Why are player complaining about grinding?

[RandomGun]

In some new 2.4 threads player are fearing they have to grind for the new modules which are coming to fight the Thargoids.

I can't understand, why grinding is branded as such a bad thing by so many players out there.

My guess: some may not like any grinding at all and others do not like the type or amount of grinding ED already has.

I don't mind grinding in general, but I don't like how it is done in Engineers, Powerplay and Synthesis. IMO, grinding Engineers has too randomized process, has too randomized outcome, is too detached from normal gameplay (i.e. doing X doesn't help me to do X better) and breaks immersion way too much (or way way way too much).

I liked how (some) grinding was done in Skyrim and Oblivion. If I used my swords, or tools or strengh I would become better swordsman, tool user and stronger. Simple, predictable, immersive. I did use mods slow down advancement because I'm not after "instant gratification" (because it wouldn't be gratifying).

.... then some other related thoughts.

About grinding... Grinding is an activity comparable to using a physical grinding wheel. Whether you like your time at grinding wheel or not does not change the activity. If you are 1) doing simple repetitive tasks 2) to achieve or gain something you are grinding. Grinding is not "in your mind".

About money... In ED money is relatively easy to come by and you can gain it by doing whatever you want to do. You may grind for money if you wan't to speed up the process, but it is optional.

 

[verminstar]

i reckon it is more that folk want engineers to be more like engineers, rather than some enchantment monkey off <insert generic rpgmmo game here>

when i took my sports car (pre child, on a 1.5l diesel now ) for a bit of a tweak under the hood, there was not some random roulette wheel, there was ZERO chance of the mechanic saying..."good news, whilst polishing your ports and improving your airflow we got some crazy sideeffect that means your car wont show up on speed cameras.... I totally did not see that coming!.

perhaps there should be a small amount of RNG hidden under the hood for the variance in the parts supplied (just like real life) but it should be fairly predictable what sort of ball park the mod would be in, and any side effects should also be predictable based on the type, and quality of materials supplied.

but this is not a complaint about grind imo... its a complaint about plausibility and jarring game mechanics where logic seemingly went out of the window because "videogame".

Ive used the same example because Im also a lifelong modified car enthusiast...and none of the engineers or mechanics I have ever used have relied on luck...not a single one of them. If a mechanic told me they couldnt guarantee a result, Id walk away and find another mechanic who could while the "lucky mechanic" would almost certainly go out of business in no time flat.

Yet we are supposed to just accept that in the future, upgrades to our pride and joy is based on a roulette wheel? Please...pull the other one, its got little bells on ^

I can grind with the best of them...its the rng nature that gets me and that is the sole reason why I avoid them not because I dont wanna grind ^

 

[Jason Lightning]

Exactly. I expect my Engineers to offer me a specification of improvement even if it is say between 10-12%, as opposed to the totally random we currently get.

As for the gathering of materials I am quite happy with that, as it makes me do things I would not normally, such as mine for painite, rank up with the Alliance (who are they anyway).

Yeah gathering I'd be fine with so long as I know I'm getting a definitive end result.

The Alliance is a lore faction that theoretically exists ingame, but have yet to do anything meaningful yet or actually make their own ships.

 

[lemny]

I partially agree to the problems with the RNG at the engineers.
It could be a bit annoying if you already have a descent mod and try to roll for a bit better outcome.
I did it 50+ times for my FSD range in my Conda without results.

I don't suggest to remove the RNG, but I would like to see a system where the additional rolls on a already modded Module are between the actual stats and the best possible outcome.
With enough tries we could get near perfect results, but there is still ever so small room for a better roll.

EDIT: I would have also no problem with it, if these "special" rolls cost 3,5 or 10 times the amount of materials as the normal rolls. This would guarantee a progression and a reward feeling and would be a bit more fun and less frustrating.

 

[WindWpn]

I too enjoy the "grind" aka game. It simply how ED is played, and I hope there is never a change to make it "easier" to make achieving those goals faster.

Current state: I now have enough credits to finally comfortably purchase a Python. Looking fwd to the "grind" to both spec up the modules (earn more credits for costs), as well as the engineering material needs to spec it up. Its what ED is, and enjoy it!

 

[Vorxian]

Ah, therein lies the problem, your expectations. Because the reality did not meet your expectations, you define having to play again as a grind. It is your expectations that are at fault. There's nothing to suggest that pulling the lever should progress you except your expectation that it should be so.

I'd argue that my expectations aren't unrealistic. I spent time and effort to get materials or minerals, return to an engineer that then gives me a downgrade? We play to progress somehow. What's the point in me doing a mission for someone, then; being worse off for it? It's baffling.

 

[MarkAusten]

Lottery system, luck based gameplay, time-waster.

It's a system that is the very opposite of what 'engineering' should be, yet apparently we are expected to clap our hands and pretend that it's all good and fun.

The engineering of highly complex systems is never without a random element, just ask anyone working on racing engines. The trick is always to reduce the random part to as small a range as possible.

 

[MarkAusten]

I'd argue that my expectations aren't unrealistic. I spent time and effort to get materials or minerals, return to an engineer that then gives me a downgrade? We play to progress somehow. What's the point in me doing a mission for someone, then; being worse off for it? It's baffling.

Why not? I was under the impression that the engineers were a bit "special" and that their mods were somewhat experimental. So, with your first rolls, remember you now get 3 goes, the likelihood of getting the progression you seek is high. Having accepted that roll and then trying to improve it, well now the odds are not so much in your favour and so on.

I see that as entirely acceptable.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

In some new 2.4 threads player are fearing they have to grind for the new modules which are coming to fight the Thargoids.

I can't understand, why grinding is branded as such a bad thing by so many players out there.

In an huge sandbox like ED, you can't generate one unique experience after another and fill hundreds if not thousands of hours with it.
If you want to be able to get the an A-rated, fully engineered Anaconda without grinding, then you would be there in 10 to 20 hours... and then what?
Grinding is the only thing to keep player occupied for long periods of time.

Wow! You give almost all the answers to yourself.

- The RNGneers grind is terrible and it splits the community even further.

- You generate one non-unique experience after another as it's always the same

- Keeping players "busy" has nothing to do with fun, meaningful and intelligent, diverse gameplay. It's repetitive, it's dull and brutally boring.

If a players mind is so limited that running in a wheel like a lab rat is fun for him/her, well ... then this player base has fun. Sorry, not me.
The game has nothing to offer more than that at the moment. Repititon rules. The downside of procedurally generated content. You don't see that. It's really fun for you?
If a game needs that "Just imagine the rest which isn't there" element, then something is wrong. It's 2017 now. In 1984, you needed the imagination as Braben took the hardware to it's limit. Not more space for more. But these days ... ?

 

[RandomGun]

The engineering of highly complex systems is never without a random element, just ask anyone working on racing engines. The trick is always to reduce the random part to as small a range as possible.

Then why the random element is pretty much maximized in ED? Two F1 cars from the same engineer team perform pretty much the same. Two level 5 items from any ED engineer can be like a night and day.

 

[Jason Lightning]

Ive used the same example because Im also a lifelong modified car enthusiast...and none of the engineers or mechanics I have ever used have relied on luck...not a single one of them. If a mechanic told me they couldnt guarantee a result, Id walk away and find another mechanic who could while the "lucky mechanic" would almost certainly go out of business in no time flat.

Yet we are supposed to just accept that in the future, upgrades to our pride and joy is based on a roulette wheel? Please...pull the other one, its got little bells on ^

I can grind with the best of them...its the rng nature that gets me and that is the sole reason why I avoid them not because I dont wanna grind ^

The crazy differences in RNG are so ludicrously out of scope that calling it engineering is insulting to the profession.

Fun fact: you can get Rails with more than 50% thermal reduction (even when it's a mod that is supposed to have a heat penalty), or a low emissions roll that INCREASES your power output. The factored range is so large that you can't even say with certainty what you get, it's a very flawed system.

 

[MarkAusten]

Ive used the same example because Im also a lifelong modified car enthusiast...and none of the engineers or mechanics I have ever used have relied on luck...not a single one of them. If a mechanic told me they couldnt guarantee a result, Id walk away and find another mechanic who could while the "lucky mechanic" would almost certainly go out of business in no time flat.

Yet we are supposed to just accept that in the future, upgrades to our pride and joy is based on a roulette wheel? Please...pull the other one, its got little bells on ^

I can grind with the best of them...its the rng nature that gets me and that is the sole reason why I avoid them not because I dont wanna grind ^

But with your cars you will never get two results exactly the same and that's where the random variation comes in. The better the mechanic, the smaller the variation. Any old bod can soup up an engine to some degree, the better ones can do it better and faster. The really good ones (read F1 mechanics) can do it better faster and more reliably (read smaller variation) but the variation still exists.

But we are off topic again, I think.

Then why the random element is pretty much maximized in ED? Two F1 cars from the same engineer team perform pretty much the same. Two level 5 items from any ED engineer can be like a night and day.

Fair point.

 

[Vorxian]

Two level 5 items from any ED engineer can be like a night and day.

Yep it's quite:

Especially when you just went out for the 4th time for a material and mineral run!

 

[HBK]

IRL there is indeed some randomness in engineering ... in the design phase. In production there is almost no randomness.

I fail to see how RNGineers in the Elite universe would need to design (e.g.) a new shield reinforcement upgrade every time a CMDR comes to say hello.

TLDR: That's a bogus justification.

 

[Harmoniser]

I've tried not to grind, when I came back to ED, but at some point you can get sucked back into it. But that's inevitable with a game like this, same thing happened with Frontier. You just have to acknowledge that your doing it and find something different to do. I found doing missions is the best thing to do rather than specializing. However the game does not make it easy as my nomad approach to missions is hard due to having to grind out reputation in different systems.


Hopefully 3.0 will make the grindy elements less grindy by offering risk and reward into non-combat game mechanics as was originally set out in DDFs.

Hopefully over the years ahead planetary landings with more divers biomes will add to the variety. Although I suspect by then I'll have moved on to SC

 

[MarkAusten]

IRL there is indeed some randomness in engineering ... in the design phase. In production there is almost no randomness.

I fail to see how RNGineers in the Elite universe would need to design (e.g.) a new shield reinforcement upgrade every time a CMDR comes to say hello.

TLDR: That's a bogus justification.

Sorry to have to disagree with you here, most of the randomness come in the production process. I used to design and build SPC (Statistical Process Control) instrumentation with the sole purpose of trying to eliminate out-of-tolerance items using statistical methods. There's a whole industry whose sole purpose is to try and remove the random element from production.

 

[Vorxian]

To be fair.. if I took my car to the mechanic, and they gave it back to me running 35% worse...

I'd take it straight back, and make them fix it for FREE... That way my statutory rights shall not be infringed...

But yeah... if I take my car or motorbike to the garage and they made it worse... then they'd see it again in zero time.

 

[verminstar]

But with your cars you will never get two results exactly the same and that's where the random variation comes in. The better the mechanic, the smaller the variation. Any old bod can soup up an engine to some degree, the better ones can do it better and faster. The really good ones (read F1 mechanics) can do it better faster and more reliably (read smaller variation) but the variation still exists.

But we are off topic again, I think.




Fair point.

Ever had yer car remapped? The results are not random at all and are guaranteed...I left the workshop with it in writing or my money back. Skimming the heads...guaranteed results. Cleaning and refurbing the turbo...guaranteed results.

How many cars have ye had modified that ye think its random? Its really not although there is a margin of error allowed, but negative results would be a money back scenario...if not, it ends up in the claims courts. Thats how real life works and thats how car modifications work in the modern world...done by real engineers not voodoo witch doctors ^

Its not realistic...its silly and inane mechanics which arent in any way believable. Its saying our progression as a species has gone backwards and devolved into a primitive barter system that relies on chance. That simply doesnt make sense to me ergo I refuse to entertain them. Its a choice and a personal choice and Im a very stubborn person...I could keep this up indefinately out of pure stubborness alone simply because I can ^

 

[Whiterose]

Sorry to have to disagree with you here, most of the randomness come in the production process. I used to design and build SPC (Statistical Process Control) instrumentation with the sole purpose of trying to eliminate out-of-tolerance items using statistical methods. There's a whole industry whose sole purpose is to try and remove the random element from production.

Sorry to have to disagree with you here, I am in production and produce millions of complicated components a year. Randomness does not happen. Yes, there is a chance for any item to be out of its statistical tolerance purely by numerical chance, but that is not random, and based upon SPC measurements, the more items we receive the more likely we will get one out of spec, but I am still working to 1 failure in 10 million.

 

[WindWpn]

To be fair.. if I took my car to the mechanic, and they gave it back to me running 35% worse...
I'd take it straight back, and make them fix it for FREE... That way my statutory rights shall not be infringed...

But yeah... if I take my car or motorbike to the garage and they made it worse... then they'd see it again in zero time.

Though RE: Engineering, do you find that following an engineered module its worse off then stock? In all my time/rolls, I have never found that to be the case (other than perhaps some additional mass).