Why are player complaining about grinding?

[HBK]

Sorry to have to disagree with you here, most of the randomness come in the production process. I used to design and build SPC (Statistical Process Control) instrumentation with the sole purpose of trying to eliminate out-of-tolerance items using statistical methods. There's a whole industry whose sole purpose is to try and remove the random element from production.

Yes of course but that's because it's considered good practice to not release, you know, out-of-specs products. Especially when it's not to the advantage of the buyer.

And then again it varies depending on what you're manufacturing but usually the random element is pretty low.

I mean either you have some faulty parts and stuff breaks, or parts are up to spec and quite logically the end result is up to spec.

But of course you have QA to check that the product you intend to sell will satisfy the buyer, because there's still a chance of -miiiiip- happening.

 

[MarkAusten]

Ever had yer car remapped? The results are not random at all and are guaranteed...I left the workshop with it in writing or my money back. Skimming the heads...guaranteed results. Cleaning and refurbing the turbo...guaranteed results.

How many cars have ye had modified that ye think its random? Its really not although there is a margin of error allowed, but negative results would be a money back scenario...if not, it ends up in the claims courts. Thats how real life works and thats how car modifications work in the modern world...done by real engineers not voodoo witch doctors ^

As I mentioned in a post above, one of the many things I have done is design and build SPC instrumentation which you probably already know about. However for those that don't, all mechanical processes work within certain tolerances and SPC is designed to try to catch production lines from producing out-of-tolerance items.

Nothing is exact and even the best shop working on your engine will only guarantee the results to within certain tolerances. That pretty much guarantees that two engines worked on by the same shop will only be the same to those tolerances and in the world of racing, those tolerances can mean the difference between winning and being second when the drivers are evenly matched.

The good drivers talk about a car feeling right, in the groove, or other such phrases and a little more crudely stated quite often. A driver will quite often prefer one car over another supposedly identical car because it seems to run better. Now part of that will be how the driver thinks he/she feels about the car but a lot of it will be the variation within those tolerances.

Those tolerances are quite large for ordinary cars and get better for the performance cars. The racing cars, F1 and the like, as you would expect have the best tolerances of all, but no two cars are exactly the same or ever will be.

Am I wrong?

 

[HBK]

Those tolerances are quite large for ordinary cars and get better for the performance cars. The racing cars, F1 and the like, as you would expect have the best tolerances of all, but no two cars are exactly the same or ever will be.

That's the point.

If there would be "realistic" randomness in RNGineering especially for G5 it would be something like a variation between 49% to 51% increase of let's say optimal mass or whatever stat you're improving.

Not 20% to 50% lottery.

 

[MarkAusten]

Yes of course but that's because it's considered good practice to not release, you know, out-of-specs products. Especially when it's not to the advantage of the buyer.

And then again it varies depending on what you're manufacturing but usually the random element is pretty low.

I mean either you have some faulty parts and stuff breaks, or parts are up to spec and quite logically the end result is up to spec.

But of course you have QA to check that the product you intend to sell will satisfy the buyer, because there's still a chance of -miiiiip- happening.

Agreed and the "degree' of low-ness depends on the item being made. A plastic bottle will have tolerances in the millimetres whereas high performance engines in the microns but, nevertheless, it is not possible to remove all the variation within those tolerances and in systems with many working parts all the tolerances combine, some additive, some subtractive, to pretty much ensure that the performance is different from one system to another.

 

[Whiterose]

That's the point.

If there would be "realistic" randomness in RNGineering especially for G5 it would be something like a variation between 49% to 51% increase of let's say optimal mass or whatever stat you're improving.

Not 20% to 50% lottery.

Exactly. The tolerances should be within defined parameters and specifications, not a lottery. I expect an engineer to tell me he can increase a factor by about 10-15%, not anywhere between -50 and +50%.

 

[HBK]

Agreed and the "degree' of low-ness depends on the item being made. A plastic bottle will have tolerances in the millimetres whereas high performance engines in the microns but, nevertheless, it is not possible to remove all the variation within those tolerances and in systems with many working parts all the tolerances combine, some additive, some subtractive, to pretty much ensure that the performance is different from one system to another.

Of course but that's usually within negligible territory.

For example most car engines' hp output are pretty much within very few percents of their initial specs. Even for low end 70hp engines.

 

[MarkAusten]

That's the point.

If there would be "realistic" randomness in RNGineering especially for G5 it would be something like a variation between 49% to 51% increase of let's say optimal mass or whatever stat you're improving.

Not 20% to 50% lottery.

A tolerance of 50% =/- 1% sounds good but in practice all that will happen is that the complaints about there now being enough variation in the results will start. Remove it completely so that everything is now 50% and the complaints will be that there is no variation in the modules, so what it the point.

I think in this particular case FD cannot win, there is no acceptable compromise that the payer base is going to be happy with.

Of course but that's usually within negligible territory.

For example most car engines' hp output are pretty much within very few percents of their initial specs. Even for low end 70hp engines.

In F1 that difference is unacceptable. A few percent is the difference between winning the race and coming last. It all depends on context and sometime a very small variation in tolerance can have unexpectedly large results.

 

[HBK]

A tolerance of 50% =/- 1% sounds good but in practice all that will happen is that the complaints about there now being enough variation in the results will start. Remove it completely so that everything is now 50% and the complaints will be that there is no variation in the modules, so what it the point.

I think in this particular case FD cannot win, there is no acceptable compromise that the payer base is going to be happy with.

No random variation was ED pre-RNGineering and I don't recall many players complaining "all ships feel the same "

With non-randomness you can more easily balance the trade-off part. Right now you can get a nice bonus AND a nice malus (meaning a very low malus).

With fixed outcomes you can say "OK G5 will net you +50% perf but you'll have to deal with +25% heat generation" or whatever trade-off applies for the module you're engineering.

 

[Whiterose]

I think in this particular case FD cannot win, there is no acceptable compromise that the payer base is going to be happy with.

On that we can agree.

 

[verminstar]

As I mentioned in a post above, one of the many things I have done is design and build SPC instrumentation which you probably already know about. However for those that don't, all mechanical processes work within certain tolerances and SPC is designed to try to catch production lines from producing out-of-tolerance items.

Nothing is exact and even the best shop working on your engine will only guarantee the results to within certain tolerances. That pretty much guarantees that two engines worked on by the same shop will only be the same to those tolerances and in the world of racing, those tolerances can mean the difference between winning and being second when the drivers are evenly matched.

The good drivers talk about a car feeling right, in the groove, or other such phrases and a little more crudely stated quite often. A driver will quite often prefer one car over another supposedly identical car because it seems to run better. Now part of that will be how the driver thinks he/she feels about the car but a lot of it will be the variation within those tolerances.

Those tolerances are quite large for ordinary cars and get better for the performance cars. The racing cars, F1 and the like, as you would expect have the best tolerances of all, but no two cars are exactly the same or ever will be.

Am I wrong?

No yer not wrong, there are subtle differences in every engine but the point is that its rarely a negative and even when it is, its not that much if the engineer is any good. I know how engines work, I do actually race on the track when I can afford the fees and a full set of tyres...local track can give ye the name if ye want? Ive been driving since I was 12 years old racing stock cars around a field so its fair to assume I know a thing or two about engines and cars.

One does not own what many think of as a "normal car"...its actually a one of a kind on the entire island of Ireland and has been very heavily modified from the original 320lbs torque/170bhp engine which was custom tuned by ducati to 212bhp. Thaq number was quoted to me before the modification took place so I got exactly what I paid for with no drawbacks whatsoever.

But this is massively off topic...Im merely making comparisons with real life and whats in the game is simply not very believable ^

 

[MarkAusten]

No random variation was ED pre-RNGineering and I don't recall many players complaining "all ships feel the same "

We were talking about high-performance racing engines here, not Elite ships

With non-randomness you can more easily balance the trade-off part. Right now you can get a nice bonus AND a nice malus (meaning a very low malus).

With fixed outcomes you can say "OK G5 will net you +50% perf but you'll have to deal with +25% heat generation" or whatever trade-off applies for the module you're engineering.

Except that means that all ships can be exactly the same, remember this is a game, and I expect the complaints to start about the players having to "grind" for materials and then end up with ships that are the same as someone else who only spent half the time collecting the materials for the mod.

As I said FD cannot win, there is no acceptable compromise here. I can play devil's advocate all day on issues like this, both for or against or even both.

In the end I think, since FD cannot win whatever they do, they should ignore most of the arguments on issues like these and decide on something and stick to it.

But hey, it's their game and their choice.

 

[RandomGun]

The crazy differences in RNG are so ludicrously out of scope that calling it engineering is insulting to the profession.

I think alternative names Tinkerers and Magicians have been suggested.... it may be something like this:


SCENE 1


Engineer: Hi! How may I help you?


Customer: Hi! I would like to buy a level 5 tuning for my FSD?


E: I don't sell tunings. I give them for free -- but only if I like you.


C: Oh... Is there something you would like me to do for you. I'm all ears.


E: Well, I buy exploration data. That's my thing. Please, bring data, much data.


C: Excellent. I'll go and get data, much data for you.


C: <Leaves. Honks like a mad man. Scans like a crazy.>




SCENE 2


C: <Returns after many long tiring hours.>


C: Here's the data. They are all from nearby systems because I didn't want to wander too far with my current FSD.


E: All data is good, near or far. I'm very happy with this data. This is my thing.


C: That's very good to hear. What about the level 5 FSD tuning?


E: Yeah that. Just bring me Arsenic, Chemical Manipulators and Datamined Wake Exceptions.


C: Excellent. I'll go now and buy them and be right back.


E: No no no. First of all, no one in the whole galaxy sells these things. Second, you have to find them by yourself, personally.


C: Really? Why don't they sell? And why do I have to find them personally?


E: About selling, I don't know. But finding is important -- it grinds you in a good way. It shapes a man out of you.


C: Grinding sounds a bit painful. But I'll give it a go.


C: <Leaves. Lands somewhere. Drives. Scans. Fires. Scans. Fires. Drives himself crazy with Arsenic.>




SCENE 3


C: <Returns after many very long tiring hours.>


C: Hi! I finally have all the data and materials. I really didn't know that Arsenic is that rare.


E: It is only rare if you think it is rare. Rarity is in your mind. As is grinding.


C: That sounds deep. But I may be too tired to understand it now. Anyway, could you please do the tuning?


E: Sure, just follow me.


C: <Follows Engineer and sees something interesting.>


C: That's a roulette wheel! Do you have a casino here too?


E: No. That table was for special effects, but I don't do weapons anymore.


C: <Doesn't understand anything that was just said. Continues following the engineer.>


E: Here we are. We have removed your FSD for tuning. Pretty, isn't it? Are you ready for the tuning?


C: Sure. Definitely.


E: Ok, then I'll start the incantation.


C: Wait! An incantation? I'm no engineer, but aren't you supposed to optimize the frame shift harmonics or something?


E: No, the drive is already manufactured to very tight tolerances. There's no way to improve it that way. So I'll do the incantation.


C: Wow, I'm fairly confused by now, but please do what you must do. I really need that jump range.


E: <Starts calling forces of stars and planets to unite inside the drive core.>


C: <Stares, a bit scared.>


E: <Throws powdered materials upon the FSD and howls in a loud voice.>


C: <Stares, eyes wide open.>


E/C: <...>


E: I'm sorry. You got some bad luck. Well, at least it is better than a level 3 FSD.


C: Eh...


E: Bring me some more Arsenic and we will try again. Remember, grinding is just in you mind.

 

[MarkAusten]

No yer not wrong, there are subtle differences in every engine but the point is that its rarely a negative and even when it is, its not that much if the engineer is any good. I know how engines work, I do actually race on the track when I can afford the fees and a full set of tyres...local track can give ye the name if ye want? Ive been driving since I was 12 years old racing stock cars around a field so its fair to assume I know a thing or two about engines and cars.

And that is exactly what I assumed.

One does not own what many think of as a "normal car"...its actually a one of a kind on the entire island of Ireland and has been very heavily modified from the original 320lbs torque/170bhp engine which was custom tuned by ducati to 212bhp. Thaq number was quoted to me before the modification took place so I got exactly what I paid for with no drawbacks whatsoever.

But I'll bet that output depends on several things like barometric pressure, fuel quality, exhaust back pressure and so on and that 212bhp was only as measured on a test bed where they could control the environment to a high degree.

But this is massively off topic...Im merely making comparisons with real life and whats in the game is simply not very believable ^

On that I can agree with you.

 

[verminstar]

I think alternative names Tinkerers and Magicians have been suggested.... it may be something like this:


SCENE 1


Engineer: Hi! How may I help you?


Customer: Hi! I would like to buy a level 5 tuning for my FSD?


E: I don't sell tunings. I give them for free -- but only if I like you.


C: Oh... Is there something you would like me to do for you. I'm all ears.


E: Well, I buy exploration data. That's my thing. Please, bring data, much data.


C: Excellent. I'll go and get data, much data for you.


C: <Leaves. Honks like a mad man. Scans like a crazy.>




SCENE 2


C: <Returns after long tired hours.>


C: Here's the data. They are all from nearby systems because I didn't want to wander too far with my current FSD.


E: All data is good, near or far. I very happy with this data. This is my thing.


C: That's very good to hear. What about the level 5 FSD tuning?


E: Yeah that. Just bring me Arsenic, Chemical Manipulators and Datamined Wake Exceptions.


C: Excellent. I'll go now and buy them and be right back.


E: No no no. First of all, no one in the whole galaxy sells these things. Second, you have to find them by yourself, personally.


C: Really? Why don't they sell? And why do I have to find them personally?


E: About selling, I don't know. But finding is important -- it grinds you in a good way. It shapes a man out of you.


C: Grinding sounds a bit painful. But I'll give it a go.


C: <Leaves. Lands somewhere. Drives. Scans. Fires. Scans. Fires. Drives himself crazy with Arsenic.>




SCENE 3


C: <Returns after very long tired hours.>


C: Hi! I finally have all the data and materials. I really didn't know that Arsenic is that rare.


E: It is only rare if you think it is rare. Rarity is in your mind. As is grinding.


C: That sounds deep. But I may be too tired to understand it now. Anyway, could you please do the tuning?


E: Sure, just follow me.


C: <Follows Engineer and sees something interesting.>


C: That's a roulette wheel! Do you have a casino here too?


E: No. That table was for special effects, but I don't do weapons anymore.


C: <Doesn't understand anything that was just said. Continues following the engineer.>


E: Here we are. We have removed your FSD for tuning. Pretty, isn't it? Are you ready for tuning?


C: Sure. Definitely.


E: Ok, then I'll start the incantation.


C: Wait! An incantation? I'm no engineer, but aren't you supposed to optimize the frame shift harmonics or something?


E: No, the drive is already manufactured to very tight tolerances. There's no way to improve it that way. So I'll do the incantation.


C: Wow, I'm fairly counfused by now, but please do what you must do. I really need that jump range.


E: <Starts calling forces of stars and planets to unite inside the drive core.>


C: <Stares, I a bit scared.>


E: <Throws powdered materials upon the FSD and howls in a loud voice.>


C: <Stares, eyes wide open.>


E/C: <...>


E: I'm sorry. You got some bad luck. Well, at least it is better than a level 3 FSD.


C: <Eh...>


E: Bring me some more Arsenic and we will try again. Remember, grinding is just in you mind.

Haha repped because its actually fairly accurate ^

 

[verminstar]

And that is exactly what I assumed.



But I'll bet that output depends on several things like barometric pressure, fuel quality, exhaust back pressure and so on and that 212bhp was only as measured on a test bed where they could control the environment to a high degree.



On that I can agree with you.

Im not an engineer so I did a very novel thing...I paid someone else to do it and got what I paid for...which isnt what happens in the game because the witch ddctors dont take cash ^

 

[HBK]

"Real life" performance and of course decay are pretty random yes but that's much more due to the randomness of the situation/context than to the dude who designed the device in the first place.

(of course one can't predict every situation and you could sometimes blame bad design for a bad performance due to the circumstances but that's besides the point, there is no such randomness in Elite anyway)

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Because... during the second world war, the RAF didn't make pilots grind for their aircraft. The RAF needed pilots there and then to fight for the greater cause.

The Thargoids are a threat to all humanity... so why would humanity impose a grind on it's pilots obtaining the modules needed to save humanity? Illogical! One would worry about saving humanity first then worry about credits or reputation afterwards.

We're already pilots.
We already have ships.
We already have armed ships.
We don't have the latest-greatest weapons systems meant to take on this new perceived threat - perhaps they'll be able to one-shot these flying artichokes.
Perhaps they'll prove to be an ineffective as our current weapons.

That does happen sometimes - just watch or rewatch Independence Day (the first one) to see what happens when we engage alien technology with the best weapons we can make.
So it may come to pass that our first best effort is insufficient, at which time we'll need to engineer them to be more effective or effective at all.

And that's assuming they even can be engineered.

We don't actually know what is going to be introduced yet.

Conclusion Jump Drive Engaged. 4... 3... 2... 1...

 

[MarkAusten]

Im not an engineer so I did a very novel thing...I paid someone else to do it and got what I paid for...which isnt what happens in the game because the witch ddctors dont take cash ^

I am an engineer and a curse tolerances!

 

[Vorxian]

hhahaha love these threads. cudos for good reading.

Unfortunately meetings over for me, but fortunately time to go home.

All I can say is that in ED, in a world governed by FDEV magic wands, anything is possible.

I'd like to see good interesting game play, not become a grind due to randomness of RNG rendering me a victim of a vicious repeat-loop of material collection

At least in real life, we can pay money to guarantee at least a base figure when purchasing someones services. I wouldn't mind a base figure slider that made the engineering job more expensive, even if many times over.. you know what you'll get at the end of it. I think for me, the not knowing, not able to see when the grind will end is what makes it worse. It may be one last time, it may be another 400 times for me to get that [random] 50ly jump range.. (or whatever, plucked number from the air in my brain)

take care guys, happy flying

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Because... during the second world war, the RAF didn't make pilots grind for their aircraft. The RAF needed pilots there and then to fight for the greater cause.

The Thargoids are a threat to all humanity... so why would humanity impose a grind on it's pilots obtaining the modules needed to save humanity? Illogical! One would worry about saving humanity first then worry about credits or reputation afterwards.

Not sure if you are aware but we are stll paying the americans back for their help now. Upgrades dont come free..... Or cheap!