What the new secret feature should be

[Wily Rites]

In fact, turning elite into an 'unreal tournament' would be ... although a gankers dream and despite their best efforts, utterly beyond comprehension.
I must say that I do love the inherent irony!

 

[Nowski]

Apparently was possible in UE4.

What's shown in the video isn't remotely comparable to Elite Dangerous planets, it's more or less a bare minimum to do an animated zoom in and out of a particular spot using fixed library assets.

For example, you can see the actual terrain only exists for a small square patch (21:55)

It's a nice tutorial but has no real relevance to a fully explorable planet, let alone 400 billion systems worth of procedurally generated ones..

 

[Wily Rites]

That so many folk really don't grok what elite is, is one of the things that makes it so amazing; That it is procedurally generated in such a way as to make it seem as though it is not, in effect hiding how good it is.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

There was a misunderstanding. I didn't say creating weather is easy. I only meant that synchronization between players is easy. I don't see synchronization as the main problem here. The weather itself, the rules by which it is rendered, its effect on the environment, on the player and the ship, the effect of the ship on the environment, landscape erosion, the wind and the new rules for rendering mountains in connection with it, optimizing the whole process, etc. - that's really hard to do. Very hard.

Got it - thanks. From my perspective, what I'm saying is that the synchronisation itself is easy once the generation problem is solved - but the requirement to have that easy synchronisation makes the generation problem so much harder in the first place.

(e.g. in a single-player game you could generate the weather on system arrival, then incrementally evolve it only in the bits the player can see, then discard it on system exit and start over on next arrival)

Not an argument to say FD should switch to UE5, but one day, someone is going to use UE5 (or 6 or 7) to make something like ED/SC/NMS/whatever.

UE5 still has serious performance issues reported with loading regions >20km across - not a problem at all for 99.9% of games, utterly fatal for even a relatively basic space sim.

I doubt that'll be "fixed" in UE6 or UE7 because while it's not all that difficult to support larger areas as a goal in itself (plenty of 90s-era games did, after all) it requires compromises which would make the engine less optimised for displaying the high-detail close-in environments that everyone else actually uses it for, to cover a use case that (to within measurement error) no-one needs.

The reason space sims tend to write their own engine is because the market is so small (and so split on what a "space sim" actually involves...) that no-one has produced a modern off-the-shelf engine optimised for space sims. Maybe one day someone will and there'll be a big increase as a result in the number of space sims being made - "first, make your own game engine" is a pretty large barrier to entry right now! - but I'd expect that to be something new rather than a descendant of the optimised-for-something-else Unreal.

 

[SergMx]

...
The reason space sims tend to write their own engine is because the market is so small (and so split on what a "space sim" actually involves...) that no-one has produced a modern off-the-shelf engine optimised for space sims. Maybe one day someone will and there'll be a big increase as a result in the number of space sims being made - "first, make your own game engine" is a pretty large barrier to entry right now! - but I'd expect that to be something new rather than a descendant of the optimised-for-something-else Unreal.

What game besides Elite has a more or less real universe ? Well, not about the name of the systems, but the distance between bodies in the systems, the rotation of these bodies, gravity, etc. ?

 

[varonica]

What game besides Elite has a more or less real universe ? Well, not about the name of the systems, but the distance between bodies in the systems, the rotation of these bodies, gravity, etc. ?

Don't think there is one, most games don't even use full sized simulated planets, SC are one tenth scale, NMS planets scale down to the ludicrously small, basically walk around them in a reasonable amount of time, there's no orbital movement in either NMS the game or SC the tech demo, EVE Online, not as far as I am aware.......of course I haven't tried or researched all games, but of the 3 big ones NMS, EVE Online and ED, and the one tech demo SC, ED is the only one.

 

[metatheurgist]

Never been done before?

 

[HRDiagram]

What game besides Elite has a more or less real universe ? Well, not about the name of the systems, but the distance between bodies in the systems, the rotation of these bodies, gravity, etc. ?

Kerbal Space Program, even though it's got only one solar system, but with mods it can be changed to simulate the physics of anything, fundamentally.
KSP2 had plans to add multiple systems, but it's pretty much dead, now.

Space Engine needs a mention, too.
While not really a game, but rather a universe simulator, it's pretty much accurate.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

What game besides Elite has a more or less real universe ? Well, not about the name of the systems, but the distance between bodies in the systems, the rotation of these bodies, gravity, etc. ?

This is one of the things where people are "split on what a space sim actually involves", certainly.

The basics of distance + rotation + gravity aren't all that difficult in themselves - FE2 did that back in the 90s, for example - but in most games set in space implementing them would get in the way of the desired gameplay rather than add to it.

Kerbal Space Program is the other modern example with realistic distances, sizes, orbits, rotations, gravity, etc. ... and also realistic thruster capabilities and travel speeds, which Elite Dangerous avoids implementing because it wouldn't work for the sort of game Frontier wanted to make.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

have i missed something...... or am i being way to pessimistic? but is base building or dense atmospheric planet landings or even vast explorable deralicts even remotely likely as the elite feature update this year?

i really hope so but given we have not had so much as a squeek from FD about it, i suspect some people are setting themselves up for a dissapointment.

more likely imo is an extension to something we already have.... personally i would not be surprised to see limited ground combat like we already have, but with thargoids..... so mostly the work needed would just be a few new alien models.

if we are lucky maybe even some thargoid controlled structures with alien like goop plastered on the walls etc.

but new planet types with new terrains, or base building...................... please let it be so but i would wager it is not happening - at least not without a fully fledged paid update.

(currently the terrain generation cant even build caves on the surface its mostly just a height map)

 

[Koma Pahu]

i really hope so but given we have not had so much as a squeek from FD about it, i suspect some people are setting themselves up for a dissapointment.

It’s always the case, followed by a bunch of salt about how bad FDev are.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

have i missed something...... or am i being way to pessimistic? but is base building or dense atmospheric planet landings or even vast explorable deralicts even remotely likely as the elite feature update this year?

It seems unlikely to be anything that substantial, certainly - whatever it is, it's something they've been doing in parallel with the end stages of the Thargoid war and building the repeatedly-delayed Powerplay, plus smaller things like SCO and the Engineering adjustments, at a time when the company as a whole certainly hasn't had the spare cash to do big side-projects.

That said, some of those features do have quite broad scopes for what they might include. "Base building" where you pick one of the existing Odyssey settlement templates, and an uninhabited planet (no more precise control over position), pay your credits, and you get something similar to the Carrier interface to purchase services for it ... well, that's all things the game already does, just in a new combination and purpose. Maybe that would be practical.
(Would it make everyone who'd asked for base building happy? No, but nor would any other implementation - player's visions of what base building would be for are too contradictory for that)

 

[Koma Pahu]

It seems unlikely to be anything that substantial, certainly - whatever it is, it's something they've been doing in parallel with the end stages of the Thargoid war and building the repeatedly-delayed Powerplay, plus smaller things like SCO and the Engineering adjustments, at a time when the company as a whole certainly hasn't had the spare cash to do big side-projects.

That said, some of those features do have quite broad scopes for what they might include. "Base building" where you pick one of the existing Odyssey settlement templates, and an uninhabited planet (no more precise control over position), pay your credits, and you get something similar to the Carrier interface to purchase services for it ... well, that's all things the game already does, just in a new combination and purpose. Maybe that would be practical.
(Would it make everyone who'd asked for base building happy? No, but nor would any other implementation - player's visions of what base building would be for are too contradictory for that)

That could fit into the narrative of repopulating systems devastated by the Thargoid War.

 

[Rat Catcher]

If the base building blocks do not include straight sections, circular structures and perhaps cylinders with 1 flat end and one round end, there will be incessant complaints by the building fans that they can't erect their ideal building...

 

[Nowski]

have i missed something...... or am i being way to pessimistic? but is base building or dense atmospheric planet landings or even vast explorable deralicts even remotely likely as the elite feature update this year?

All we know really is that it's "an exciting new addition to the core gameplay" and what Arf relayed from the first Frontier stream this year,

• "brand new feature",
• "not a rework"
• "super cool"
• "full scope" seen a few months before Jan 2024
• "really really cool"
• "going to be really really fun" for players to do
• "Oh yes!"
• "have to give time to sit down and go through and talk about what this featture entails, what you'll be able to do with it, the new stuff that goes in with it"

(full Arf quote)

So there's definitely material to project your base-building, planet type etc. dreams onto there, but it could also be something more on the level of a hover scooter or tractor beam..

Most likely is something in between IMO, no idea what but very excited to find out!

 

[aRJay]

If the base building blocks do not include straight sections, circular structures and perhaps cylinders with 1 flat end and one round end, there will be incessant complaints by the building fans that they can't erect their ideal building...

There should be domes or spherical structures as well.

I think @Ian Doncaster has it right that it would be just a rehash of the FC build mechanic using Odyssey settlement models and a few changes of wording in the UI, which would be a shame as it would be nice for the base builders to have to be more hands on and supportive of their toy than we have to be with an FC.

 

[Koma Pahu]

There should be domes or spherical structures as well.

I think @Ian Doncaster has it right that it would be just a rehash of the FC build mechanic using Odyssey settlement models and a few changes of wording in the UI, which would be a shame as it would be nice for the base builders to have to be more hands on and supportive of their toy than we have to be with an FC.

As any settlement would be a permanent feature of that planet, you could tie it into the BGS and PP 2.0.

Yes, it could be a bit of a one-time-action but it could also be a serious credit sink with long term engagement as you upgrade it over time.

 

[Cosmo]

All we know really is that it's "an exciting new addition to the core gameplay" and what Arf relayed from the first Frontier stream this year,

• "brand new feature",
• "not a rework"
• "super cool"
• "full scope" seen a few months before Jan 2024
• "really really cool"
• "going to be really really fun" for players to do
• "Oh yes!"
• "have to give time to sit down and go through and talk about what this featture entails, what you'll be able to do with it, the new stuff that goes in with it"

(full Arf quote)

1. "brand new feature" = something that's currently not in-game.
2. "what you'll be able to do with it" = maybe build structures
3. "the new stuff that goes in with it" = maybe building materials and schematics

If it's new planet types then he probably wouldn't have said "new stuff that goes in with it".

There should be domes or spherical structures as well.

I think @Ian Doncaster has it right that it would be just a rehash of the FC build mechanic using Odyssey settlement models and a few changes of wording in the UI, which would be a shame as it would be nice for the base builders to have to be more hands on and supportive of their toy than we have to be with an FC.

Seconded, base building needs deep customization like PC and PZ.

 

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

Hi

......
but new planet types with new terrains, or base building...................... please let it be so but i would wager it is not happening - at least not without a fully fledged paid update.

(currently the terrain generation cant even build caves on the surface its mostly just a height map)

A fully fledged paid update........another thought here...one question that springs to mind, how much actual development is there already, whether shelved, still in some sort of development, or maybe not even started.
As regards a paid update, personally I'd gladly pay...l was going to put a price in £'s, but then thought that would depend on what's included in it. My initial figure might shock some people...or not. Lets just say it would start around the price of some of the more modern game titles.... MS Flight simulator 2024?...maybe...at a push.

What the new feature should be?...yeah, I keep thinking about this, there's a whole load of stuff I'd really like to see added to this game, so just one of several new features I have in mind would probably cut it. I...don't...want...more...Thargoid...stuff though. Unless of course there's more interaction in a more constructive way, and not destructive.

Hmmm...MSFS...Yeah, Imagine the same sort of detail for just one planet (or Moon) in Odyssey, now there's a thought
Anyhow, carry on...I've got some mined metals & minerals to offload now, I'll just boot up the INARA site and see what's on the best price menu today.
(I was going to creosote the garden shed...pah!...it's wet and miserable, playing this game seems the best option today I think. )

Jack

 

[varonica]

have i missed something...... or am i being way to pessimistic? but is base building or dense atmospheric planet landings or even vast explorable deralicts even remotely likely as the elite feature update this year?

My personal opinion, not base building, that's a big update that will probably come as a separate paid update, if ever. Same with dense atmospheric planets, major update, but also not new, it has been done in previous versions of Elite. Explorable derelicts I would say possible, EVA would be entirely new and not seen in other versions of Elite either, and since we have the legs part already it just needs the EVA and derelict models to be worked on. Could be flying through gas giants, tech is already there for that really with lagrange clouds and the clouds around titans.