When you don't log in because you remember there is more grinding to do...

[Old Duck]

I probably should have never set my goals on taking my Vulture, The Ronin on Distant Worlds 2. Now I must get all the stuff to upgrade its FSD sufficiently for my goals, which involve doing the same thing over and over and over and over again.

Your OP title actually reminds me of No Man's Sky, which is a game I enjoyed while waiting for ED to come out on PS4, but you can't even make a single hyperspace jump without grinding to create fuel for your drive. In a game with 18 million trillion quintillion star systems, it would be nice if NMS had fuel scoop technology like ED does

So I guess my point is NMS was like a bootcamp for grinding to me, so I'm more tolerate of certain grinds in ED. I mean, once you get your FSD engineered, you're done! In NMS you have to grind for consumables like fuel, which means you are never done grinding, and that just sucks after awhile.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Your OP title actually reminds me of No Man's Sky, which is a game I enjoyed while waiting for ED to come out on PS4, but you can't even make a single hyperspace jump without grinding to create fuel for your drive. In a game with 18 million trillion quintillion star systems, it would be nice if NMS had fuel scoop technology like ED does

So I guess my point is NMS was like a bootcamp for grinding to me, so I'm more tolerate of certain grinds in ED. I mean, once you get your FSD engineered, you're done! In NMS you have to grind for consumables like fuel, which means you are never done grinding, and that just sucks after awhile.

Urgh, that's the one thing about NMS that puts me off so much.. knowing that I have to spend the majority of my time looking for resources to make those damn hyperspace fuel cells. It makes no sense that stations wouldn't sell them... I mean.. really.. so every single person travelling the galaxy needs to go down to planets and grind resources to make more fuel cells? ... I suppose that explains why EVERY. SINGLE. DAMN. PLANET. has an one of the three alien factions on it. :/

 

[WR3ND]

I have to say that of all the possible 'grinds' that the game presents, if you're honestly only looking at engineering an FSD and it prompts that reaction you should probably give the rest of engineering a very wide berth.

Under both the new and old engineering systems the only thing that presents any difficulty mind-numbing repetition is getting the datamined wake exceptions.

OK a quick trip to Dav's Hope and a few relogs is repetition too but it's 10-15 minutes of a job to collect the chemical processors, distilleries and manipulators you'll need there, either directly or by collecting enough other crap to trade for them. Then you just need to find a planet with phosphorous, manganese and arsenic (not hard) and do a bit of driving - it's not going to take you more than 15-20 minutes to find the arsenic you need and you'll have enough of the other two to fill a boat by the time you've got it.

Yeah, I have traditionally, but see some of my followup posts in this thread. It's not just the one FSD I'm working on, that just happens to be the main motivation behind it, and eventually it'd be nice to take advantage of these very capable upgrades. The gameplay around it on the other hand hasn't been as inspiring for me, so I'm kind of in a self-made purgatory of sorts and trying to find out how I want to best go about playing the game.

I was just letting off some steam with the OP as well and I'm sure I'll get back at it sooner or later, leastwise to enjoy the aspects of this game that I do find compelling.

 

[WR3ND]

Everyone different. The 5k to Palin nearly made me uninstall and took me a week to do. But I have fully engineered to G5 over 10 ships, then I did it again when 3.0 dropped. Don't find it a grind at all.

Yeah, I get that. It's kind of funny how different people's enjoyment of this game can be, and at least it offers a little something for all of us, at least those of us who willingly choose to play it, of course.

 

[WR3ND]

Youre using a Vulture to go exploring? Seriously?

Why not? I like exploration such as it is (though of course I hope for more gameplay for it in the future), and a Vulture is just as capable at it as anything else for basic exploration. Racing places and exploring the outermost fringes when compared to other Commanders though, not so much.

 

[Red Anders]

Yeah, I have traditionally, but see some of my followup posts in this thread. It's not just the one FSD I'm working on, that just happens to be the main motivation behind it, and eventually it'd be nice to take advantage of these very capable upgrades. The gameplay around it on the other hand hasn't been as inspiring for me, so I'm kind of in a self-made purgatory of sorts and trying to find out how I want to best go about playing the game.

I was just letting off some steam with the OP as well and I'm sure I'll get back at it sooner or later, leastwise to enjoy the aspects of this game that I do find compelling.

Fair comment.

I will say as someone who has fully engineered an Anaconda, Orca, Asp X and DBX with properly optimised exploration builds, that by far the worst aspect is the sheer amount of proto heat/light stuff you need to do the various lightweight mods , all of which are unfortunately amongst the G5 materials that remain resolutely gated behind high grade USSs - easily the single most mind-numbing aspect of the whole engineering process. Even trading via material brokers doesn't alleviate it much due to the high exchange rates when you're either trading up, or trading across material families.

A lot of engineering is now relatively quick and painless compared to the original model but making a fully lightweight explorer does seem to have fallen between the cracks a bit in terms of benefiting from the recent changes.

 

[WR3ND]

I wouldn't bother with the Guardian module if I were you. Totally no needed. You have plenty of time for DW2 (i'm going too) and I intend to bring a Krait if its any good. I will have to engineer it as much as possible, but I still won't grind for it. I will carry on playing how I usually play. Plenty of time to upgrade the ship in bits and pieces. As long as my FSD is grade 5 (and that i probably one of the easiest to get), that is all I need.

Basically take your time, don't rush, enjoy the journey as much as you can. Try to combine activities too.

Good advice, and yeah, I probably won't bother with the Guardian content such as it is. I was just trying to get maxing out my FSDs out of the way, since I was working on upgrading them more anyway before getting back to my usual style of play.

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed some of it, but it seems like an uphill chore to me. At the rate I'm going though, I may need all the time I can get. We'll see.

Cheers.

 

[sinisalo]

OP, you write reasonable words. I can't fault you, truth is, if you're not in to it, you're not in to it. Nothing wrong with that. Being self-aware enough to see this is credit to you.

I also agree with the sentiment that there should be effort for reward. As to whether FDev have chosen wisely the mechanics of it all, I'll leave that for others to debate.

The conundrum springs from wanting the reward but being averse to the effort, whether it's burnout, or perceived weakness of the requirements, it all adds up to frustration. Personally, I think that occasional breaks are the best course, go play a different game, or take up whittling, or learn the tuba. When you come back you might have a newfound enthusiasm for the 'grind' of it all.

I am sure I am alone in this, but I think engineering is too easy. Yep, I know. But things like material traders and remote workshops make it all too easy. I certainly take advantage of these services. Yes I do. But there's part of me that wishes that things were far more rare. Like a G5 FSD should require some outstanding achievement or insane luck to get what's required. You need 2x flux capacitors and they drop only 8,000 light years from Sol and at .0001% chance. So when you DO get one it's like hitting the lottery. This sort of thing would never fly with most of this player base, and is why material traders and remote workshops exist in the first place I reckon.

Admittedly I haven't engineered 20 ships. I have engineered 8 ships. It takes some effort, and there is a certain grind about it all I will agree. Perhaps one day I will just find myself saying screw it, don't feel like doing that again, in which case I'll probably just start module-swapping, which is it's own sort of grind innit?

If you've flown all over the galaxy in a Vulture you clearly aren't put off by a challenge. All you're missing is enthusiasm, if I may be so presumptive. Take a break and try again in a couple of weeks.

 

[playfuldreamer]

See my reply to the stream thread.

Like Riverside above replied, this is a fantastic response.

The problem isn't that the unlocks are "grindy," it's that the rewards do not make the activity worthwhile. Grind is just another word for repetition. But I wager most if not all of us would repeat the same activity over and over if we enjoyed the result (see: gambling, eating, procreation, etc.). This is what we see when we look at credit exploits and gold rushes. All it is is players doing the same thing FDev does as a business: seeking the highest return for the least effort. This will always be the case so long as progress is built upon obtaining ships which require credits which can only obtained thru repetitive activity.

Either the mode of progression needs to be changed or the rewards need to be sufficient to make the repetition palatable. They currently are not.

 

[WR3ND]

See my reply to the stream thread.

Well, yeah, I agree that there is a level which we can stomach for some things we want to accomplish, but I think there is a balance to be made with compelling content and a sense of player agency. With exploration, for example, each system holds the possibility for varied content in the form of different and potentially unique configurations and vantage points, so the work of repeatedly jumping between systems can be mitigated. Doing the same things over and over again for a further off goal and way of enjoying the game isn't as compelling to me, I suppose.

Credits for example aren't something I'm particularly interested in while playing the game and I don't devote much of my time to getting them. They're just a means to an end.

Even if they gave credits away for free, such as with the gems after the Dangerous Games, I wouldn't be particularly interested in them. I didn't bother getting any. It just comes down to what people find as compelling and meaningful content, I suppose, as well as variety.

 

[playfuldreamer]

Well, yeah, I agree that there is a level which we can stomach for some things we want to accomplish, but I think there is a balance to be made with compelling content and a sense of player agency. With exploration, for example, each system holds the possibility for varied content in the form of different and potentially unique configurations and vantage points, so the work of repeatedly jumping between systems can be mitigated. Doing the same things over and over again for a further off goal and way of enjoying the game isn't as compelling to me, I suppose.

Credits for example aren't something I'm particularly interested in while playing the game and I don't devote much of my time to getting them. They're just a means to an end.

Even if they gave credits away for free, such as with the gems after the Dangerous Games, I wouldn't be particularly interested in them. I didn't bother getting any. It just comes down to what people find as compelling and meaningful content, I suppose, as well as variety.

Absolutely. So, in that sense, Elite Dangerous could do a much better job of ensuring all activities have balanced effort vs reward structures. Currently there's a big debate about Guardian tech not being rewarding for the effort required, suggesting it's grindy and unfulfilling. If the rewards were scaled up, there's no doubt in my mind that much of the discontent would dwindle.

 

[WR3ND]

Absolutely. So, in that sense, Elite Dangerous could do a much better job of ensuring all activities have balanced effort vs reward structures. Currently there's a big debate about Guardian tech not being rewarding for the effort required, suggesting it's grindy and unfulfilling. If the rewards were scaled up, there's no doubt in my mind that much of the discontent would dwindle.

I don't think that is the best solution as it doesn't really address the player agency and variety of gameplay components of motivation. Gameplay, ideally, is enjoyable as part of the reward, not something to only be overcome for a reward.

Say I could jump 1,000 Lys with Guardian tech FSDs, I wouldn't really be more motivated to go out and work through the process of getting them. Actually, I would question why I bother playing a game with that sort of lack of balance and meaningful gameplay.

Rewards are a significant component, but not the only relevant and significant component to look at. It partly depends how you define rewards, and the gameplay itself should be rewarding to some extent at least. The experience should be part of the reward, even if parts of it are less compelling.

 

[playfuldreamer]

I don't think that is the best solution as it doesn't really address the player agency and variety of gameplay components of motivation. Gameplay, ideally, is enjoyable as part of the reward, not something to only be overcome for a reward.

Say I could jump 1,000 Lys with Guardian tech FSDs, I wouldn't really be more motivated to go out and work through the process of getting them. Actually, I would question why I bother playing a game with that sort of lack of balance and meaningful gameplay.

Rewards are a significant component, but not the only relevant and significant component to look at. It partly depends how you define rewards, and the gameplay itself should be rewarding to some extent at least. The experience should be part of the reward, even if parts of it are less compelling.

Therein lies the issue with Elite: the gameplay itself is not rewarding (see: jump, honk, jump). So you're right that just increasing the rewards wouldn't necessarily solve the underlying issue, but it would at least make the repetition bearable in the short term while the team designs more compelling gameplay loops.

 

[WR3ND]

To be fair, it does seem that people are often motivated by tangible progress in the game more than I am. To me, it's mostly just a means to an end of enjoying other aspects of the game.

 

[C4R1TON]

I play more on my xbox cmdr and keep him in the bubble. The other day I decided to take my PC cmdr out to the pleiades and park by a meta alloy site. I figured I'd just load his cargo racks up with metas and sell them for the big profit. I signed on, dropped my SRV, stopped at the stalks and changed my mind. Was like meh! I decided to just fly back to my home system, collecting scans along the way and then do some BH. At least that's a little more random than harvesting metas.

 

[Bertrand Du Guesclin]

Thanks for this thread OP, some interesting views were discussed, and it's a nice change to see some organised thoughts instead of the usual "TOOMUCHGRIND,I'MOUT" threads.

I've been in the same situation as yourself more than once. For a good 8 months, I only logged in maybe once a week, for the sole purpose of opening the galaxy map, and check my faction's status. If nothing was happening, I'd close the game and play something else.

When 3.0 dropped, I wen't back in to investigate the changes, try a few things. I had a tiny objective, to build a stealth Sidewinder, no shields, a railgun and a modded beam laser to keep the ship cool.
That was a silly objective, but it only took me a few minutes to outfit by salvaging some of my modules, and engineering the rest to tier 1 or 2.
Then I could put that ship in arms way, and I had a good laugh trying to take on a Terrorist Leader for a wing assassination mission.

I was sort of hooked again, but I needed materials, so I outfitted a collector limpet to most of my ships, and I started to do some of the new missions, picking every material I came across with my limpets.
After a few sessions of random activities supporting my faction, and lot of research on third party tools, I figured I had enough mats to finish upgrading my Corvette, with the sole purpose of being able to solo Elite wing assassinations (not too much of a challenge, but good enough for me).

And that was fun!
I mean, the upgrade process itself was a chore. With the help of a good old pen and paper, I had planned my upgrade process, taking into account material traders and engineer bases.
Then I had to fly a Corvette with 17ly of jump range all over the bubble for the better part of an evening.
But after that, I could massacre those terrorists, and that was my reward.

So yeah, in the end what motivated me to start the game again was to have a quick objective, that I could enjoy right away, and it motivated me to do bigger projects.
I'll keep playing for now, until I hit my next motivation-killer

 

[WR3ND]

Logged back in today for maybe an hour and got back at it. Have to admit my body feels like it's physically protesting it. Feeling numb and having a little vertigo. Very strange. Makes me want to get some beer and listen to some upbeat music or something. [weird]

I'm out at Dav's Hope running the gauntlet of tedium. Wish me luck. [knocked out]

 

[Henri]

hahahaha the funny thing is that people think that honk scoop jumping is more fun in a group than it is alone hahahahahahaha!

 

[Iron Duke]

Gotta agree with OP. I used to play every day until 3.0 dropped. I hardly even log in at all now, as the motivation to play has all but gone.

 

[WR3ND]

hahahaha the funny thing is that people think that honk scoop jumping is more fun in a group than it is alone hahahahahahaha!

I mostly just like the idea of taking my Vulture along on DW2 since it's the main exploration ship I use in the game. I'm usually out exploring by myself. It isn't the most engaging of activities, but I do tend to like it at least somewhat, checking out the various configurations of systems and looking for some interesting ones along the way.

Actually, I tend to find exploration expeditions a bit more trying than exploring by myself. I suppose that's because I can set my own goals and pace for it more then. Expeditions do help motivate me more in other ways though. Six of one and a half dozen of the other.