What Constitutes as Cheating

Trading all my elements for lower grade because I know I am going to go get higher grade ones 1600 LY away is cheating.

Killing cruise liners at visitor beacons in anarchy systems and using 9 collector limpets to vacuum the goodies is cheating (because I use a G5 engineered corvette, not even remotely fair)

Stacking missions from different factions to kill the same pirates is cheating.

Suicide to get back to the bubble is cheating

Taking haulage missions just to get the pursuit ships is cheating

Using the ship ramming technique to kill pirate lords since they never engage you is cheating

Jesus Christ I am a cheater.
 
And that kinda begets my point... context and intent matters immensely. That keyboard macro was functionally no different to something like voice attack. Market UI allowed the selection of selling biowaste with just a series of timed keystrokes. The key macro was literally just:
  • Enter key (select biowaste for sale)
  • "Left" key (to decrement the counter, i.e "sell 1 biowaste"
  • Enter (to confirm sale)
  • Wait 10 seconds
...copy and paste 250 times. I justify that usage at the time because I was intending to prove a (now patched) exploit and report it to FD, but clearly any other use would've definitely been cheating. Of course, philosophical arguments then came up of "Well, now I know that, if I choose to sell 10t of every type of mineral for profit, instead of 200t of gold, because I know the former will have a bigger effect on influence, is that cheating?"... but I digress.

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned is it really doesn't matter what player's consider cheating... it's FD's prerogative. 12.4 of the EULA is a key part of this.

What this means is that... assume Voice Attack is at least in breach of something in the EULA and would otherwise be considered "cheating"... just because FD don't say "it's cheating" doesn't mean it isn't cheating. EULAs aren't legally binding either, as they're generally full of holes, contraditions and vague speech. And that's fine; the intent is for (in this case, FD) to have the flexibility to, in all circumstances, to say "Play nice, or we take your toys away".

A lot of people are throwing up their definitions of cheating, and people are following up with "What about Voice Attack? What about things which auto-upload to EDSM?"... if you look at the EULA, these are all in breach of some aspects of it. Even the ubiquitous "modifying the colour palette" isn't explicitly allowed, and actually falls afoul of some of the EULA assertions (usually 3c, which is so vague it's not funny)

So is FD going to go out and claim that these are all in breach of the EULA (which is what 'cheating' is)? Of course not... FD know these enrich and value-add to the game... but doing nothing doesn't mean they're "OK" in the context of the EULA.

... tl;dr people claiming "Is Voice Attack/Keyboard Macros/Colour Pallette switches/EDSM auto-uploaders cheating?"... maybe it's not cheating, but it's almost certainly in breach of (someone's interpretation of) the EULA, just FD don't care (on a case-by-case basis)
For the sake of this discussion, and any definition of "cheating" as it pertains to Frontier's Game EULA, for which a quote for one selected section was listed, I include a link here to the entire EULA as posted by Frontier on their store and support site. I think Frontier does care about cheating in any of their games, and in my opinion, this EULA is legally binding on those who pay for, use and play Frontier Games.

Section 12.4 actually states: If we fail to insist that you perform any of your obligations under this EULA, or if we do not enforce our rights against you, or if we delay in doing so, that will not mean that we have waived our rights against you and will not mean that you do not have to comply with those obligations.


Personally, I agree with Webster's Definition of "Cheating".


07.....
 
Actually, Inara and other sites like it, get the data from the Frontier API (Application Programming Interface) for which both consoles and PC's can generate data.

API: a set of functions and procedures allowing the creation of applications that access the features or data of an operating system, application, or other service.


o7...
They don't even need your PC anymore, Inara can get the data directly from Frontiers servers.
 
For the sake of this discussion, and any definition of "cheating" as it pertains to Frontier's Game EULA, for which a quote for one selected section was listed, I include a link here to the entire EULA as posted by Frontier on their store and support site. I think Frontier does care about cheating in any of their games, and in my opinion, this EULA is legally binding on those who pay for, use and play Frontier Games.

Section 12.4 actually states: If we fail to insist that you perform any of your obligations under this EULA, or if we do not enforce our rights against you, or if we delay in doing so, that will not mean that we have waived our rights against you and will not mean that you do not have to comply with those obligations.


Personally, I agree with Webster's Definition of "Cheating".


07.....
I think you might've misunderstood what i was trying to say. On phone so I'll elaborate more if you like later... but just to emphasise.

I didn't suggest FD didn't care about cheating. Rather, i suggested they don't necessarily care about EULA breaches, of which cheating is one form of breach which I'm certain FD do care about. The relevance of 12.4 is that, just because FD don't ban things like voice attack, doesn't mean they don't breach the EULA (though again... breaching the EULA != cheating)

People in previous discussion are suggesting things which are pretty clearly cheating, but then asking "but all it's doing is X, which things like voice attack do"... that's because yes, VA almost certainly does breach the EULA, but (for that specific application) FD doesn't care, or consider it cheating.
 
I take exception to that. Maybe you meant having a keyboard?

It's been tradition, especially when gaming from the early 80's were all stand alone solo games running on PC's (before consoles) with the code exposed and written in programming languages we all understood, and learned from to become programmers, to alter our solo games with code programming then called "mods". These "mods" on stand-alone games were just improvements to the game play for your benefit only, on a solo run game.

Now, when online gaming started up, these "mods" slowly began to change the game dynamics and in games like Skyrim and others, were adopted by game developers and actually promoted by the game developer as approved, and for Skyrim and others, were included as "player submitted modifications". In all of Skyrim's games, you can "mod" it to your hearts content, and never be called a "cheater".

So, Frontier for example, allows you to "mod" your GUI and HUD. The difference in changing your HUD colors is a simple text edit with tools built in and available on the system or OS via a Frontier exposed and open xml file, which gives you no game advantage, other than maybe your eyesight.

Someone injecting code with hackers tools not available on the system or OS directly into memory addresses giving themselves a game advantage you don't get or have is more than just degrees, its a game changer and miles apart.

To say that someone offering a "mod" for a game is offering some kind of cheat, which uses game developer output files or open code which can be read by a simple text editor available on the system or OS, left open by the developer of a game, is just wrong. Game "mods" enhance game-play without giving anyone an advantage, and are not directly fed back into the MMO as changed game code data.

As with anything in computer programming, you can use the tools available and the code exposed for the benefit of all, or the detriment of all. It's the person using the tools in a detrimental way to give "themselves" an advantage you don't get, is called a "cheater". Applications like VoiceAttack, EDMC, HUD Editors, and Journal Readers with their associated websites, without exception, use text files left exposed by Frontier, to grovel and present data for everyone's benefit and are called, for lack of a better term, "Mods" to the game.

When you break into code, which was not exposed by the developer of a game, and change that "game code" which is not available to you without a sophisticated development or programming tool, which is used for "building code" with a mindset of "taking advantage for your own benefit, which is denied to others", then you are CHEATING.

As a white-hat hacker, one who taught cyber warfare, who has made suggestions to Frontier on addressing script and bot cheaters, and who participates in securing corporate assets from hackers on HackerOne.Com, I can say that anyone taking advantage of an MMO driven game with programming tools which alter compiled developer game code not exposed and which cannot be read with a simple text editor, is a "hacker" and a "cheater" and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of civil "Copyright and IP Law".

o7....
What a load of hogwash!!

VoiceAttack, a voice operated command processor accepted for use by Fdev, a key spoofer, can be used to perform a multitude of operations one after the other without ever having to use a keyboard or controller. Further, this VA can can be operated externally from inside another program.

Here's an example. You interdict me, and I submit, and I say one word, and my pips will change, my throttle will be set to full and the ship will auto boost continuously. That's one example.

Here's a working example on my own setup. I enter the co-ordinates (or select from a list) near a planet. I press one button on my mac and it sends a series of commands to my PC, which receives them. It then starts an automated poll of the STATUS file and sends the GPS of my ship to my mac. The mac software, then based on that GPS, resends re-orientating commands to the PC, which sends them to VoiceAttack. Voice Attack then sends keystrokes to Elite to change my ship direction.

This allows me to navigate to any point on any planet, without using a keyboard or controller and from a different machine. Note the 'MAC'.. I also have a gaming laptop, receiving info from the journal file, and displaying various information on gauges.

Want another example? When I finish mining, I say 'plot best opals' and my PC sends my current system to my Mac. My mac then opens the website and finds the closest system with the best sell rate for Opals. It then sends this to my PC, which in turn calls a VA script to open the Gal map and select the system. Close it and I'm ready to start my jumps.

I won't even start on the having multiple account benefits.
-

This whole thing of injecting and code changing memory etc displays an acute lack of understanding of what is legally available and usable.

I use lots of scripts all doing stuff with VA, interfacing to Inara, Interfacing to my own written Gauges and code. None of it is illegal, in fact it's all supported by FDev.

Does it give me an advantage? Yes it does. because I can do things that you cannot.
I can have them done autonomously multitudes of times quicker than you can manually.

I support all the above. I do not condone, modifying memory etc, and in fact don't see the point of it in a gamsim like Elite. I mean, there is no 'I Win'.

Further.. your 'Prosecuted to fullest extend of IP law'? Do you even know what IP means ? Intellectual Property. To breach IP the user/games/hacker has to publish any changes to 'copyrighted' code to a public audience and even then it would have to be marketed as a replacement for the title.. Intellectual Property rights extend to the title, tools, ideas not the code. That's where copyright law takes over.

And just to clarify, no company ever, has won a suit against a user who hacked their game.

I could advise FDev too. But I doubt they're going to rewrite their net architecture. And until they do, they have no hope in beating the hackers/mem injectors.
 
What a load of hogwash!!

VoiceAttack, a voice operated command processor accepted for use by Fdev, a key spoofer, can be used to perform a multitude of operations one after the other without ever having to use a keyboard or controller. Further, this VA can can be operated externally from inside another program.

Here's an example. You interdict me, and I submit, and I say one word, and my pips will change, my throttle will be set to full and the ship will auto boost continuously. That's one example.

Here's a working example on my own setup. I enter the co-ordinates (or select from a list) near a planet. I press one button on my mac and it sends a series of commands to my PC, which receives them. It then starts an automated poll of the STATUS file and sends the GPS of my ship to my mac. The mac software, then based on that GPS, resends re-orientating commands to the PC, which sends them to VoiceAttack. Voice Attack then sends keystrokes to Elite to change my ship direction.

This allows me to navigate to any point on any planet, without using a keyboard or controller and from a different machine. Note the 'MAC'.. I also have a gaming laptop, receiving info from the journal file, and displaying various information on gauges.

Want another example? When I finish mining, I say 'plot best opals' and my PC sends my current system to my Mac. My mac then opens the website and finds the closest system with the best sell rate for Opals. It then sends this to my PC, which in turn calls a VA script to open the Gal map and select the system. Close it and I'm ready to start my jumps.

I won't even start on the having multiple account benefits.
-

This whole thing of injecting and code changing memory etc displays an acute lack of understanding of what is legally available and usable.

I use lots of scripts all doing stuff with VA, interfacing to Inara, Interfacing to my own written Gauges and code. None of it is illegal, in fact it's all supported by FDev.

Does it give me an advantage? Yes it does. because I can do things that you cannot.
I can have them done autonomously multitudes of times quicker than you can manually.

I support all the above. I do not condone, modifying memory etc, and in fact don't see the point of it in a gamsim like Elite. I mean, there is no 'I Win'.

Further.. your 'Prosecuted to fullest extend of IP law'? Do you even know what IP means ? Intellectual Property. To breach IP the user/games/hacker has to publish any changes to 'copyrighted' code to a public audience and even then it would have to be marketed as a replacement for the title.. Intellectual Property rights extend to the title, tools, ideas not the code. That's where copyright law takes over.

And just to clarify, no company ever, has won a suit against a user who hacked their game.

I could advise FDev too. But I doubt they're going to rewrite their net architecture. And until they do, they have no hope in beating the hackers/mem injectors.
You are just mistaken here .....

1) And just to clarify, no company ever has won a suit against a user who hacked their game.
That’s cheating! Video-game companies suing crooked players
A check of several other reporting sites state two have plead guilty, which means the company won the cases.

I know what Intellectual Property is, you apparently do not.
2) To breach IP the user/games/hacker has to publish any changes to 'copyrighted' code to a public audience.
Hackers do publish changes to copyrighted code to public audiences. They call them "scripts", "bots" and "trainers", and you can download them and see for yourself.

3) Intellectual Property rights extend to the title, tools, ideas not the code.
Looks like it does extend to "code" as well, or Frontier would not be buying a "global IP license".

The only statement I made with reference to VoiceAttack was that it's scripts are editable by any text editor and not a cheat or hack of any kind. VA and HCS Voicepacks are supported and licensed by Frontier. It says so on their respective websites.

Everyone here on this forum is entitled to an opinion without condescending remarks which violates forum rules.

o7....
 
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Here's an example. You interdict me, and I submit, and I say one word, and my pips will change, my throttle will be set to full and the ship will auto boost continuously. That's one example.

Here's a working example on my own setup. I enter the co-ordinates (or select from a list) near a planet. I press one button on my mac and it sends a series of commands to my PC, which receives them. It then starts an automated poll of the STATUS file and sends the GPS of my ship to my mac. The mac software, then based on that GPS, resends re-orientating commands to the PC, which sends them to VoiceAttack. Voice Attack then sends keystrokes to Elite to change my ship direction.

This allows me to navigate to any point on any planet, without using a keyboard or controller and from a different machine. Note the 'MAC'.. I also have a gaming laptop, receiving info from the journal file, and displaying various information on gauges.

Want another example? When I finish mining, I say 'plot best opals' and my PC sends my current system to my Mac. My mac then opens the website and finds the closest system with the best sell rate for Opals. It then sends this to my PC, which in turn calls a VA script to open the Gal map and select the system. Close it and I'm ready to start my jumps.

Does it give me an advantage? Yes it does. because I can do things that you cannot.
I can have them done autonomously multitudes of times quicker than you can manually.
While this all sounds incredibly cool, it's one of the many reasons I gave up multiplayer PC gaming for console gaming, because here we're all on a much more even playing field. That's not to say some super-clever (cough me cough) fellow couldn't do something similar using a console (you're using one computer to control another, which is something akin to the 'analog hole' in DRM), but AFAIK the average console gamer is neither this clever nor motivated. Heck, most of us don't even bother with a HOTAS, LOL.
 
I've abandoned multiplayer a long time ago. Why? I feel no push on playing with someone I don't know. Winning or loosing to one "shadow guy" is worse than winning or loosing to an NPC for me. I love multiplayer with friends, or in those cases where we get the time to know each other, usually server based online role play games like Neverwinter Nights was.
No MMOs for me. Elite in Open? I could, if I didn't have to constantly check my back for some loose cannon on a killing spree.
 
You are just mistaken here .....

1) And just to clarify, no company ever has won a suit against a user who hacked their game.
That’s cheating! Video-game companies suing crooked players
A check of several other reporting sites state two have plead guilty, which means the company won the cases.

I know what Intellectual Property is, you apparently do not.
2) To breach IP the user/games/hacker has to publish any changes to 'copyrighted' code to a public audience.
Hackers do publish changes to copyrighted code to public audiences. They call them "scripts", "bots" and "trainers", and you can download them and see for yourself.

3) Intellectual Property rights extend to the title, tools, ideas not the code.
Looks like it does extend to "code" as well, or Frontier would not be buying a "global IP license".

The only statement I made with reference to VoiceAttack was that it's scripts are editable by any text editor and not a cheat or hack of any kind. VA and HCS Voicepacks are supported and licensed by Frontier. It says so on their respective websites.

Everyone here on this forum is entitled to an opinion without condescending remarks which violates forum rules.

o7....
Can you post a followup link to the won court case? Maybe the result and punishment?

'scripts' do not contain any of the copyrighted code. Scripts 'operate' on the copyrighted code!
'bots' do not contain any of the copyrighted game code. bots are usually programs that send messages/scripts/commands to the copyrighted code, indeed, inject bypasses to the copyrighted code!
'trainers' do not contain any of the copyrighted game code. Trainers inject bypasses to the copyrighted code, or monitor and reset values in the game code memory space.

A 'global IP licence' is an exclusive licence granting the company global licence to sell/operate a specific set of rights. Copyright is the exact ownership of the object/mechanic/code/image.

I'll give you an example which may help you. I am a professional photographer. Any image I take, I immediately own the copyright on. How-ever, if I take an image of the Eifel tower, I own the copyright and not the IP. Because France owns the global IP on the Eifel Tower, it is illegal to photograph it at night.

2nd example: I am a professional developer since '79. I develop commercial systems, and game extension packs. I own the copyright on all my code (unless it is expressly written for an employing company). I may licence the use of that code. I also own 'some' IP on the code design, build mechanics and frameworks. Someone else could come along steal my design, (The IP) or they could even resell or modify the code, which would breach the copyright.

3rd example. I develop systems in Saleforce. I own the copyright on the code I write, but not the IP as the IP is owned by Salesforce.

Frontier Developments own 'some' IP on Elite Dangerous. And example of where they do not, is the trading. Elite (1984) was built on the idea of a space trading game, so how could Frontier claim IP on something that was developed by someone else long before they ever existed? And, if you care to do some research, you'll find that Mr Bell was instrumental in the development of Elite '84. So again, as the copyright and IP were at that time owned by Mr. Braben, and Mr. Bell, and Mr Bell never transferred his ownership, nor was it purchased, there are areas where the EULA IP is not worth the paper (or screen) it is written on.

You are however correct in that everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's just that some are based in fact, and some, [yours] not so much.

o7
 
While this all sounds incredibly cool, it's one of the many reasons I gave up multiplayer PC gaming for console gaming, because here we're all on a much more even playing field. That's not to say some super-clever (cough me cough) fellow couldn't do something similar using a console (you're using one computer to control another, which is something akin to the 'analog hole' in DRM), but AFAIK the average console gamer is neither this clever nor motivated. Heck, most of us don't even bother with a HOTAS, LOL.
I have written a whole lot of stuff for Elite on the PC and the MAC, however, I have never injected nor messed with their game code or memory space. I simply extend, push the boundaries of what is available, to extend and enrichen, my play experience. I'm also one of those FligfhtSIm cockpit builders, so Elite is a more a sandbox to me.

I'm pretty sure if I had an XBox, I'd find a way to extend that to the PC too.
 
Since Frontier makes most of their sales in game copies, and cheaters and/or modders will always exist in some form, and many complain cheaters and/or modders affect the game and/or BGS, the solution may be as simple as providing a second edition of Elite.

A moddable version (generating more sales) in addition to the one we now have. The two versions play on different servers and are completely isolated from each other.

You could have two copies of the same game, with two separate Frontier Accounts on different Frontier server run galaxies and BGS.

Gankers, bots, scripts, trainers and cheaters in one Frontier galaxy in a version designed for that purpose. (That, may be entertaining to watch!)

Those opposed to that type of Elite have this original version, on different servers, without those features, playing the way the game was originally designed, with a BGS unaffected by those features.

If your caught cheating in the original version, your game gets converted to the moddable version and your moved to those servers.

Now, everyone is happy. It's a win for Frontier. It's a win for those who want the original design. It's a win for those who want to mod and cheat.

Everyone gets what they want and the community is happy.

If it's just sales and game copies that matter, this is a perfect solution for all.

o7.....
 
I think you might've misunderstood what i was trying to say. On phone so I'll elaborate more if you like later... but just to emphasise.

I didn't suggest FD didn't care about cheating. Rather, i suggested they don't necessarily care about EULA breaches, of which cheating is one form of breach which I'm certain FD do care about. The relevance of 12.4 is that, just because FD don't ban things like voice attack, doesn't mean they don't breach the EULA (though again... breaching the EULA != cheating)

People in previous discussion are suggesting things which are pretty clearly cheating, but then asking "but all it's doing is X, which things like voice attack do"... that's because yes, VA almost certainly does breach the EULA, but (for that specific application) FD doesn't care, or consider it cheating.
Pardon my interjection but I couldn't help but notice that you've stated any violation of the EULA constitutes cheating, which I don't believe is correct. A breach of the EULA simply means you are using the product in a manner not intended by the publisher. Cheating is inclusive of not using the product as intended but all breaches of the EULA do not necessarily involve cheating. For example, it is against the EULA to reverse engineer code within the game for use in a game you are developing. That isn't cheating, its copyright and possibly patent infringement.
 
Pardon my interjection but I couldn't help but notice that you've stated any violation of the EULA constitutes cheating, which I don't believe is correct.
I explicitly don't say that in my post... in fact what you claim is exactly the opposite of what I posted.
Rather, i suggested they don't necessarily care about EULA breaches, of which cheating is one form of breach which I'm certain FD do care about.
...
(... breaching the EULA != cheating)
I'm being very deliberate where I use the term "Cheating" rather than "EULA Breach", because cheating is a subset of EULA breaches.

I guess I could've replaced != with "not necessarily" to be more explicit... but was assumed it was a fairly implicit anyway.

The only statement I made with reference to VoiceAttack was that it's scripts are editable by any text editor and not a cheat or hack of any kind. VA and HCS Voicepacks are supported and licensed by Frontier. It says so on their respective websites.
While I'm posting here again... is there somewhere that FD have a list of "Authorised/supported" 3rd party apps/mods?

I used VoiceAttack in my above examples because I genuinely wasn't sure of it's status as "authorised" by FD, so s/VoiceAttack/some unauthorised 3rd party app or mod/g.
 
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