive hobby!
When a harmless ship (without weapons and any kind of reinforcement) is destroyed by a player, the killer is deducted of the rebuys credits and the data values from ship destroyed as soon as he docks to a starport.
The explorer penalty is the respawn to the closest station.

So if you really want to play this kind of game you must be rich and earn the money to perform this expensive hobby. My current rebuy is 4.5 milion and my average data value is always between 10-20 milion. If you really want to destroy me, then pay the money!
This would open possibility to new combat scenario where killers interdict you but do not destroy you. They can leave you with 10% hull and then let you go... So the made the pew pew without incurring in any penalty.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

That's fair enough.
[...reasonable replies to idea of PvE flags, etc...]
I do like the idea of more admin tools being available for PG owners, so maybe allow them to customise the message to clarify the PG's ruleset?

There's still the problem of the shared universe. I don't personally care, but that's largely because I tried to care (about powerplay) and felt it was utterly ruined by solo/PG hauling (among other things). The same applies with BGS/faction type rivalries (as testified by at least one long term CMDRs earlier in this thread, and was my impression to start with). So I gave up caring about any of it - BGS, PP, etc. As far as I can tell, they are almost always races to the bottom of who can best game an opaque and confusing system in solo.

If we give PGs more power to control behavior then they shouldn't then get to also exert influence on the open world from their safe havens. (I don't think they should even get that now).

I also think open needs real tools/mechanics to facilitate interactions beyond murderhobo'ing and patrolling the small list of high traffic systems. With the caveat that such tools should be widely useful, not just a tool to hunt the weak. For instance I sacrifice quite a bit (compared to pure PvP builds or even trading builds) putting manifest and wake scanners on my medium pirate ships - I wish those tools could do a lot more.

I think it would also help to incentivize open play. Commodities that were acquired in open (and never migrated to another mode) sell for profit bonus, etc. Maybe weekly leaderboards for open play (mining, trading, acquisition of stolen goods from CMDRs, etc - probably omit killing entirely since that would just become a race for seal clubbing). Just brainstorming, but the gist is more reasons to learn how to survive and thrive in open and interact.

Also healies would probably need to be fixed. It's hard enough to kill a decent ship/pilot. Make that multiple pilots with healies and you might as well not even bother trying to stop a transport/mining wing.

 

[deleteduser]

...
1. The game mechanics that should allow you to escape is broken because is not balanced and it favors the attacker (+1 point for the ganker)
2. When you enter the combat instance your ship has absolutely no possibility to survive because all numbers are in favour of the attacker (+1 another point for the ganker).
3. During a combat session there's not even the time to call for assistance from other players because you're dead in seconds.
4. Once you're killed you lose your data (credit loss and possibility to see your name on planet discoveries), you need to pay the rebuy (credit loss), you spawn far away from your last position (time loss). No consequences for the gankers except a bounty.
...

1. You did escape... twice. As has been pointed out all over these forums, escaping is not difficult if you use the available game mechanics.

2. See 1.

3. See 1.

4. See 1. Further, what other consequences should the victor face? A medal perhaps? That would go down a storm I'm sure.

The REBUY and C&P should be completely revised. Killing for fun should be an expensive hobby!
When a harmless ship (without weapons and any kind of reinforcement) is destroyed by a player, the killer is deducted of the rebuys credits and the data values from ship destroyed as soon as he docks to a starport.
The explorer penalty is the respawn to the closest station.

So if you really want to play this kind of game you must be rich and earn the money to perform this expensive hobby. My current rebuy is 4.5 milion and my average data value is always between 10-20 milion. If you really want to destroy me, then pay the money!
This would open possibility to new combat scenario where killers interdict you but do not destroy you. They can leave you with 10% hull and then let you go... So the made the pew pew without incurring in any penalty.

This proposal could easily be abused by established and experienced players avoiding even basic NPC combat to maintain a 'Harmless' rank indefinitely and using their 'Noob Halo' to trundle around the galaxy unarmed and unshielded.

 

[Marra Morgan]

I don't mind giving PG owners more power to effectively police the desired playstyle. But they shouldn't then get to also exert influence on the open world from their safe havens.

I'm the BGS Director for my Squadron, and I have had no problem whatsoever with PG and Solo players exerting influence on the BGS. That's the nature of the game and I deal with it using exactly the same mechanics as those who act against us. Loren's Legion plays in Open, and that is our choice. Others are free to choose whatever mode suits their playstyle.

I also think open needs real tools/mechanics to facilitate interactions beyond murderhobo'ing and the short list of high traffic systems. With the caveat that it should be widely useful, not just a tool to hunt the weak. For instance I sacrifice quite a bit (compared to pure PvP builds) putting manifest and wake scanners on my medium ship pirate builds - I wish those tools could do a lot more.

Sure, I agree with you here

I think it would also help to incentivize open play. Commodities that were acquired in open, and never moved to another mode, sell for profit bonus, etc. Maybe weekly leaderboards for open play (mining, trading, acquisition of stolen goods from CMDRs, etc - probably omit killing entirely since that would just become a race for seal clubbing). Basically more reasons to learn how to survive and thrive in open.

I'm not in favour of incentivising Open, tbh. Personally, I don't feel like the game owes me anything extra for simply choosing the mode that suits how I like to play. And to be really honest, there's some folks who I would prefer didn't play in Open - you know the ones, they make posts here about some calamity that has beset them in Open and expect Frontier to step in and change the design of the game for them - I'd much prefer they just made a sensible choice from the main menu and enjoy themselves.

 

[Sooden]

...
The REBUY and C&P should be completely revised. Killing for fun should be an expensive hobby!
...

The Following it is not directed at the post but that 'Triggered Me' into a rant

...and this is an area where the Player killers, well any killer of NPC or play seems happy to let Elite Cuddle them... All this talk about Elite being cutthroat and open is dangerous, 'but don't touch my credits' if i mess up

Players now get put in a detention facility, so, they are caught, Therefor, can be charge for all crimes... The insurance company can now seize their asset to cover the full cost of any ship they destroyed (unless the law if also cuddling murderers or just insane)

Have the bounty system as is, it works, but also have, total fines. Total fines account for the value of ships destroyed (in full), this is then added to your rebuy. If you cant over it, you are bankrupt... you know , how new player end up when they get ganked?

So funny, that players that kill newbs and tell them its part of the game, yet would probably not welcome a total fine system that could make them lose it all (as happens to new players) as a result of being destroyed, as a result of their skill in the game.

Hay, can prove me wrong and the hero gankers out there can get behind the idea of total value fines... I know i would be more willing to hunt you down if i knew it could brake your bank... Infact, you may even get reverse greifing by rich people, letting you get kills of billion credit ships, just to help top up your total fines, before Dusting ya

All the tuff talk, but at the end of the day, some people only take that stance because they are safe, and cuddled by C&p

 

[deleteduser]

[EDIT] oof, noob forum skillz.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

[triggered rant about how gankers, despite being excellent at killing ships, are actually not that "tuff"]

or you could, you know, watch rinzler's video and not die

Credits are meaningless anyway with void opals. 700 million bounties, while usually ignored, can be paid off with less time void opal mining than it takes to grind mats for a top level PvP ship.

 

[Shaamaan]

I've made a similar response to the video itself.

I think the choice to have the rules of reimbursement "undefined" is a deliberate one. It keeps requests for such reimbursement low and allows them to be handled on a case-by-case basis using "common sense" rather than some hard rules. As such, the general rule, I feel, is that if you play in a PG with just your friend, Richard, who turns out to be a REAL Richard, then you likely can't really hope for reimbursement of any kind. On the other hand, if a big-enough group has an "infiltrator" problem, then FDevs might reimburse the losses. MIGHT being the key word here, there's no guarantee, and there's no definition of a "big enough group".

As for the act of infiltrating PvE PGs - that's a Richard move and everyone knows this. It might be permitted by game rules, but it's still a Richard move and isn't really defensible. Implementing "PvE-only" mechanics is, likely, out of scope (too much potential issues unless we want ships to "phase" through each other, which will look SOOO good). Likewise, most (if not all) C&P suggestions I've seen aren't full-proof and allow for abuse. I don't advocate for banning such people; merely to vocally out them as the Richards that they are (and only banning them from the respective PGs as needed, of course). The case of "circumventing PG bans", which warrants actual GAME bans, seems very sensible.

The biggest complaint I have is that the game clearly cannot handle the idea of a "gentleman PvE group", at least not without bending over backwards. Mobius had to be split up into multiple smaller groups due to technical limitations and issues, and there are no good management tools or APIs outside of the in-game UI. If PGs were supposed to be a replacement of a PvE mode, then their implementation feels rushed and is lacking.

Finally, a quick word on people complaining on the forums which was brought up in the video - I think it's not REALLY a surprise that the people who complain will be the ones who get blown up. Why would the attackers complain? ...than again, every once in a blue moon someone pops up with the really smart suggestion to scrap all modes but Open; this, in translation, basically means "waaaaaah, I don't have enough targets to shoot at!"...

 

[Sooden]

or you could, you know, watch rinzler's video and not die

Credits are meaningless anyway with void opals. 700 million bounties, while usually ignored, can be paid off with less time void opal mining than it takes to grind mats for a top level PvP ship.

missed the point didn't ya...

 

[Nova Viper Dwagon]

Obsidian ant still be like "oh this is not a big deal"
Fourms have exploded with ganking, Nope, still not a problem!
I feel there is salt in the air