Why is there more malice aimed at people wanting mining the way it was than towards the people who exploited it?

[Tividar]

Won't speak for others, but for me the problem boils down to the "exploitation" having zero negative effect on my personal experience. If anything, what's gone on with mining since the (was it 3.0?) addition has increased engagement and opportunities for interactions if you want them. The only downside I see is a subset of people who confuse grind with achievement and feel devalued when others get to play with the same toys. I feel bad for their angst, but I think its badly misplaced.

My bar has always been whether or not the game mechanic makes it easier or harder to play with people I want to play with. If Frontier were to come out with an ARX purchasable AXi package that gave Full Engineering access, unlocked Guardian tech, and gave enough credits to buy and outfit an AX Krait I'd be all for it. People would scream that so-and-so didn't "earn" [lol] it. But I'd have been able to Xeno-hunt with my daughter months ago instead of looking at another week before she's finished unlocking the Guarding Tech.

Exclusivity based on achievement is barely tolerable. Exclusivity based on grind is !@#$%!

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

Difference of opinions and all. I know we all have them and I know we all want a game we can enjoy as one, but it can certainly be without the high and mighty, I have done this for years and years, condescending tone. I expect that in the kiddie Fortnite and SC forums.

Agreed, but please, read the last paragraph of the first post I made again. I am not telling anyone how to play, being condescending or high and mighty. I'm simply expressing an opinion.

In a more compassionate argument against huge mining profits bringing accelerated progress, I think the new player loses out of something quite amazing. I posted once on here about the magical part of the game when you're about 3/4 up the way of the steep learning curve, you're not dying every time you leave a station, you've learned about some aspects of the game, you're on this intermediate level, it is simply one of the coolest levels to be in on this game. By leaving mining in as it was, people by-pass that, they get the idea, are encouraged to believe, that the game is about, getting out of a Sidewinder and into an FC as fast as possible, You're robbing them, IMO, of a great experience, a real learning curve to overcome that results in a feeling of achievement that (again in my opinion), is unlikely to be found, sitting in a ring blasting rocks all night.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Why not just bring mining down to their levels?

Because those levels are too slow. That's a level of masochism I'm not willing to accept.

 

[Jmanis]

Most older MMO's have catch up mechanics, up to and including paid character boosts.

And for most MMOs, they don't trash the game activities of players who have been around a while in the process.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

And for most MMOs, they don't trash the game activities of players who have been around a while in the process.

The forums of those MMO's would disagree. Go read the WoW forums, especially the classic forums. Look at the speculation about Burning Crusade Classic and why they don't want patch 2.4.3 to be what it starts with.

 

[Jessa Doom]

WHAT A JOKE!!!

As of a couple of days ago we had an update and part of that was about the re-balance of mining making it good again, some lie that is as nothing has changed in fact it's worse thanks frontier for taking the urine out of us.

Before update mining was bad all most useless and now it's worse to a unplayable part of game, I've been in a few Low temperature Diamond hot spots since update patch and nothing there not one diamond surface or deep-core, yes plenty of other worthless stuff.

WELL DONE FRONTIER FOR A BIG JOKING LIE, WASTING US PLAYERS TIME MINING.

 

[Danger Man]

Won't speak for others, but for me the problem boils down to the "exploitation" having zero negative effect on my personal experience. If anything, what's gone on with mining since the (was it 3.0?) addition has increased engagement and opportunities for interactions if you want them. The only downside I see is a subset of people who confuse grind with achievement and feel devalued when others get to play with the same toys. I feel bad for their angst, but I think its badly misplaced.

My bar has always been whether or not the game mechanic makes it easier or harder to play with people I want to play with. If Frontier were to come out with an ARX purchasable AXi package that gave Full Engineering access, unlocked Guardian tech, and gave enough credits to buy and outfit an AX Krait I'd be all for it. People would scream that so-and-so didn't "earn" [lol] it. But I'd have been able to Xeno-hunt with my daughter months ago instead of looking at another week before she's finished unlocking the Guarding Tech.

Exclusivity based on achievement is barely tolerable. Exclusivity based on grind is !@#$%!

This is the most reasonable response I’ve seen by far, so kudos to you for that.

I’ve been playing since 2013, I did the grind, I had my fun, it took me about 5 years to get an Anaconda, and it doesn’t bother me in the slightest if people can earn an Anaconda faster now. It doesn’t devalue the grind I did, or my experience with the game, and I think frankly, that the amount of salt I’ve seen about how easy things are now is really petulant, coming from (I assume) grown adults. If people value the grind and the experience of doing so, then I think this game offers more than enough of that for them, and how others earn credits or play the game is none of their business. Mining LTDs was a totally optional activity that you had to seek out, after all. There are plenty of commodities and career paths that pay less for ‘immersive’ progression if that’s what you want.

Anecdotally, I personally bought the game for both my brothers who bounced off it hard years ago because of the grind, and have since been drawn back by the faster progression that mining offered. They’re both now in Pythons and enjoying the game in an entirely new light, doing other things than mining. Surely the increased engagement with the game by people who otherwise would be playing something else is a good thing for all of us? The player count the last few months has been the highest it’s ever been. That is a good thing. Even if the mining nerf was badly needed (it was), I think the melodrama from certain individuals in this community about Harmless Condas paints us all in a really bad light. We’re grown ups, and this is a video game.

 

[Sic Mundus]

Won't speak for others, but for me the problem boils down to the "exploitation" having zero negative effect on my personal experience. If anything, what's gone on with mining since the (was it 3.0?) addition has increased engagement and opportunities for interactions if you want them. The only downside I see is a subset of people who confuse grind with achievement and feel devalued when others get to play with the same toys. I feel bad for their angst, but I think its badly misplaced.

My bar has always been whether or not the game mechanic makes it easier or harder to play with people I want to play with. If Frontier were to come out with an ARX purchasable AXi package that gave Full Engineering access, unlocked Guardian tech, and gave enough credits to buy and outfit an AX Krait I'd be all for it. People would scream that so-and-so didn't "earn" [lol] it. But I'd have been able to Xeno-hunt with my daughter months ago instead of looking at another week before she's finished unlocking the Guarding Tech.

Exclusivity based on achievement is barely tolerable. Exclusivity based on grind is !@#$%!

This is a very well articulated response. It seems that some veterans of Elite have this pre-defined conception of what "endgame" is or what constitutes a feeling of accomplishment based on how tedious the struggle to achieve certain milestones in the game are. This mentality further pushed by the impression that because they suffered through the game's worst points in it's inception, that their efforts are less valuable due to the game's, (or any game for that matter), natural progression from starting stages to a more polished game. This is a mindset that needs to be dealt away with.

I'm only 2 months into this game. I was lucky to join during this wild gold rush from Borann to Fleet Carriers to Eggsploit. I amassed a TON of credits thanks to the egg and just mining in general. However, I too wanted the egg exploit to be done away with and mining to receive a slight nerf. It was too good and you won't find any rational player who thought the egg was a reasonable mechanic that needs to make a comeback. More so, mining was just much too lucrative compared to any other activity in the game. It needed a slight nerf, but the other means of labor in the game needed to be brought up to par.

I went from a Sidewinder > Adder > Vulture > Krait Phantom > Anaconda > T9 > Cutter in my small time playing this game. I've gotten a Fleet Carrier with enough credits for over 20 years of maintenance. It feels fantastic. Credits aren't a concern or a blockade to my personal goals I've set for myself in the game. I'm closer to my space fantasy of being a galactic explorer, mining in unknown systems, with a fleet of ships in tow on my fleet carrier, traversing the stars, mapping planets as I expand the sphere of human influence across the Milky Way. This is the goal and fantasy I've set for myself. The thing about a game like this is that endgame is determined by the player. Ships are hardly a marker of progression since a base ship really means nothing until you've built it to your specific task with appropriate modules and engineering (a whole other system of grind in this game). And even then, a ship is just a vehicle to maneuver the galaxy. It's not a "get things easy" stick you can beat the game with.

Some CMDRs need to stop imposing their principles of fun and accomplishment as a blanket to what should be the norm for all CMDRs. A newcomer earning a top tier ship like an Anaconda over a few hours or days of starting this game should not devalue your months of work when the game was less polished. Your fun should not be determined by how someone else plays the game. I've seen folks say that this game is an MMORPG and it is by definition. Nevertheless, it's more like a single player game in an open world environment. Personal progression has almost no affect or bearing on the playerbase let alone the galaxy. We aren't here running dungeons or raids, defeating the highest difficulty to attain "World First" achievements or titles for beating harder content. A CMDRs progression in the game hardly influences another CMDRs gameplay besides pvp to a degree.

You buy a ship, you mod it out, and you fly. The ingame economy is barely an economy and more just a board with materials and numbers as opposed to a living breathing supply/demand organism. There aren't intuitive systems in place like EVE that have ripple effects on the game and it's players. Practically everything done in Elite is solo while in an open world. At most, we can influence faction states and systems which in it's current form, is hardly an intuitive mechanic.

The game needs balance. It needs a healthy rewards system for all activities so that the no-lifers who want to sink tons of hours can make a reasonable amount of credits, but the folks who are parents, working professionals, and occasional hobbyist still feel like they're receiving a reward for their little time spent in game.

 

[Konan]

Because those levels are too slow. That's a level of masochism I'm not willing to accept.

Define too slow and what's just right. How long should it take for someone to go from sidewinder to Anaconda? How should it take for a new player to get a FC? Cause I sure as he** don't won't this game to turn into NMS...so easy that it's no fun.

 

[Konan]

This is a very well articulated response. It seems that some veterans of Elite have this pre-defined conception of what "endgame" is or what constitutes a feeling of accomplishment based on how tedious the struggle to achieve certain milestones in the game are. This mentality further pushed by the impression that because they suffered through the game's worst points in it's inception, that their efforts are less valuable due to the game's, (or any game for that matter), natural progression from starting stages to a more polished game. This is a mindset that needs to be dealt away with.

I'm only 2 months into this game. I was lucky to join during this wild gold rush from Borann to Fleet Carriers to Eggsploit. I amassed a TON of credits thanks to the egg and just mining in general. However, I too wanted the egg exploit to be done away with and mining to receive a slight nerf. It was too good and you won't find any rational player who thought the egg was a reasonable mechanic that needs to make a comeback. More so, mining was just much too lucrative compared to any other activity in the game. It needed a slight nerf, but the other means of labor in the game needed to be brought up to par.

I went from a Sidewinder > Adder > Vulture > Krait Phantom > Anaconda > T9 > Cutter in my small time playing this game. I've gotten a Fleet Carrier with enough credits for over 20 years of maintenance. It feels fantastic. Credits aren't a concern or a blockade to my personal goals I've set for myself in the game. I'm closer to my space fantasy of being a galactic explorer, mining in unknown systems, with a fleet of ships in tow on my fleet carrier, traversing the stars, mapping planets as I expand the sphere of human influence across the Milky Way. This is the goal and fantasy I've set for myself. The thing about a game like this is that endgame is determined by the player. Ships are hardly a marker of progression since a base ship really means nothing until you've built it to your specific task with appropriate modules and engineering (a whole other system of grind in this game). And even then, a ship is just a vehicle to maneuver the galaxy. It's not a "get things easy" stick you can beat the game with.

Some CMDRs need to stop imposing their principles of fun and accomplishment as a blanket to what should be the norm for all CMDRs. A newcomer earning a top tier ship like an Anaconda over a few hours or days of starting this game should not devalue your months of work when the game was less polished. Your fun should not be determined by how someone else plays the game. I've seen folks say that this game is an MMORPG and it is by definition. Nevertheless, it's more like a single player game in an open world environment. Personal progression has almost no affect or bearing on the playerbase let alone the galaxy. We aren't here running dungeons or raids, defeating the highest difficulty to attain "World First" achievements or titles for beating harder content. A CMDRs progression in the game hardly influences another CMDRs gameplay besides pvp to a degree.

You buy a ship, you mod it out, and you fly. The ingame economy is barely an economy and more just a board with materials and numbers as opposed to a living breathing supply/demand organism. There aren't intuitive systems in place like EVE that have ripple effects on the game and it's players. Practically everything done in Elite is solo while in an open world. At most, we can influence faction states and systems which in it's current form, is hardly an intuitive mechanic.

The game needs balance. It needs a healthy rewards system for all activities so that the no-lifers who want to sink tons of hours can make a reasonable amount of credits, but the folks who are parents, working professionals, and occasional hobbyist still feel like they're receiving a reward for their little time spent in game.

Heck, let's just give out Anacondas on day one then. Maybe we should just start out with a FC for everyone. I mean, it's all about the outcome of your dream....not the path it took to get your dream....right?

 

[Crasharr]

So you're telling me you're not aware that even new players can purchase in-game currency if they want to mitigate a bit of the grind so they can enjoy some perks even if they're a new player?

I'm beginning to wonder why it triggers people so much that others be afforded a bit of a headstart.

Because it is unfair for those who came before. Its the sign of the times that spoiled milennials want everything handed to them without doing the work.

 

[MishaTX]

FCs were intended as long term goals. Now they look more like participation trophies.

Oh well, sign o' the times, I guess.

 

[Sic Mundus]

Heck, let's just give out Anacondas on day one then. Maybe we should just start out with a FC for everyone. I mean, it's all about the outcome of your dream....not the path it took to get your dream....right?

I said nothing of giving away content for free. This response of yours is a wee bit emotional over a statement or idea I did not declare. And yeah, it's all about the outcome of the dream, it can also be the path to that dream. Or both. Or neither. It can be about the destination, not the journey. It can be about the journey, not the destination. It can be both and it can be neither. That's the point. YOU are not the arbiter and gatekeeper of other player's playstyle. That is up to the individual to decide. No one wants anything for free here. No one wants anything handed to them. Why you phrased this as a "gotcha!" statement, I've no clue, as I'm advocating that a player is free to construct what they feel is most fun to them and how they tackle this game while some others seem to want to define what fun means for everyone.

All I stated in my post is that the game has no real path of progression and that it is solely dictated by the individual player's aspirations. That the systems in place should be balanced enough to accommodate both those who seek to grind and the player who seeks a bit of rigid toughness in their gameplay. That the system feels rewarding to those who want to play at their particular pace. Nothing about free ships or giving things away.

When you're exploring thousands of light years outside the bubble, do you really just sit around and grumble in envy that some players got a ship or two with less effort than you did? Do you seethe with anger because some players chose a lax approach to their in-game journey? How does a newcomer's Anaconda affect your daily login? What does it matter to you? What's that old adage? Comparison is the thief of joy.

Because it is unfair for those who came before. Its the sign of the times that spoiled milennials want everything handed to them without doing the work.

Unfair? Should the game not evolve over time? Improving on old systems, building new ones, revising philosophies and expanding on it's foundation? Why are some CMDRs so set on the idea that no one should enjoy a more streamlined system of any kind just because "back in my day, we had to walk up hills, both ways"? Just because you played the game when it was barely hashed out doesn't mean everyone else should suffer through the same sandwich you willingly kept devouring. Is your enjoyment really that intertwined with how others choose to enjoy themselves?

Whenever a feature gets added to the game that makes a task slightly easier then what you slogged through, do you demand reparations for your time and feelings? And while we're throwing around generalizations based on generations, why are boomers so against any change and assume any suggestion asking for a change of something is "wanting everything handed to us without work"?

 

[Falcon_D]

This perplexes me. In a lot of threads I see people who are in favor of returning mining to being a bit more profitable than it is now being heavily criticized.

Personally, I am fine with a nerf, but I think it should've been a sell price nerf rather than messing with the content of rocks. For instance, in a triple LTD I got more Tritium than I did LTDs. 63 Tritium and 34 LTD to be exact in mining at about 2 hours. Either way, I believe the sledgehammer on mining came down too hard and that's why there are "unintended" effects happening. Yes mining was broken and needed to be fixed, but the exploiters made it worse ten-fold.

So why the hate towards people than still want to be profitable in a game where the grind is brought to the extreme with just about everything you do? Is it just easier to criticize these people because they can be identified and those that exploited mining to game breaking proportions can't really be identified? The nerf hurts everyone. Especially new players still sitting in their Sidewinders. People are being told to enjoy the grind, find other ways to make money, or just go have fun "flying around", yet the exploiters go unpunished, made away with billions, and simply continue on their way while those that played fair get the reap the aftermath and then get criticized for being angry about it.

I remember in the Division 2, there was a DPS exploit that allowed solo players to finish missions in minutes that took a team of 4 to finish in hours. The punishment for this exploit? Accounts got rolled back for weeks. Gear was taken away, credits were taken away, and you started back before the exploit was known even if some of that gear or money was earned the right away.

How does the mining boom affect your gameplay?

And I call it a boom and not and exploit because the only exploit I recognize, during the boom, was the resetting of the egg using the SLF.

It is any different to have a bonus weekend or a special event in Division 2 or any such game, where you could get extras and freebies? If you missed the event you were out of luck?

I remember in GW2 that there were special events where you could get special drops and these events were 1 day events at a specific time. If you could not be on at that time due to work, sleep, etc. then too bad.

There were people who went around asking for the gear from these special events cause they missed it. But by and large they were ignored. The one thing that these companies did was hold other events so more people could get similar stuff.
I.e. there will be other money making schemes in ED. Not mining, then disco Conda. Not combat, then trade. Not trade, then Robigo smuggling runs (I think it was Robigo. Man that was seriously fun and frustrating.) Or surface scan boom. Or neutron star explorer boom.

Is FDev now supposed to go around taking away the credits of the players due to other players using the booms. If that’s the case newer players are going to have a negative billion balance.

 

[Bantha]

For me, credits just happen to be earned whilst I go about enjoying the game. I don’t play specifically to make credits.

And that’s a big distinction.

Some people have different agendas and different reasons for playing. Some want all ships and a FC as quickly as poss, and they’ll mine and mine to get there. No interest in working through the various ships at all, “end game” is their only goal.

I find that dull. I like flying round, interacting, blasting criminals, running missions, gradually improving on my ship’s outfitting, then moving on to a better ship over time.

I remember first going from the Sidey to an Eagle. Wow! 3 hard points!! Not that I could afford to fit 3 weapons lol. Then eventually A rating it out. I loved the journey, the process. Back in the day, when I - eventually - got myself a cobra, it was joyous!

Some people don’t want that, they just want fast results, everything now. Fair enough, what do I care? Do whatever you want. I can get as many credits as I want to as well, I just choose not to because I play how I want to play.

Some enjoy the journey, others enjoy the destination. Whatever floats your boat...

Do your thing, enjoy the game and have fun - whatever that means to you

 

[Jaxterix]

I've been playing Elite for a very long time. I'm grateful of having experienced my own grind through the years, and I don't care whether new players are now achieving in two weeks what took me years to achieve. In the end, my own personal journey is mine alone, and I wouldn't change it one bit. They want to get it all right away? Go for it! That doesn't affect my gameplay at all.

I wont attack a new player flying a small ship, but I do find it amusing to blow up unengineered novice cutters, so keep them coming!

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

This again.
The actual Egg/SLF method only allowed you to make around twice what you could have legitimately. At 1.7M a ton for LTD, I was pulling 500M an hour just mapped mining. Meanwhile, you could get closer to 900M-1B an hour using the SLF/Egg method. The profits were massive either way.
Without the SLF/Egg method, these miners would have still been multi billionaires in a matter of hours.

Not quite because they also 'exploited' the fixed market for the gems which dosen't exist anymore since the nerf ;so would of made considerably less with more effort required to find a selling point.

 

[CMDR X]

I am a simple man.

Rocks in rings should be 100% RNG and exclusive to each visit. No map mining and other stupid shinanigans.
Market prices should have real world values and behavior based on supply/demand and no higher load penalty.
If the station needs 100t and you have 150t, you should get full price for your 100 and a gratuity for the other 50.
I you don't like it, go sell those next door.

I like to mine but I don't like having it as a second job and I especially despise not being given a meaningful alternative.
Combat, Exploration and Missions should get a serious buff. Those are 3/4 of the game man!
I really don't see what all the confusion is about Mr. Fdev.
X.

 

[Konan]

I said nothing of giving away content for free. This response of yours is a wee bit emotional over a statement or idea I did not declare. And yeah, it's all about the outcome of the dream, it can also be the path to that dream. Or both. Or neither. It can be about the destination, not the journey. It can be about the journey, not the destination. It can be both and it can be neither. That's the point. YOU are not the arbiter and gatekeeper of other player's playstyle. That is up to the individual to decide. No one wants anything for free here. No one wants anything handed to them. Why you phrased this as a "gotcha!" statement, I've no clue, as I'm advocating that a player is free to construct what they feel is most fun to them and how they tackle this game while some others seem to want to define what fun means for everyone.

All I stated in my post is that the game has no real path of progression and that it is solely dictated by the individual player's aspirations. That the systems in place should be balanced enough to accommodate both those who seek to grind and the player who seeks a bit of rigid toughness in their gameplay. That the system feels rewarding to those who want to play at their particular pace. Nothing about free ships or giving things away.

When you're exploring thousands of light years outside the bubble, do you really just sit around and grumble in envy that some players got a ship or two with less effort than you did? Do you seethe with anger because some players chose a lax approach to their in-game journey? How does a newcomer's Anaconda affect your daily login? What does it matter to you? What's that old adage? Comparison is the thief of joy.



Unfair? Should the game not evolve over time? Improving on old systems, building new ones, revising philosophies and expanding on it's foundation? Why are some CMDRs so set on the idea that no one should enjoy a more streamlined system of any kind just because "back in my day, we had to walk up hills, both ways"? Just because you played the game when it was barely hashed out doesn't mean everyone else should suffer through the same poopoo sandwich you willingly kept devouring. Is your enjoyment really that intertwined with how others choose to enjoy themselves?

Whenever a feature gets added to the game that makes a task slightly easier then what you slogged through, do you demand reparations for your time and feelings? And while we're throwing around generalizations based on generations, why are boomers so against any change and assume any suggestion asking for a change of something is "wanting everything handed to us without work"?

No one is grumbling and yes that is exactly what you're implying....you want the game easier. There is nothing good about an outcome without a path to that outcome. I'll say it plainly, you don't want to work for anything or very little of necessary. What I don't want this game to become is NMS.....so Damn easy that it isn't worth playing. Casual games wind up just like casual gamers......they don't stick around long.....

 

[Rat Catcher]

I do find it odd that so much 'passion' is evoked because some 'other' player is getting 'something' and any particular player doesn't like it...

So much talk of grind, and players getting, let's suggest, for example, 'big ships' without having taken months & months of grind to get them - must be 'worth shooting' comes a comment from a player who didn't want to grind for a Fleet Carrier, but has one anyway... (perfect hypocrisy in my opinion )

Why be bothered by what someone else does or doesn't do in the game? Are other players not permitted to play their own way, even the hypocrites?

It would be nice if the current mining mess is sorted out soon, I'll have to mine for an hour a week if I want to buy my own Fleet Carrier in a reasonable time scale (supplementing my income from doing the ineresting in-game stuff) and as hotspots aren't currently it is a little deflating.