You claim it is all a personal attack and yet you have still utterly failed to provide any evidence whatsoever of your central premise (thread title) that Elite is failing. On what do you base this claim? Go on - evidence please.
Engineers Why is Elite Failing (in my opinion)? Negative Feedback Loops - An Analysis
- Thread starter Colonel Kenney
- Start date
You claim it is all a personal attack and yet you have still utterly failed to provide any evidence whatsoever of your central premise (thread title) that Elite is failing. On what do you base this claim? Go on - evidence please.
It is failing because it isn't fun.
I was a kickstarter (actually a double kickstarter - two accounts purchased.) I don't care if the mods boot me off. FD need some direction with this game.
...isn't fun for you, (and many others).
I'm having a blast (as are many others).
You should be able to understand the problem of presuming a widespread failure of the game based on your own personal experience.
You only need to look at Steam Charts or Steam Spy to see the trend of falling numbers after every release of content. At Powerplay there were a lot of players online simultaneously, that then quickly dropped, Horizons again saw an influx but this was smaller than PowerPlay, and then we have Engineers, which showed the smallest increase in players than the other two.
So there you have a trend forming over time. It is true that you get more people coming back to the game on release of new content, but if the content is poor, buggy etc it wont hold them. This seems to fit the curve here - barely a blip for Engineers http://steamcharts.com/app/359320#All Just because you and a few of your like minded people are having fun, does not make a successful game. (I'm waiting for the inevitable 'you can't rely on Steam stats, they don't mean anything' hollow response. I do not believe that we have access to any better stats until the Devs release their figures, so they seem to be the best number to go on.)
So that is at least some evidence that the game is not succeeding, can you back up your claims that it is?
Well known contributers to the Elite community such as Kornelieus, Obsidiant Ant, Thrudds, Erimus and others have voiced their dislikes of 2.1
That is telling in itself....Im glad you are enjoying the game...but with the community this splintered, unless the game is fixed, there can be nothing positive said about the long term health of Elite.
I didn't make the assertion that 'Elite is failing' so you know very well that the burden of proof doesn't fall on me.
Nevertheless, Steam stats may be of some value, but unless analysed long term they are not very revealing.
ED is Frontier's flagship product so I would expect to see downturns company-wise if money was being lost on ED (but again, that is more long term).
They have voiced their dislikes, yes, and made valid criticisms, yes, but none to my knowledge have claimed that the game is failing or will fail anytime soon as a consequence of 2.1 design choices. Interestingly, most actually seem cautiously optimistic that Frontier will listen to the criticisms they've made and improve the RNG, among other issues. Hardly doom-sayers.
Take that in consideration against those who've invested heavily. Predictions can be made based on customer feedback, a history of repeated events, and knowing turnover couldn't possibly be any more efficient that ROI may not see any further performance. Those checking out are likely to cause even more development regression.
Thanks for contributing nothing except drool like a fanboi.
Yeah I will do it ....
You simply cannot go by Steam charts or Steam spy as a fair percentage of people who play the game don't launch it that way. Thats hardly evidence of a failing game, no more than any other game either. You look at any game outside of the usual suspects (DOTA, CS GO, etc.) and you will see the exact same figures. SO those games must be failing as well then? Pure poppy .
When Frontier pull the plug on the servers then its a failed game.
According to a recent survey, ~55% of a few thousand who participated claimed to be launching the game through steam. With that kind of data, figures can be estimated.
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And that's the route to Daily Mail statistics, which ultimately go out looking for the easiest way to prove a point the provider themselves hold. Statistics like that cannot project failure. You need to know company projections, market demographics, economic outlays and returns, a whole bunch of data. And bottom line, the reason people are looking to "prove" it's failing is not because they want to analyse Elite as a product, it's to bolster their personal frustration with a game, and thereby validate their assertion as being more regarded, more accepted, and more relevant than anyone else's.
Elite to me is failing when it is said to be. Without a whole load of in depth data, statistics for and against are just numbers plucked from the air.
The question shouldn't be "proving it's failing", it should be working "to make it better". We don't need tabloid approaches to provide pressure to get our desired/entitled solutions. We need to communicate.
True, and I have said so many times. I also pointed out that the data is pretty much all we have to go on (that I know about). Highlighting that not all people launch the game this way is misleading as a fair percentage do (or used to) launch the game this way.
You will also note that the thread is about the game 'failing' not having yet 'failed'. The idea is to stop the failure of the game by discussing what might have gone wrong.
Comparing your games to E D :
DOTA 2 (Released 2013) http://steamcharts.com/app/570#1y
CS GO (Released 2013 or so) http://steamcharts.com/app/730
You will notice that over the 3 year period their user base grew as opposed to E D which saw the inevitable steam release increase, then on-sale increase then Horizons, but since then a slow trend downwards. You also have to consider why the drop off. Overwatch, The Division, Rainbow 6 Siege were all released this year. Similar themed games that would attract players away. What similar themed game to E D has come out that would account for the same drop? NMS hasn't released yet, neither has SC. Starpoint Gemini 2 Warlords is similar but not. Eve?
Also, choosing games that have 1+ million and 600,000+ player online simultaneously and comparing that to elite that, in the last week (steam stats only!) had 6909 peak players (extrapolate that to 35,000 players 20% steam, 80% e d) and implying that they are dying is a misinterpretation of statistics.
This is the answer, which is the purpose of the forums, of course.
I will disagree that the numbers are plucked from the air, though. My connection is hard wired
Just an observation: You have one group saying the game is not failing, but don't back up those claims with anything other than 'Its only failing when FD pull the plug' and such, and another group of people pulling actual data, from, arguably, the only place we can, and it shows a steady decline in player numbers over a year long period, who would you be inclined to believe?
Plenty of it.. and read the entire thread. There has been other discussion and other proof. Considering how many titles they've sold and the amount of people actually playing in on average at any one time - its not good. I mean look at the titles ahead of it and its quite embarrassing. For such a major patch the usual spike was bad and has dropped significantly back to the bottom levels. People are fed up. Evidence is in the forums - as they are at a fervor of hate and disappointment I've never seen before.
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On other posts I've listed the 80 or so other titles that are ahead of ED in rankings on Steam when it comes to average players etc.
Some of these titles are seriously embarassing. I mean how can Age of Empires have 2x the amount of live players?
Here are the titles as of right now LOOK AT SOME OF THESE CRAPPY GAMES!! PEOPLE ARE STILL PLAYING MORE ARMA 2 !!!! And this is the high time!
1. Dota 2 536,683 1,075,307 483,230,650
2. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive 412,906 638,088 249,328,143
3. Grand Theft Auto V 55,651 78,330 22,709,284
4. Team Fortress 2 54,558 77,800 37,603,980
5. ARK: Survival Evolved 53,738 78,089 31,572,544
6. Sid Meier's Civilization V 52,083 87,959 31,651,186
7. Football Manager 2016 46,128 67,572 27,296,045
8. Garry's Mod 44,175 55,539 22,783,424
9. Total War™: WARHAMMER® 42,716 111,909 22,218,225
10. Arma 3 37,698 56,185 18,173,274
11. Rocket League 37,607 48,555 18,219,612
12. Fallout 4 33,810 74,283 22,655,174
13. Rust 32,990 47,100 19,319,346
14. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 32,730 40,764 16,863,082
15. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 29,752 53,576 13,252,854
16. Warframe 28,594 42,887 19,909,221
17. Hearts of Iron IV 27,018 40,623 2,853,054
18. Unturned 25,995 37,745 14,017,011
19. Terraria 23,420 30,112 12,144,685
20. Path of Exile 19,967 26,111 5,803,030
21. Clicker Heroes 16,481 18,184 8,868,065
22. Counter-Strike 16,190 22,875 9,813,753
23. War Thunder 15,239 23,531 7,893,063
24. Stellaris 14,032 67,710 15,887,165
25. DARK SOULS III 13,795 44,930 14,017,985
26. SMITE 13,285 19,890 7,176,437
27. Tree of Savior (English Ver.) 13,239 53,277 18,205,349
28. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege 12,505 14,643 5,985,012
29. PAYDAY 2 11,689 16,167 5,836,555
30. H1Z1: King of the Kill 10,677 15,118 6,246,934
31. Call of Duty: Black Ops III 10,344 22,951 6,251,499
32. Euro Truck Simulator 2 10,272 18,897 6,405,801
33. AdVenture Capitalist 10,241 11,298 3,489,090
34. Football Manager 2015 9,708 14,575 6,029,039
35. Cities: Skylines 9,169 15,212 4,143,437
36. Left 4 Dead 2 9,096 18,322 6,202,341
37. DayZ 8,702 13,335 4,496,274
38. Europa Universalis IV 8,692 12,917 4,998,944
39. Mount & Blade: Warband 8,459 11,963 4,597,885
40. Borderlands 2 8,333 10,762 4,168,878
41. Brawlhalla 7,920 10,077 3,410,831
42. Stardew Valley 7,896 15,548 5,849,822
43. Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition 7,880 13,493 4,960,371
44. XCOM 2 7,823 10,358 3,197,117
45. Counter-Strike: Source 7,782 11,212 4,654,463
46. Knight Online 7,478 11,458 5,910,558
47. FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn 7,441 7,567 2,921,596
48. Spacewar 6,935 10,015 4,116,920
49. DOOM 6,891 31,623 6,483,444
50. Tom Clancy's The Division
51. Trove 6,616 10,254 4,220,133
52. Age of Empires II: HD Edition 6,508 8,259 3,235,670
53. Factorio 6,399 10,376 3,990,025
54. Company of Heroes 2 6,348 7,971 3,138,729
55. Don't Starve Together 6,311 12,565 4,117,483
56. Heroes & Generals 6,297 10,789 3,812,727
57. Robocraft 6,231 12,240 4,618,804
58. Insanity Clicker 6,183 6,795 261,260
59. 7 Days to Die 5,787 8,522 3,525,304
60. The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth 5,751 8,242 3,910,566
61. Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition 5,054 8,120 2,871,240
62. TERA 4,848 6,905 2,921,633
63. METAL GEAR SOLID V: THE PHANTOM PAIN 4,812 8,513 2,532,333
64. Marvel Heroes 2016 4,756 6,213 2,456,555
65. Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead 4,718 7,030 2,549,420
66. Warface 4,577 6,337 2,371,147
67. The Forest 4,530 5,120 1,958,444
68. H1Z1: Just Survive 4,512 7,056 2,538,562
69. Counter-Strike Nexon: Zombies
70. Elite Dangerous 4,452 6,909 2,437,560
AS EPIC as ELITE COULD HAVE BEEN - this is where we are!!
Some of these titles are seriously embarassing. I mean how can Age of Empires have 2x the amount of live players?
Here are the titles as of right now LOOK AT SOME OF THESE CRAPPY GAMES!! PEOPLE ARE STILL PLAYING MORE ARMA 2 !!!! And this is the high time!
1. Dota 2 536,683 1,075,307 483,230,650
2. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive 412,906 638,088 249,328,143
3. Grand Theft Auto V 55,651 78,330 22,709,284
4. Team Fortress 2 54,558 77,800 37,603,980
5. ARK: Survival Evolved 53,738 78,089 31,572,544
6. Sid Meier's Civilization V 52,083 87,959 31,651,186
7. Football Manager 2016 46,128 67,572 27,296,045
8. Garry's Mod 44,175 55,539 22,783,424
9. Total War™: WARHAMMER® 42,716 111,909 22,218,225
10. Arma 3 37,698 56,185 18,173,274
11. Rocket League 37,607 48,555 18,219,612
12. Fallout 4 33,810 74,283 22,655,174
13. Rust 32,990 47,100 19,319,346
14. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 32,730 40,764 16,863,082
15. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 29,752 53,576 13,252,854
16. Warframe 28,594 42,887 19,909,221
17. Hearts of Iron IV 27,018 40,623 2,853,054
18. Unturned 25,995 37,745 14,017,011
19. Terraria 23,420 30,112 12,144,685
20. Path of Exile 19,967 26,111 5,803,030
21. Clicker Heroes 16,481 18,184 8,868,065
22. Counter-Strike 16,190 22,875 9,813,753
23. War Thunder 15,239 23,531 7,893,063
24. Stellaris 14,032 67,710 15,887,165
25. DARK SOULS III 13,795 44,930 14,017,985
26. SMITE 13,285 19,890 7,176,437
27. Tree of Savior (English Ver.) 13,239 53,277 18,205,349
28. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege 12,505 14,643 5,985,012
29. PAYDAY 2 11,689 16,167 5,836,555
30. H1Z1: King of the Kill 10,677 15,118 6,246,934
31. Call of Duty: Black Ops III 10,344 22,951 6,251,499
32. Euro Truck Simulator 2 10,272 18,897 6,405,801
33. AdVenture Capitalist 10,241 11,298 3,489,090
34. Football Manager 2015 9,708 14,575 6,029,039
35. Cities: Skylines 9,169 15,212 4,143,437
36. Left 4 Dead 2 9,096 18,322 6,202,341
37. DayZ 8,702 13,335 4,496,274
38. Europa Universalis IV 8,692 12,917 4,998,944
39. Mount & Blade: Warband 8,459 11,963 4,597,885
40. Borderlands 2 8,333 10,762 4,168,878
41. Brawlhalla 7,920 10,077 3,410,831
42. Stardew Valley 7,896 15,548 5,849,822
43. Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition 7,880 13,493 4,960,371
44. XCOM 2 7,823 10,358 3,197,117
45. Counter-Strike: Source 7,782 11,212 4,654,463
46. Knight Online 7,478 11,458 5,910,558
47. FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn 7,441 7,567 2,921,596
48. Spacewar 6,935 10,015 4,116,920
49. DOOM 6,891 31,623 6,483,444
50. Tom Clancy's The Division
51. Trove 6,616 10,254 4,220,133
52. Age of Empires II: HD Edition 6,508 8,259 3,235,670
53. Factorio 6,399 10,376 3,990,025
54. Company of Heroes 2 6,348 7,971 3,138,729
55. Don't Starve Together 6,311 12,565 4,117,483
56. Heroes & Generals 6,297 10,789 3,812,727
57. Robocraft 6,231 12,240 4,618,804
58. Insanity Clicker 6,183 6,795 261,260
59. 7 Days to Die 5,787 8,522 3,525,304
60. The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth 5,751 8,242 3,910,566
61. Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition 5,054 8,120 2,871,240
62. TERA 4,848 6,905 2,921,633
63. METAL GEAR SOLID V: THE PHANTOM PAIN 4,812 8,513 2,532,333
64. Marvel Heroes 2016 4,756 6,213 2,456,555
65. Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead 4,718 7,030 2,549,420
66. Warface 4,577 6,337 2,371,147
67. The Forest 4,530 5,120 1,958,444
68. H1Z1: Just Survive 4,512 7,056 2,538,562
69. Counter-Strike Nexon: Zombies
70. Elite Dangerous 4,452 6,909 2,437,560
AS EPIC as ELITE COULD HAVE BEEN - this is where we are!!
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The (reasonable) question you pose, presumes that there is one or other to believe. If you can't see behind the hill, even if you can see some bushes on one side, you can't definitively say whether a park or residential estate likes beyond. Partial data can be misleading as no data at all. Mainly because one is working from a preconception to validate rather than an answer to quantify. People who want to see it fail/not fail will argue to their desire, and that desire ultimately is to validate their opinion.
However, while "fail" is offering vague Steam data as evidence, this is where it DOES become tabloid. Because even in Elite WAS failing, the natural presumption it is because of the developments. Despite what a few people say on Steam, people will still purchase a game with few others in the field. If it was failing, it could be for a whole load of other reasons, including marketing, natural decline (all games carry a certain longevity which can be hard to balance out with new blood). When I bought Elite, everyone was complaining about Powerplay, I still went for it because it was the sort of game I wanted to try. So yes, mixed reviews, drop offs in certain markets won't help, but it isn't evidence of "failing". And even if Steam WAS evidence of failing, the argument here isn't really to indicate that Elite is in issue, it is to highlight that certain people don't feel the game is doing what they wish and want to highlight its failing to validate their argument.
Does the Engineers require work? Yes. Is it a fail? Who knows if we're talking product wise. That's the point. Make subjective arguments, sure, but don't try and validate them with rough data cherry picked to support it is my advicee. It's a futile exercise.
I think a lot of players in communities ramp up their own irritation by constantly making the same criticisms. Sometimes when enough people say its failing others tend to believe it without question, which again, can be another negative campaign tactic. Ask politicians.
Um, using the only data available is not cherry picking Sans... In fact, that is exactly what you're supposed to do when presenting anything.
I'm not saying that no one is doing it but taking data from steam, the forums, and the game itself is what we have and what we can use. Now personally, I say Elite is failing because the devs won't fix long standing, serious gameplay issues such as broken instancing, missions, and spawning seeds that only ever give you eagles and adders for instance. Among the other problems introduced recently and the ,what is the opinion of a great many, garbage reliance on RNG for absolutely everything they can; the game has stagnated.
I want it to flourish. Really badly; which is why I've taken to the forums to be so vocal over the last month or so. But when you don't have a foundation, you don't have a house.
I'm not saying that no one is doing it but taking data from steam, the forums, and the game itself is what we have and what we can use. Now personally, I say Elite is failing because the devs won't fix long standing, serious gameplay issues such as broken instancing, missions, and spawning seeds that only ever give you eagles and adders for instance. Among the other problems introduced recently and the ,what is the opinion of a great many, garbage reliance on RNG for absolutely everything they can; the game has stagnated.
I want it to flourish. Really badly; which is why I've taken to the forums to be so vocal over the last month or so. But when you don't have a foundation, you don't have a house.
...Ask politicians.
A bit drastic don't you think?!
While I can understand cherry picking the data and massaging it to achieve your end goals (statistician theory 101) this data is just that - data - no massaging was undertaken. We're arguing how many angels can dance on the end of a pin here.
You think that there is not enough data to make an assumption, I think that there is enough data to indicate a possible problem. Theory vs Reality maybe? In theory you are correct and you cannot make an absolute ruling. In practice, if I saw these numbers relating to a piece of hardware that was to be installed in a 737 for example, I would not do it.
Can you to offer 'less vague' data to support that position that the game is either stagnant or growing (bearing in mind I have already said that this data is all I have to go on?)
Dunno how many times you need to be repeated told that many players do not use Steam.
Deal with it.
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Dunno how many time you need to be repeated told that many players do use Steam.
Deal with it.