Modes Why does PvP in open even exist ???

[AP Birdman]

My thoughts, off the top of my head. I'll give it some more thought when I get more time- but this is a start.

1) The flagging system not even need be a "module" but simply joining the appropriate PP faction. Done and done. People who aren't "pledged" to a faction are civilians and should be treated as such.
2) Bounty rewards can be negligible. As to the amounts, I feel it's subjective- but it should indeed be profitable but not excessively so.
3) As to bounties themselves, and my question prior about how to implement it so that exploits are prevented- I suggest diminishing returns for killing the same player within "X" amount of time. Subject to discussion, but I'd suggest no less than a couple hours in between, and the diminishing would be scaled by 25% or more of the reward with each consecutive kill. This not only prevents abuse of the system to rack up credits- but also incentivizes finding NEW targets instead of simply killing the same players repeatedly.
4) Crime and Punishment should be negated for the purposes of pledged players, period. If you're pledged to an opposing faction, you're fair game, plain and simple. Don't like war? Don't fly the colors or wear the uniform. Be a civilian and stay the hell out of the conflict.
5) I agree with implementing something that also incentivizes group play- but again, with diminishing returns added for repeatedly killing the same targets.
6) Crime and punishment needs a good overhaul. I'm not even going into the details of the current system because it's broken. All it does is reward crime without actually punishing.

Your thoughts?

Edit: Also pledging a faction should include a minimum 24 hour period before allowing you to quit or change factions. This prevents people exploiting the system by simply flagging on and off constantly.

The only issue I have is with #1. Like I said, having your PvP flag be a module on your ship would mean you could designate some of your ships as PvP ships and others as not. Even though I'm a pvper, I don't want to be messed with and hunted when I'm in my mining ship. It's built well enough to escape a player but not to be able to take someone down.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this was suggested in the DDA phase and shortly after release.
PvP'ers shot it down, as having a mix of vulnerable and invulnerable ships "breaks immersion" for them.
Plus it loops back to Frontier not wanting to have to look after a PvE mode (because PvP flag off = PvE mode in essence).
Or deal with people exploiting / cheating for the purpose of causing grief to those with their PvP flags set to off.

I liked a flagging system myself btw.
As long as people had to be docked to change the setting, it sounded good to me.



I don't know if "hardly anyone" or if five hundred thousand people are involved with Power Play nor why they are involved with it.
The only thing any player knows and can speak to, is that there are players playing PP, as the PP leader boards change every week.

Trying to claim you know how many people are doing it or why is eroding my faith in any discussion on the matter.
Because claims about how many people are playing PP (regardless of how generalised they are) is pure fiction plain and simple.

Only Frontier know how many people are involved and what they get up to, and they won't give out the information.



It excludes people who don't want to do PvP - as they do not play Open.
So you are taking content away from them, you're not including them at all.

I mean I could argue that the BGS not being the "PvP content" should be locked to Solo/PG.
That's not taking content away from PvP is it? As you can still PvP in PGs, right?
The fact you may not want to PvP in PGs is irrelevant though isn't it, under your argument.

You're also excluding console players who may not be able to afford the premium services and are locked in Solo - why should they lose PP?

Content locking is a bad idea, no matter which way you want to look at it.
I'd rather fix PvP than band aid it with discrimination over who can play it.

My flagging idea wouldn't make any ships invulnerable it would just mean that ships with the flag on can receive rewards from players they kill that also have the flag on but no rewards for players with the flag turned off.

In regards to powerplay, let's just agree to disagree. As for the number of players taking part, I truly don't know but I know about 200 people that play elite both pve-ers and pvpers and not one of them does powerplay other than the monthly 750 merits.

 

[enonymous]

If he dies he will not only have to pay full price to rebuy his ship but the bounty money will come straight out of his pocket. So 3 strikes means 30 million out of his pocket plus the cost of paying full price to get his ship back.

Using credits is a poor method to address the concern. Go grind a gold rush and then pester other players while in a vulture.

You commit assault or murder an innocent player. Every faction allied with the victim places a 1k/10k credit bounty on you.

The bigger change.

You cannot pay it with credits. You must run missions to clear the bounties. We'll call it community service. Go to an Interstellar Factor and run missions. You can pick which bounties to clear. If you turn yourself in or die, you'll be taken to a detention center and locked in a stock sidewinder while you run missions to clear all of the bounties (locked in a solo instance). The missions will pay what you would expect from a neutral faction.

The PvPer can force any player in open into PvP. Using the above method (or similar), the victim has a direct impact on the punishment of the criminal. I believe you would have a lot more people willing to play the sheep role. You show off how powerful your ship is, and, in return, you learn how many friends your victim has. Fight PvP with PvE.

The criminal can choose to ignore the bounties if they want, but the only way to ever get rid of them is to run missions. That sidewinder might have 1 ally or 10k allies. Building a 10 billion credit balance won't help since you have to run missions to clear the bounties. The larger your bounty, the longer it will take to work it off. Steal time. Pay with time.

No one is going to use it as a credit exploit. Build up a huge bounty and die. You'll be stuck shuttling biowaste to hutton orbital for the next 5 hours.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

The thing is, most of the ideas brought up, end up being things that improve PvP at the expense of PvE'ers.
Which is why PvE'ers give so much resistance and hostility towards those suggesting the ideas.
Let's be honest, if I jumped into a PvP only game and started saying it should have AI / NPCs - how fast would I get told to get lost and stop trying to ruin the game?
I'd guess 30 seconds before I'm told to go play Hello Kitty, what do you think?

The main idea we see around here is forcing PvE'ers to play Open Mode by content locked to Open or just plain old removing Solo/PG to push everyone into Open.
And I'm sorry to say, but we all know that has nothing to do with "improving" PvP. All it achieves is adding soft targets to Open until those people get bored being killed and leave the game.
Then you're right back to square one, no real rewards for PvP and not enough people to shoot at.

Also, the galaxy isn't supposed to be "highly populated". That was a point made by David Braben years ago.
It was part of the "rare and meaningful" quote you may have seen. The whole segment talks about people spreading out and interactions between players being "rare and meaningful".
There are 400 Billion systems to visit, you are supposed to be able to wander about and see no one, CMDRs are supposed to be "rare" and interactions "meaningful".
So even with Open Only, you're supposed to be very lonely away from CGs / events or player hubs.

I mean Sandro already pointed out the majority of players (by a significant margin) are already in Open.
Pushing the last of the player base there by force, isn't going to change that.
PMFs alone made the starting bubble feel emptier as folks went 21,000Ly away to support a faction. So it could be argued PMFs made the situation worse - depending on what bubble you're in.
For example, I did a whole month in Open before Christmas and seen only 2 people total, at founders world (Jameson) in 30 days.
Both were AFK at the time I seen them, yay for "rare and meaningful" eh?

Forced interactions isn't the way to go. What we need is actual mechanics and rewards for player interactions that encourage willing participants.
But you said it yourself and I have the same issue - no idea how to do it in a way it's not going to be used for exploiting or cheating.

Now if someone can come up with something that isn't at the expense of those who don't want PvP, I'll be right there shouting my support for it.
Because I want everyone to enjoy Elite: Dangerous as much as I do. Just not at my expense

So due the the vastness of the galaxy I should shoot everyone I see?

Got it!

 

[AP Birdman]

Using credits is a poor method to address the concern. Go grind a gold rush and then pester other players while in a vulture.

You commit assault or murder an innocent player. Every faction allied with the victim places a 1k/10k credit bounty on you.

The bigger change.

You cannot pay it with credits. You must run missions to clear the bounties. We'll call it community service. Go to an Interstellar Factor and run missions. You can pick which bounties to clear. If you turn yourself in or die, you'll be taken to a detention center and locked in a stock sidewinder while you run missions to clear all of the bounties (locked in a solo instance). The missions will pay what you would expect from a neutral faction.

The PvPer can force any player in open into PvP. Using the above method (or similar), the victim has a direct impact on the punishment of the criminal. I believe you would have a lot more people willing to play the sheep role. You show off how powerful your ship is, and, in return, you learn how many friends your victim has. Fight PvP with PvE.

The criminal can choose to ignore the bounties if they want, but the only way to ever get rid of them is to run missions. That sidewinder might have 1 ally or 10k allies. Building a 10 billion credit balance won't help since you have to run missions to clear the bounties. The larger your bounty, the longer it will take to work it off. Steal time. Pay with time.

No one is going to use it as a credit exploit. Build up a huge bounty and die. You'll be stuck shuttling biowaste to hutton orbital for the next 5 hours.

Im sorry dude but that all sounds extremely lame and over redundant. I appreciate the feedback though.

 

[Jockey79]

So due the the vastness of the galaxy I should shoot everyone I see?

Got it!

That's the one, you never know when or if you'll see another target so get while you can

I hear there is plenty of good spots in Federation space, you may want to look there

My flagging idea wouldn't make any ships invulnerable it would just mean that ships with the flag on can receive rewards from players they kill that also have the flag on but no rewards for players with the flag turned off.

Hows this any different to the current version of Open play?

People can shoot those with bounties and get rewards or shoot noobs / innocents and get nothing. Same thing.

The whole idea behind any flagging system is those who don't want PvP are not involved in PvP.
Your version makes everyone still involved regardless, so you might as well just not bother as it's no different to the current Open Play model.

As for Power Play, you want mode locking, fine. How about this then;

Lock Power Play out of Solo, PG and Open.
Make PP it's own mode you choose on the menu, and disconnect it from all the BGS / PMFs etc so the only thing you can do in the PP mode, is PP related stuff.
That way, anyone wanting to do missions, PMF stuff, BGS stuff etc still have Open, PGs and Solo as it was designed and People who want Power Play without interference from "other modes"
get exactly that. A pure PP mode that Open, PG and Solo cannot interfere with so PP becomes what it should be, the consensual PvP mode.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Using credits is a poor method to address the concern. Go grind a gold rush and then pester other players while in a vulture.

You commit assault or murder an innocent player. Every faction allied with the victim places a 1k/10k credit bounty on you.

The bigger change.

You cannot pay it with credits. You must run missions to clear the bounties. We'll call it community service. Go to an Interstellar Factor and run missions. You can pick which bounties to clear. If you turn yourself in or die, you'll be taken to a detention center and locked in a stock sidewinder while you run missions to clear all of the bounties (locked in a solo instance). The missions will pay what you would expect from a neutral faction.

The PvPer can force any player in open into PvP. Using the above method (or similar), the victim has a direct impact on the punishment of the criminal. I believe you would have a lot more people willing to play the sheep role. You show off how powerful your ship is, and, in return, you learn how many friends your victim has. Fight PvP with PvE.

The criminal can choose to ignore the bounties if they want, but the only way to ever get rid of them is to run missions. That sidewinder might have 1 ally or 10k allies. Building a 10 billion credit balance won't help since you have to run missions to clear the bounties. The larger your bounty, the longer it will take to work it off. Steal time. Pay with time.

No one is going to use it as a credit exploit. Build up a huge bounty and die. You'll be stuck shuttling biowaste to hutton orbital for the next 5 hours.

SDC wrote a post about this. It was really in depth. Making a criminal an actual profession. It mentioned a little of this.

But it would break the BGS and Crime and Punishment if it worked this way.

They just made updates to ATR and how rebuys work. Someone killing super weak ships all the time based off their playtime. Their Rebuy gets reduced, they dont lose as much.

Someone with a high notoriety their rebuy is much higher, some cutter guys have had over 1 bil in rebuy to get their ship back or they lose it.

It works well right now. People just dont see it yet.

 

[Mike Reacher]

Damn hard to pick a point here.
I played with about 100 to 150 Open players the last six months. Almost all Power Play. Something some one said .... PP is not BGS. It is BGS. All other stuff is earn credits, trading, massacre missions, make a heap of moolah, and ....... undermine and fortify. It all turns into BGS.
Trading and exploring can be termed NOT BGS but everything has a very small push against the BGS.
I guess the only thing that is not BGS is .......... Kill Thargoids.
Thargoids? I'm outta here! Eat my dust.

Tried PP in solo. No different to open.

 

[Jockey79]

...

They just made updates to ATR and how rebuys work. Someone killing super weak ships all the time based off their playtime. Their Rebuy gets reduced, they dont lose as much.

Someone with a high notoriety their rebuy is much higher, some cutter guys have had over 1 bil in rebuy to get their ship back or they lose it.

It works well right now. People just dont see it yet.

Got any links for update C&P info please?
Will add this post to WoI as a placeholder for any official info.

Thanks for the info btw, good to know FD are trying to balance it.
Would hate to know what my Cutter re buy would be if I turned to a life of crime.

Tried PP in solo. No different to open.

Exactly.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Got any links for update C&P info please?
Will add this post to WoI as a placeholder for any official info.

Thanks for the info btw, good to know FD are trying to balance it.
Would hate to know what my Cutter re buy would be if I turned to a life of crime.



Exactly.

Whenever the Crime and Punishment patch was. Can't remember. Too lazy to dig. Its there though.

 

[Jockey79]

Whenever the Crime and Punishment patch was. Can't remember. Too lazy to dig. Its there though.

Okay, cheers.

TBh, I just updated the WoI so I'll not bother changing anything until the next update on it - I'm feeling lazy as well.

Must be 2019, making us lazy

 

[FrodoHobbits]

Basically, PvP is used for ganking and griefing? Abuse of others?

Working as intended

 

[Rampant]

What on Earth? I never said anything about who deserves more and this isn't even a question of who deserves more. Pvpers get nothing, NOTHING for what they do and I am referring to legitimate, consensual PvP.
PvP is an enjoyable, legitimate part of the game yet there's no reason, no teams, no rewards, NOTHING! I'm not saying that we deserve more than everyone else, I'm just saying we deserve something instead of getting crapped on by Fdev.

What do you mean, you get nothing? That's a lie...

You get 2 concrete rewards.

First is the "number of players ships destroyed" is increased by one every time you win a PvP duel. With that go the bragging rights that are apparently important to PvP combateers.

Second is the enjoyment you gain from pursuing your favourite aspect of E: D.

One of the things I enjoy in E: D is driving around in the SRV. Another is taking screenshots of my ship with unusual or picturesque views in the background. Both of those things gain no "in game" reward. I'm not crying about it. Because I enjoy it for its own sake.

Maybe you should take a leaf out if the same book?

Just a friendly suggestion...

Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Rat Catcher]

What do you mean, you get nothing? That's a lie...

You get 2 concrete rewards.

First is the "number of players ships destroyed" is increased by one every time you win a PvP duel. With that go the bragging rights that are apparently important to PvP combateers.

Second is the enjoyment you gain from pursuing your favourite aspect of E: D.

One of the things I enjoy in E: D is driving around in the SRV. Another is taking screenshots of my ship with unusual or picturesque views in the background. Both of those things gain no "in game" reward. I'm not crying about it. Because I enjoy it for its own sake.

Maybe you should take a leaf out if the same book?

Just a friendly suggestion...

Yours Aye

Mark H

But remember Your SRV rebuy if you lose it is far less than a meta-built ship rebuy...

(I used a similar suggestion as PvP isn't a 'recognised profession' )

 

[Rampant]

But remember Your SRV rebuy if you lose it is far less than a meta-built ship rebuy...

(I used a similar suggestion as PvP isn't a 'recognised profession' )

Please remind me who are the types of players most often to be seen shouting out the mantra

"*Risk* versus Reward"?


SRV driver isn't a recognised profession, either, and neither is astro-photographer, but I'm still not crying about it...

Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Rampant]

Also, another trope, while I've just remembered:


"It's supposed to be Elite: *DANGEROUS*, sheesh..." <facepalm>



I'm a big proponent of the obverse of that notion -

"If *you're* the one making the galaxy "Dangerous" for me, then who's the one making it "Dangerous for *you*, in your wing of mega-build uber-engineered combat optimised death-ships?".

Honestly, I have a proper old chuckle to myself with that one, whenever I see the top quote written on this forum, LOL.


Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Deleted member 110222]

New player here... what are you guys even talking about? LOL.

PVP in open is necessary because i like the freedom to do anything i want in space including kill people for no reason.

Welcome.

You'll find your stance to be unpopular, although correct, on these forums.

Many members here utterly abhor the idea of players shooting other players in a game where literally every ship is able to damage other ships.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Also, another trope, while I've just remembered:


"It's supposed to be Elite: *DANGEROUS*, sheesh..." <facepalm>



I'm a big proponent of the obverse of that notion -

"If *you're* the one making the galaxy "Dangerous" for me, then who's the one making it "Dangerous for *you*, in your wing of mega-build uber-engineered combat optimised death-ships?".

Honestly, I have a proper old chuckle to myself with that one, whenever I see the top quote written on this forum, LOL.


Yours Aye

Mark H

The other guys in mega-build uber-engineered combat optimised death-ships

 

[Rampant]

The other guys in mega-build uber-engineered combat optimised death-ships

Nice sound-bite.
Not really true, though, is it?


As a direct example... One of the last times I did a CG in Open it was trade fetch to Lave station.

Several wings of FdLs were sat just outside the no fire zone. None of any of them engaged any of the others.

Next untrue sound-bite, please...

 

[Jockey79]

Welcome.

You'll find your stance to be unpopular, although correct, on these forums.

Many members here utterly abhor the idea of players shooting other players in a game where literally every ship is able to damage other ships.

Many members abhor FORCED open play suggestions or locked content suggestions.

Most folks don't care if people in Open want to blow each other.
As long as the rest of us don't have to join in and we can carry on in PGs and Solo.

 

[Dietger]

New player here... what are you guys even talking about? LOL.

PVP in open is necessary because i like the freedom to do anything i want in space including kill people for no reason.

Welcome to Elite and the liberty in Open.
Glad you embrace your freedom and responsibilities.

Well, we have an ancient dispute on going here whether or not PVP is a part of Elite and when and how it may be tolerated.
I for one welcome the liberty Frontier grands players in Open. Some may not be very happy about how things unfold in Open.

I started the thread so everyone may find her or his stance on the matter.

Have fun and check six!

S!