When you don't log in because you remember there is more grinding to do...

[Schmack]

I probably should have never set my goals on taking my Vulture, The Ronin on Distant Worlds 2. Now I must get all the stuff to upgrade its FSD sufficiently for my goals, which involve doing the same thing over and over and over and over again. Now I hear of the Guardian module FSDs through the grapevine...

Am I kidding myself? This isn't the game I signed up for, but if I want to pretend to hang with the big boys, this is what I must deal with. There isn't a better way other than just giving up the ghost and taking my Cobra or the like. If you want to hang, you have to put in the work, but that isn't really why I play this game.

It's my choice, and I know it, but knowing the option is there, I'm driven to want to achieve it. The cost, however, seems to be more than I'm willing to stomach, so I'm at a bit of a loss. Maybe I just don't have what it takes.

I haven't been able to bring myself to login in more than a month. This isn't the game I wanted to play.

What a strange predicament I find myself in.

I think you just ran out of stuff to do. It's like me saying "I've been cooped up in this house for weeks, and yesterday I was going to count the carpet fibers in every room, that's my goal now, but for some reason I cannot bring myself to enter those rooms because I know it's such a grind..."

Dude, get out of the house. No one wants to engineer a Vulture to explore or whatever Distant Worlds 2 is. The people who take sidewinders across the galaxy because they can simply don't have anything else to do. It's not a predicament to have a life outside of a game that you finished a long time ago.

 

[kofeyh]

about 150 million of minecraft players would disagree (not to mention mod creators and players) ... but then minecraft players can actually impact minecraft world.

For sure; but the game (minecraft) actively gets out of your way, you can have a permanent impact, it is endlessly mod-able (which is what actually really gave it life) and has a very creative element, that tends to reward exploration and discovery. This has no equivalence in Elite, which gets in the way, is not endlessly mod-able, is needy as hell, doens't really reward discovery (unless it's working out the next credit exploit or how to break the farming cycle) and doesn't have any creative element.

I really like Elite, but its not even close. Unlike Minecraft, creative approaches tend to get rapidly shut down as "unintended", even if they keep happening (which suggests there's merit in developing that into something valuable within the game).

point: maybe you don't need to be fed with reasons or context, but would find plenty of reasons and context of your own if given tools.

"How do you treat boredom? With ambition."

This is something I wish Frontier would think about, when developing Elite. Because there's no reason to do anything. There's motivation, in the form of module classes and ships and engineering. But that's not the same thing. You can go very far in hand-holding, for sure. But you can also go very far in the opposite direction, too.

Frontier has figured they can keep people engaged for thousands of hours simply repeating tasks alone. And this has worked, I won't argue because one really can't. But it is pretty hollow. Adding some context and flavour to that, doesn't mean the grind goes away, it just becomes more palatable and engaging.

 

[znôrt]

That is just like... 1.25 work days doing things that one does not want to, which are mind-numbingly boring, tedious, and generally not fun. Why would anyone want to do such a thing to get something in a videogame that is supposed to be fun? This certainly requires very special mindset...

this one:

I probably should have never set my goals on taking my Vulture, The Ronin on Distant Worlds 2

it's not that uncommon. we humans love complications and contradictions. and complaining! oooh, complaining!!!! [haha]

 

[znôrt]

"How do you treat boredom? With ambition."

This is something I wish Frontier would think about, when developing Elite. Because there's no reason to do anything.

well, they thought about one: 'to boldly go ...'. and that one they got right.

the problem is we are a generation spoiled with star trek, because the vast universe is actually mostly empty, and crossing it would actually be the most boring thing imaginable!

yes, ofc i get it. i can't help but think they would have so much to gain if they weren't such obsessive control freaks about the game and left a few doors, even a few windows, open to the players. but not even a peephole. no trading, no economy, no real fighting, no owning anything, no building anything ... i get they are too afraid real player actions would destroy their precious narrative and aesthetics, but that's a big opportunity missed that would cost them very little.

it also means that any context/goal you will ever get will be similarly linear and constrained, thus not very far going.

we should draw something really big and obscene on eddiscovery, maybe they'd get the message!

oh wait, we drew the elite logo, in painstaking detail ...

 

[WR3ND]

...

It makes for a pretty enjoyable and effective exploration ship for how I generally use it, so in that regard it isn't a contradiction. Getting it out to Beagle Point on the other hand is a little outside of its general intended role. Maybe a bit of shortsighted arrogance on my part, but I'm getting back at working on getting stuff for it as needed now at least.

The OP was just expressing some frustration and a little irony on my lack of motivation as much as anything else, not really meant as a complaint about the game, which I presumably choose to play on my own recognizance, at least when I do play it.

Could the game do a better job of engaging players? I think there's likely an augment to be made for it in the minutia somewhere, but that's not really what I was aiming to address here. That being said, I suppose it is somewhat of an important discussion (as some players seem to feel rather strongly about it), or at least something Frontier might want to reevaluate.

 

[WR3ND]

Honestly? Grade 5 FSD is about as good as it gets; the Guardian FSD module had originally massively broken range (there's a surprise) iirc and was removed for "not working as intended" reasons. Just.. don't think about it. I reckon The Ronin will truck along real nice with a Grade 5 FSD, particularly if you can manage to wangle some light weight modules? That little vulture will surely go places and have some pretty swell adventures. If you can join others for a time? Bonus.

My primary commander has taken an Orca out, the Quantum Leap, ship ID 'OH BOY' (because of cause it is) and it's been a blast, really. It's not an Asp (dear god that tree-trunk as a dashboard vibe gets old) or an Anaconda (hang on, I missed the planet, I'll just orbit the system while I turn this slug around).

57.00 LY capable; not the best, but it opens up some options. It's fun to fly, though; and I can still boost it over 400m/s through canyons. Now that's spicy exploration. Between that, and derping around in a recently reset account, I make do.

But I'd be lying if I said I still play as much as I have done; or have as much motivation.

"Stay on target."

Thanks, mate.

It helps to remember why I'm bothering to do this in the first place.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

It's my choice, and I know it, but knowing the option is there, I'm driven to want to achieve it. The cost, however, seems to be more than I'm willing to stomach, so I'm at a bit of a loss.

You have to change this to go back to how you played before... you can't win against that much grind, and it was actually better when you knew you couldn't because of this.

There's a chance you'll lose elite if you don't, and its not worth it.

Can you recycle old fsds? I'm still using a old modules 47% and above without caring. Keeping them legacy is a good way to not go near wanting to complete it because you can.

Another approach is instead of a maximum, consider what jump range you would be happy with, and go with that.

A poor example is for bubble taxis i set a minimum of 50 lys thats it, i don't care about the module. Long range exploration i like over 60, again, not caring about the module as long as i hit my logical target. For the guardian fsd's, its not about the torture of mix maxing, but i really want to make my corvette multipurpose so will stick to that. Apologies for these extreme examples, but i imagine if you're taking a vulture you'll be thinking in terms of it.

If you want to push a vulture outside what it should be doing, you have to respect there will be work in that target.

 

[znôrt]

It makes for a pretty enjoyable and effective exploration ship for how I generally use it, so in that regard it isn't a contradiction.

it indeed is because the stock vulture has a crappy jump range. you can explore in whatever you want (eagle anyone?), but you can not follow the pace of a group expedition with a vulture ... unless you engineer it, of course.

and i find it totally fine that you do! things like these bizarre ideas are pretty much the little room for original and personal decisions this game allows. imo possibly the only one positive thing engineers brought to the game (besides spoiling everything else about ships).

also, getting a g5 long range fsd isn't really such a big deal, go for it. (let's talk the day you for some reason want to mod all internals, five different hardpoints and six utility slots for combat! )

 

[WR3ND]

...

Sound advice. Well, I'm back at it for now at least. A few beers now and then and some good tunes seem to help in that regard. Just getting myself to log back in was half the challenge. I know, it sounds kind of stupid, and maybe it is.

Cheers.

 

[WR3ND]

...

I don't usually go exploring with groups of people, so that is part of the exception here with getting it to Beagle Point. Also, in terms of systems explored per time, the ship is quite capable without needing too large of a jump range. I don't use it as a racer nor to reach the outermost fringes of the galaxy when compared to other players.

But yeah, getting it out to Beagle Point on DW2 is well outside of its optimal role. I fully acknowledge that. It's just the ship I want to take along since I enjoy using it so much otherwise as my main exploration ship. It just fits me like a glove or a well broken in pair of boots.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

about 150 million of minecraft players would disagree (not to mention mod creators and players) ... but then minecraft players can actually impact minecraft world.

point: maybe you don't need to be fed with reasons or context, but would find plenty of reasons and context of your own if given tools.

The thing is, we can already. The main issue is that you really can't see it apart from a few lines of text underneath a faction.

If those changes were obvious with graphical representations and NPC behaviour then the game would feel a lot more interesting and alive.

 

[WR3ND]

The thing is, we can already. The main issue is that you really can't see it apart from a few lines of text underneath a faction.

If those changes were obvious with graphical representations and NPC behaviour then the game would feel a lot more interesting and alive.

Along these lines, I think something like a dynamic economy for things like exploration data for different bodies with different mineral resources sold to different factions and different systems would go a long way to help too. It isn't so much the value of the data overall that I'm concerned with. I'm not so worried about profits and credits in terms of progressing in the game, just making it feel like you and others are playing an active and needed role in that regard – Commander agency.

Exploration is just one of my main ways of playing this game, but I'm sure it could apply elsewhere as well. This might also help serve to somewhat self-regulate the rinse and repeat credit "exploits" in the game and help to keep things interesting, making the game feel less "gamey" and more of an active participating role in a "living, breathing galaxy."

I really like the idea of being able to do missions for the various Engineers for ways of being able to upgrade your ships with them or at least gain rank with them. This could likewise tie into the BGS on top of what we have now.

This sounds like a game I'd like to play.

Don't get me wrong, in general I like playing this game well enough as it is, but I know there could be so much more than "the grind" for progression or even a more articulated sense of player initiated purpose, if more of the mechanics were there to help support it.

 

[o2thaZ]

Have the same issues.
Cant get myself to boot. And if i do i spend 5 mins in dock and decide to do another round of plunkbat.
The burnout is a fact and iam not coming back to atleast q4.

For the ones still having fun..good for you.
Cheers cmdrs.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Along these lines, I think something like a dynamic economy for things like exploration data for different bodies with different mineral resources sold to different factions and different systems would go a long way to help too. It isn't so much the value of the data overall that I'm concerned with. I'm not so worried about profits and credits in terms of progressing in the game, just making it feel like you and others are playing an active and needed role in that regard – Commander agency.

My main issue is when I got a station/system in a specidic state such as war, famine, plague it looksno different to a system that is in boom. They only way you know the difference is when you see it underneath a faction name.

Make all those different states graphically and NPC obvious, this well then give a bit more meaning to the missions available, thus giving you a purpose to do these missions other then credit gain.

For me that is the main thing thatbis missing. After/if that gets added then they can add more complex scenarios.

What has caused the famine, a natural disaster on the nearest earthlike planet has caused it. The surrounding systems new food pellets or whatever they are to survive, the system with the earthlike has enough food for themselves but need machinery to help fix the natural disaster. You are given a choice on who to help.

Slowly make it deeper with more choices on what you can do to help.

That is just one example.

 

[WR3ND]

My main issue is when I got a station/system in a specidic state such as war, famine, plague it looksno different to a system that is in boom. They only way you know the difference is when you see it underneath a faction name.

Make all those different states graphically and NPC obvious, this well then give a bit more meaning to the missions available, thus giving you a purpose to do these missions other then credit gain.

For me that is the main thing thatbis missing. After/if that gets added then they can add more complex scenarios.

What has caused the famine, a natural disaster on the nearest earthlike planet has caused it. The surrounding systems new food pellets or whatever they are to survive, the system with the earthlike has enough food for themselves but need machinery to help fix the natural disaster. You are given a choice on who to help.

Slowly make it deeper with more choices on what you can do to help.

That is just one example.

I kind of hate to distill it down to this, but it reminds me of the "mile wide and an inch deep" stereotype this game often gets.

There's such an amazing framework here with so much potential it's a shame to not see it expanded on and refined in these sort of ways.

We're a few years in now, so truth be told, I'm expecting less and less along these lines as things go on. I do hold out some hope that Frontier will surprise me and steer the development back toward these sort of improvements.

 

[kofeyh]

I kind of hate to distill it down to this, but it reminds me of the "mile wide and an inch deep" stereotype this game often gets.

The game actually has quite a lot of depth. There's a lot going on with the BGS, there are a huge number of levers in the game, actually. The essential problem, is that there is very little to help you understand what many of them do and the game (unfortunately) has a very very ordinary approach to communicating concepts, context and interest, to the player (ie, it simply doesn't bother).

It hides, obfuscates, stalls and gets in the way of really going anywhere near any of the levers. And this isn't really a 'skill cap' thing; it's simply the developer not recognising the value in engagement, over a tendency to fret it's oversharing so best darn well hide every lever and make it incalculably difficult to understand much of it at all because what if players new how even some of this works?

If there's one thing Elite will never, ever be guilty of, it's oversharing ideas and concepts and context, information and interest, to any player at all, ever. There is so much room for improvement there, it's actually hilarious.

Of all the things I've ever had people talk to me about, when streaming elite; it's the understanding of why n happened, or what does x do or what even is y. The game, amazing as it is, is just plain lousy at the communication of really anything at all (wait, stand corrected - anything at all unless it's the system name which appears four times in the UI).

I don't think we can expect this to change though; it hasn't really budged over the last 5 years. So, it is what it is.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I kind of hate to distill it down to this, but it reminds me of the "mile wide and an inch deep" stereotype this game often gets.

There's such an amazing framework here with so much potential it's a shame to not see it expanded on and refined in these sort of ways.

We're a few years in now, so truth be told, I'm expecting less and less along these lines as things go on. I do hold out some hope that Frontier will surprise me and steer the development back toward these sort of improvements.

That's the thing. The depth is there, it's just extremely difficult to see. Hence the reason why I would like to see proper graphical representations of the different states, similar to how the evacuate/repair station mechanic works.

 

[WR3ND]

That's the thing. The depth is there, it's just extremely difficult to see. Hence the reason why I would like to see proper graphical representations of the different states, similar to how the evacuate/repair station mechanic works.

I hear you, and I agree. I also think there is the potential for more depth in these regards as well though, like with a dynamic economy and different ways of going about and interacting with the game, such as with the Engineers. They seem like mostly a fairly contrived means to an end than a way to interact with NPCs in the game on a more human level.

Some improvements have been made, so I have some hope for more.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I hear you, and I agree. I also thing there is the potential for more depth in these regards as well though, like with a dynamic economy and different ways of going about and interacting with the game, such as with the Engineers. The seem like mostly a means to an end than a way to interact with NPCs in the game on a more human level.

Totally agree. It certainly can go deeper.

 

[NeilF]

CQC is fun because it's pure and balanced PvP.

And Elite CQC is the only PvP rank in the game.

But let's not start this discussion because there are plenty of CQC threads about it.

Yes & no. It is indeed fun for being pure PvP. But more importantly it's also fun because it's simple balanced gameplay. ie: You're not in a fighter with someone else in an FDL engineered to hell. Add to this some variety of combat mechanics and environment, it's not surprising it makes generally for more interesting combat than the core game.

Hence the suggestion the core game would benefit from fighter based gameplay in it. ie: You undertake a mission to holo-me to a location to defend/attack a location/asset. And if this could be offered at a few key Powerplay locations or in a CG so full on PvP was available via it in the core game? All the better!

CQC (as a stand alone game) is yet another example of a misguided and (basically) wasted develoment IMHO. And there's a scarily long list of them!